Liturgical police?

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Bonnie

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Several of our EMs have a habit that bothers me a lot - when they are moving the Blessed Sacrament to & from the tabernacle (which is in an alcove to the side of the altar) they will genuflect to the tabernacle or bow to the altar with the Blessed Sacrament in their hands.

I finally got up the courage to mention this to our priest (it takes courage because I am very shy) and he told me that he wasn’t the liturgical police & if it bothered me I should talk to the people doing it.

When I got home we (husband & I) were discussing this & our adult son asked why I was bothered. I explained the best I could that these EMs are treating Jesus as if He wasn’t there & continuing to do it sends a message to anyone who notices that the tabernacle & altar are more important than He is.

My son said he thought I was just sticking my nose into what didn’t concern me.

My husband understands, but now I’m wondering. If it doesn’t bother the priest, am I being a nosy busybody? 😊

If I’m not, should I try to get the courage to talk to these EMs? Or should I leave it alone because I did bring it up to the priest?
 
I don’t think it’s necessary to bow or genuflect towards the tabernacle, or anything for that matter, when one is holding the Body or Blood of Christ.

With that said, the priest most certainlyis, in fact, the liturgy police, or at least he should be.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I don’t think it’s necessary to bow or genuflect towards the tabernacle, or anything for that matter, when one is holding the Body or Blood of Christ.

With that said, the priest most certainlyis, in fact, the liturgy police, or at least he should be.
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I totally agree with you! And Bonnie, I think it is great that you noticed this.

Three or four years ago I attended a meeting with our priest and prospects of those wanting to be EMHC and this is one of the things he said. "do not bow to the altar or genuflect before the tabernacle when you are holding the Blessed Sacrament in your hands. So, I would say you were right on!

The priest was wrong & should have not been rude to you. And if I were in your place, I would not try to speak with your EM’s
 
Bonnie said:
Several of our EMs have a habit that bothers me a lot - when they are moving the Blessed Sacrament to & from the tabernacle (which is in an alcove to the side of the altar) they will genuflect to the tabernacle or bow to the altar with the Blessed Sacrament in their hands.

I finally got up the courage to mention this to our priest (it takes courage because I am very shy) and he told me that he wasn’t the liturgical police & if it bothered me I should talk to the people doing it.

When I got home we (husband & I) were discussing this & our adult son asked why I was bothered. I explained the best I could that these EMs are treating Jesus as if He wasn’t there & continuing to do it sends a message to anyone who notices that the tabernacle & altar are more important than He is.

My son said he thought I was just sticking my nose into what didn’t concern me.

My husband understands, but now I’m wondering. If it doesn’t bother the priest, am I being a nosy busybody? 😊

If I’m not, should I try to get the courage to talk to these EMs? Or should I leave it alone because I did bring it up to the priest?
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I guess I was lucky Bonnie . Roughly 15 years ago , when I’d first begun to bring Holy Communion to the sick, I was corrected from doing a similar kind of thing by my parish priest at that time (…appears he wasn’t too worried about going for a little cruise in the litugical police patrol car -🙂 ) .

For some background :

Directly before the final blessing at morning Mass during the week , all extraordinary ministers who were bringing Holy Communion to the sick would come forward to the sanctuary to receive their respective *pyxides - each containing the Blessed Sacrament which had been consecrated at that Mass and which was to be brought to the sick. We duly returned to our pews, received the final blessing and went .

When I would go up to receive the pyx at this time ,upon receiving it, I would first kiss it, because it held my Saviour, but when I would return to the pew, just before heading back down the 3 or 4 steps leading up to the sanctuary, I would turn, face the tabernacle , and genuflect.

After Father T. saw this happen twice, he took me aside the next day before Mass and had a little talk with me:

“Listen, I noticed that when you come up to receive the Communion to be brought to the sick , you do something a little funny ; you turn and genuflect to the tabernacle … you don’t need to do that.”

I answered that I was doing it out of respect for Jesus- present in the tabernacle. He told me that was good, but he said that, “In these circumstances, you just concentrate on him in the pyx - that’s what you have to do. When you have him here, in your hands (he said, showing me a pyx) , you don’t need to genuflect to Him in the tabernacle additionally. It can look a little funny to people”

It wasn’t mean, I wasn’t offended (and he didn’t even have to show me a badge). It was also completely congruent to your line of thinking. 👍

You’ve mentioned it to the priest . You’ve done your job. He’s the one responsible for the EMHC’s. It’s still difficult thought to have it continue to happen in front of you at Mass - it’s a distraction .

What I try to do when I’m distracted by those types of things, is to say a little prayer for the ones distracting me (and that usually spurs me on to tell Jesus I’m sorry for any times that I personally may have been negligent or careless about His Presence in the Blessed Sacrament).

( * pyxides appears to be the correct term for the plural of pyx)
 
Im a sacristan in my parish and I get on people with they don’t respect the sanctuary like they should.
I dont get the point of having the tabernacle off to the side anyway.

You should try to talk to some of the EMHC.
 
Bonnie said:
I finally got up the courage to mention this to our priest (it takes courage because I am very shy) and he told me that he wasn’t the liturgical police & if it bothered me I should talk to the people doing it.
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This bothers me the most. The Priest IS the safeguard and often the first line of defense against abuses or just poor liturgical policies.
 
Bonnie said:
Several of our EMs have a habit that bothers me a lot - when they are moving the Blessed Sacrament to & from the tabernacle (which is in an alcove to the side of the altar) they will genuflect to the tabernacle or bow to the altar with the Blessed Sacrament in their hands.

I finally got up the courage to mention this to our priest (it takes courage because I am very shy) and he told me that he wasn’t the liturgical police & if it bothered me I should talk to the people doing it.

When I got home we (husband & I) were discussing this & our adult son asked why I was bothered. I explained the best I could that these EMs are treating Jesus as if He wasn’t there & continuing to do it sends a message to anyone who notices that the tabernacle & altar are more important than He is.

My son said he thought I was just sticking my nose into what didn’t concern me.

My husband understands, but now I’m wondering. If it doesn’t bother the priest, am I being a nosy busybody? 😊

If I’m not, should I try to get the courage to talk to these EMs? Or should I leave it alone because I did bring it up to the priest?
Click to expand...
It sounds like the priest is not fulfilling his obligation to direct the liturgy and sacraments in his parish. It would also seem that this parish’s EMHCs haven’t had thorough training. They’ve been, correctly, told to genuflect to the tabernacle and bow to the altar. What might be missing from their training is that you don’t make any act of reverence to an empty tabernacle (I infer from your scenario it’s empty) and they should make no acts of reverence when carrying the Sacred Body or Precious Blood of our Lord. If I remember correctly, when I was a server we were taught not to genuflect or bow when carrying anything.
 
Bonnie said:
Several of our EMs have a habit that bothers me a lot - when they are moving the Blessed Sacrament to & from the tabernacle (which is in an alcove to the side of the altar) they will genuflect to the tabernacle or bow to the altar with the Blessed Sacrament in their hands.

I finally got up the courage to mention this to our priest (it takes courage because I am very shy) and he told me that he wasn’t the liturgical police & if it bothered me I should talk to the people doing it.

When I got home we (husband & I) were discussing this & our adult son asked why I was bothered. I explained the best I could that these EMs are treating Jesus as if He wasn’t there & continuing to do it sends a message to anyone who notices that the tabernacle & altar are more important than He is.

My son said he thought I was just sticking my nose into what didn’t concern me.

My husband understands, but now I’m wondering. If it doesn’t bother the priest, am I being a nosy busybody? 😊

If I’m not, should I try to get the courage to talk to these EMs? Or should I leave it alone because I did bring it up to the priest?
Click to expand...
I would suggest calling your Diocese Office of Worship and discuss it with them, If things of this nature takes place regularly in your Parish, things that are not up to what the GIRM says how they should be, the Office of Worship will probably suggest you write one of those dreaded letters to the Bishop. Be sure of yourself, and God Bless you. Actually your priest has put you in an awkward position, forcing you to either not be concerned about what goes on in your Parish or do something about it. Father is certainly not doing as he should.
 
During Mass the movement from tabernacle to altar is to be done by a priest or deacon.
 
buffalo said:
During Mass the movement from tabernacle to altar is to be done by a priest or deacon.
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**
This is good to know, and these posts very enlightening. There is always something new to be learned about the Faith and the way in which things should be done. **
 
fall_fox said:
I would suggest **calling your Diocese Office of Worship **and discuss it with them, If things of this nature takes place regularly in your Parish, things that are not up to what the GIRM says how they should be, the Office of Worship will probably suggest you write one of those dreaded letters to the Bishop. Be sure of yourself, and God Bless you. Actually your priest has put you in an awkward position, forcing you to either not be concerned about what goes on in your Parish or do something about it. Father is certainly not doing as he should.
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I agree with this. As a lay person who is not a fellow-EMHC, you probably won’t get far talking directly to the EMHCs (unless you know them personally). You have spoken to your priest and gotten a very strange answer. The next logical step is the proper office at your diocese.
 
buffalo said:
During Mass the movement from tabernacle to altar is to be done by a priest or deacon.
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Yup. I recently told my parish deacon about this and he was very receptive. However, he is talking to the bishop about it. I’m kind of wondering why he can’t just institute the change himself.

Also, EMHC are not to come to the altar until the priest has first consumed. And the Blood is not to be poured into chalices after it has been consecrated. The wine should be poured into chalices after the offertory.
 
smndtupidisaftr said:
.

Also, EMHC are not to come to the altar until the priest has first consumed. .
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You are right, they are not to approach the altar. But there is nothing to say that they cannot assemble in the Sanctuary area, if that is what they have been instructed to do.

You must analyse it ; the reason they must not approach the altar is to avoid any confusion between laity and priest, not that the sanctuary is too holy/ the EMHCs are too unworthy to be in that area. If there is no confusion, because the EMHCs are standing back from the altar, then no problem.

It all depends on the layout of the church. In our parish, we EMHCs are frequently reminded that we must start on our way from the nave as soon as the Agnus Dei starts, otherwise there is an awkward pause during which the attention of the congregation is on the EMHCs as they are the only ones doing anything while everyone else is kneeliing. And, believe me, despite what some seem to think, the average EMHC does NOT want to draw attention to themselves.

It’s not enough to be aware of the rules. One must see them in context, realise the reason behind them, and above all, use commonsense.
 
paperwight66 said:
You are right, they are not to approach the altar. But there is nothing to say that they cannot assemble in the Sanctuary area, if that is what they have been instructed to do.
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Or they could stand to the back or something else.
 
paperwight66 said:
You are right, they are not to approach the altar. But there is nothing to say that they cannot assemble in the Sanctuary area, if that is what they have been instructed to do.

You must analyse it ; the reason they must not approach the altar is to avoid any confusion between laity and priest, not that the sanctuary is too holy/ the EMHCs are too unworthy to be in that area. If there is no confusion, because the EMHCs are standing back from the altar, then no problem.

It all depends on the layout of the church. In our parish, we EMHCs are frequently reminded that we must start on our way from the nave as soon as the Agnus Dei starts, otherwise there is an awkward pause during which the attention of the congregation is on the EMHCs as they are the only ones doing anything while everyone else is kneeliing. And, believe me, despite what some seem to think, the average EMHC does NOT want to draw attention to themselves.

It’s not enough to be aware of the rules. One must see them in context, realise the reason behind them, and above all, use commonsense.
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Another reason for re-installation of altar rails is so that the sanctuary can be clearly defined and EMHCs don’t get confused. 🙂
 
buffalo said:
During Mass the movement from tabernacle to altar is to be done by a priest or deacon.
Click to expand...
The OP has not specified if this was during Mass or not. I move Jesus between the main Church and the chapel before and after Mass when I set up.

Regarding moving Jesus during the Mass, I’m not sure that it always has to be moved by a member of the clergy.

The priest is not to leave Jesus alone at the altar. If the priest consecrates during the liturgy of the Eucharist and the tabernacle is far enough away and there is no other preist or deacon, what is the priest to do? Jesus is retrieved from the tabernacle just before the Sanctus but is already present on the altar. Some churches have the tabernacle in a small side chapel or alcove as the OP stated, and I have seen weekday Masses where an EMHC will assist the priest in moving Jesus from the tabernacle to the altar so that he does not have to leave the altar while Jesus is present.

Again, the priest will not leave the altar but to go a short distance if Jesus is present, and someone has to move the ciboria from the tabernacle to the altar. Someone has to do it.

-Tim-
 
paperwight66 said:
It all depends on the layout of the church. In our parish, we EMHCs are frequently reminded that we must start on our way from the nave as soon as the Agnus Dei starts, otherwise there is an awkward pause during which the attention of the congregation is on the EMHCs as they are the only ones doing anything while everyone else is kneeling.
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You get to kneel for the Agnus Dei?! Lucky you. We’re not allowed to. The only reason I’ve been given is that no one in Europe kneels for that. But the UK isn’t really part of Europe, is it. 😉

But my knees still want to kneel, even after 11 years of not being allowed to.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Another reason for re-installation of altar rails is so that the sanctuary can be clearly defined and EMHCs don’t get confused. 🙂
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I doubt the EMHCs are confused. The priest is in charge of training the EMHCs in his parish about when to approach and where to stand. If they are circled round the altar for the Eucharistic Prayer, it is the pastor who has given them permission.

Pray for our priests, that they all are strengthened in faith, humility, obedience to the Pope, orthodoxy and orthopraxy. I pray that we all are!
 
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