Liturgy of the Hours for Laymen Before Vatican 2?

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Off topic, proving nothing whatsoever of the points you are trying to make as to your negative attitude towards laity saying the LOTH.
 
I think I see where you’re coming from- Lay people need to embrace their own vocation…?

But that also does not discount them from LOTH and other ministries…
 
You could go on, but it would not be worth the electrons you would have abused.

Your knowledge of what the Church teaches is showing - or should I say, lack of knowledge.
 
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Agreed. LOTH might be a great way to maintain a presence of God and to keep they interior conversation going.

But the lay shouldn’t do it because priests do it.
 
I started praying it at the beginning of this past November. I’ve previously encountered it before, so I was familiar, but I decided to start praying them as part of the Nazarite Challenge. I haven’t missed any of the prayers since the beginning of November (with the exception of the Office the Readings - I haven’t been doing those yet). It gave me something that my prayer life lacked - routine and structure. Praying every ~3 hours instead of maybe once or twice a day has allowed me to better remember God throughout the day. I plan to continue praying the hours for quite some time, considering the structure has helped me stay away from sin a whole lot more than anything else I’ve previously done.

So, I guess that raises that before mentioned 6 to 7 now.
 
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Edward_H said:
As I said, it’s part of a larger “let’s pretend we’re priests” problem. tks.
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And see, this is the problem you have. You have this mistaken notion that the Liturgy of the Hours is something priestly in particular. You could not be more wrong, and I have cited a dogmatic constitution from an Ecumenical Council that it’s prayer the Church encourages EVERYONE.

The reason you’re so negative is because your premise is so badly flawed. The Liturgy of the Hours is not primarily Priestly Prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours is Christian Prayer. It is first foremost, the prayer of the baptized, not the prayer of the priests. The Church binds her priests to it because she has mandated them as her official pray-ers by virtue of their ordination. But it is also the Church who gives it to her baptized lay faithful to pray in their own capacity as the baptized.

So your notion of “pretending to be priests” is just so so so wrong. You are so far from the mind of the Church. The main reason we pray the Liturgy of the Hours is not to pretend to be priests, but to exercise our own common priesthood of the baptized in the words the Church gives. There is no better prayer we can offer in our station, outside of our participation in the Mass itself.

You need to divest yourself of the Liturgy of the Hours being a priest’s prayer. It is the Christian’s prayer, the Church’s prayer, and Christ’s prayer.
 
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Disciplinary notions can always be adjusted. So Pope Pius did not like table altars. Fine. Now we do. There’s nothing dogmatic about those.

Black vestments remain a colour for the liturgy of the dead.

And your points are irrelevant because the Church has spoken on the matter and this is not relevant to your complaints about the Liturgy of the Hours. That the Church binds her priests is a discipline. That she recommends it to the faithful is discipline. But that it is the prayer of the entire People of God, and is the prayer of all the baptized is doctrine, and therefore Magisterial.

She is the authority, not you. Therefore, if the Church in her wisdom has made it accessible so that the laity can pray THEIR PRAYER again, then praise God for that because we have regained our patrimony and the prayer that is rightfully ours.
 
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phil19034 said:
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R_H_Benson:
In Mediator Dei (1947), Pope Pius XII describe those who are to pray the Divine Office as such:

“The divine office is the prayer of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, offered to God in the name and on behalf of all Christians, when recited by priests and other ministers of the Church and by religious who are deputed by the Church for this”

The Second Vatican Council disregarded the magisterium of Pius XII on this point, as well as on many other liturgical points in favor of novelty.
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No. What Mediator Dei is saying here is that when clergy and religious pray the Divine office, they are doing it in the name of all Christians.

When Lay People pray the Divine office, we are praying on behalf of ourselves or prayer group. Lay people pray it as a devotional (similar to other devotions), we are not praying it in the same way as the clergy and religious.

The clergy and religious have an OBLIGATION to pray the Hours every day. Lay people don’t.

God bless.
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I actually have a slight aside to this. When prayed by laity, the Divine Office is not prayed in the name of the whole Church because the laity do not possess the Holy Orders or the mandate to do so.

BUT: it does NOT become “merely” devotional. Because the laity are baptized, they are joining the official Prayer of the Church, joining their voices to the Church in her prayer. It is therefore an exercise of the Common Priesthood. This retains the Office’s public character, and therefore remains liturgical prayer, even when prayed alone. This is why the Church treats this scenario on its Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, no matter how briefly.

This is what makes the office the best prayer one can say even when alone, and is a perfect structure for one’s personal prayer time. Because it is Scripture, it is official, and it is public. It’s a higher form of prayer than even the Rosary, and the most excellent daily prayer one can offer to God, outside of the Mass itself.
 
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I think we all understand the clerical mindset. Clericalism in some parishes is pretty bad.

But praying the Liturgy of the Hours is not part of that mindset.

However, I can accept an argument about lay people leading the Liturgy of the Hours in Church instead of clergy as clericalism. But lay people simply praying the hours is not clericalism.
 
Edward_H said:
But the lay shouldn’t do it because priests do it.
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What do you mean by this?
  1. Do mean that lay people should not pray the Liturgy of the Hours, like they should not be praying the Eurcharistic Prayers - because both belong to the Priests and Bishops?
  2. Or do you mean that lay people shouldn’t choose to pray the hours simply because priests do it?
If you mean the first, then you are totally wrong.

The Liturgy of the Hours comes directly from prayer services that Jews have. If you attend a Reform Jewish service that is mosy in English you will see how similar the Liturgy of the Hours is to the Jewish prayers - as they read and chant the passages of the Old Testament and other prayers. Also, as I’ve mentioned, lay Saints throughout history have prayed the Litugy of the Hours.

If you mean the second, then I can agree with you. Lay people should pray the Litugy of the Hours if it helps their spiritual growth and prayer life. They shouldn’t simply go through the motions and pray it simply because clergy & religious pray it.

God Bless
 
Many lay people pray it either alone or where publically offered. In my parish, when there is no weekday Mass, there is public récitation of Lauds. Our schola sings Vespers in Gregorian chant every Advent and Lent, and Lauds on Holy Saturday. Another parish in Montreal does Vespers in Gregorian chant every Sunday in Advent and Lent. And I personally know at least a dozen lay faithful who pray it regularly. Perhaps not every Office, but certainly Lauds, Vespers and Compline.

As an oblate, I am a layman; oblates are not consecrated religious, but our promise includes praying at least part of the Divine Office. Since I’m retired, I pray the whole thing using my abbey’s monastic schema of reciting the entire psalter over one week.

I understand by your comment that you feel that too few pray it, but certainly many more than a tiny number do so. We are out there, we just don’t go around drawing attention to it. If you dig around and ask, you may be pleasantly surprised!
 
Please don’t try to contort my point into a simple “should do” “shouldn’t do” caricature.

I am saying that the lay need not feel like they’re less or more simply because they choose to (or try to) do the LOTH, or don’t do it…or don’t even know what the LOTH is!

There are some Catholics who are just too proud and loud about how devout they are…how many rosaries are said (literally AND wrongly saying the Rosary DURING Mass, etc.).

They burn incense at home, etc. “pietism” is sometimes the world to describe these sorts of Catholics.

They’re the ones who are turning around to see who is the priest for Mass…the ones keeping score at Mass…he did it this way, he did it that way…interiorly rejoicing or interiorly complaining!

They don’t understand how to live out their lay vocation without mimicking priests.

They could use some other models of how to maintain a presence of God during the day.
 
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Edward_H said:
They burn incense at home, etc. “pietism” is sometimes the world to describe these sorts of Catholics.
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Burning incense at home is a very popular devotion in Eastern Christian piety.

There is nothing at all wrong with it.

I find your repeated jabs at holy things like praying the LOTH and burning incense to be incredibly disrespectful toward Christ, His Church, and the People of God.

I’m glad I didn’t cross paths with people like you before I was Catholic - I would have been so turned off by your attitude that I would’ve walked away from Catholicism.
 
I am simply pointing out that there are other ways to maintain a lively interior life with God than to mimic priests and to play being in Church at home.

You may want to judge me for that, and that’s your own problem.
 
God sanctifies.
A book doesn’t.
Incense doesn’t.

You can sanctify the changing of a dirty diaper by doing it out of love for God, and doing it well and cheerfully.
 
Edward_H said:
You can sanctify the changing of a dirty diaper by doing it out of love for God, and doing it well and cheerfully.
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What an insulting comment.

Insinuating that praying the LOTH and burning incense are on par with changing a dirty diaper. Real nice.
 
You said “every aspect of your life”…and I agree with you! And you call that insulting.

It’s the love with which an activity is done that gives any aspect of our life its value…not whether there’s incense burning, or a nice bound book open at home.

Many saints have said this. It’s the love and the intention, not the thing.

So changing a diaper can of course be sanctified.
Preparing for a business meeting.
Mowing the grass.
Reading to your children.
Making love with your wife.

They all can be and should be sanctified. “Pray always” “Pray without ceasing” “Rejoice always” “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

All work and all activity can be sanctified.

It’s love that sanctifies…not the thing that is used.

You have some bad theology to work through and tune up.
 
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