Liturgy of the Hours for Laymen Before Vatican 2?

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There is bad theology, but it’s not @Spyridon.

The bad theology here is your objection to the use of devotional items to dispose one to prayer. The use of these objects of devotion are sanctioned and deemed praiseworthy by the Church, and further, devout, faith-filled use of certain objects (Rosaries, Bibles, Scapulars, Medals) carry indulgences. The theology of sacramentals is de fide teaching of the Church, so I say again: it’s your mind that’s not in conformity with that of the Church.

And it doesn’t take much to see the slippery slope here: Changing my baby’s diapers is prayer for me, so I don’t need to make time for real, personal prayer. ou may not believe this yourself, but it opens the door for others to think so. I’ve heard this lame excuse before. “My prayer is doing the dishes.”

Your objection to objects and activities of piety and the implication that somehow mundane, ordinary things somehow substitute for them unsound. All these things mentioned can and should be sanctified, but you cannot sanctify them first of all without a prayer life.

So on this thread alone, you have already cited your objections to:

The praying of the Liturgy of the Hours by laity, calling it “clericalization” (contrary to the Second Vatican Council).

The use of objects of devotion (contrary to the perennial teaching of the Church).

I don’t think you get to throw the “bad theology” card here. Instead, you are pitting one set of good practices (sanctification of ordinary tasks) against another set of inherently holy tasks (the praying of the Divine Office and the use of objects of devotion). The former are ordinary tasks done out of love for God, but are otherwise, ordinary and profane. The latter are inherently sacred actions and things given to us exclusively religious use.

And yes, I can anticipate your objections: things are not holy in themselves. True. But the Church has the power and authority to confer blessings upon objects, thereby setting them aside for sacred use, and therefore, holy. That’s why a sin called sacrilege exists.

So if there are any laymen reading this: keep your Crucifixes. Keep your incense. Keep your blessed candles. Keep your Bibles, rosaries, medals, and scapulars and use them with true devotion. Because contrary to what some people think, God does use objects to move us to devotion. He wants us to set aside time in prayer for him, IN ADDITION TO changing dirty diapers.
 
Had you read my contributions to this thread more openly and sincerely you could have saved yourself time writing a dissertation.

I have no objection to people using devotional items, at all.

I provided an opinion that there are ways other than to imitate priests in this case by praying LOTH (which is fine by the way for some people) to spur on prayer and to maintain a lively interior life. (I go to daily Mass, I say the Rosary every day, I spend time in personal prayer, I make a visit to a Church most days, I read 5 minutes of the NT every day, I do a daily exam, I say the Angelus at noon, etc.).

This site seems to have a certain group that in Teutonic fashion like to tell us how we should do things and why their approach is oh so better.
 
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And no one has done that on this thread.

The issue we have is you continually claiming that praying the Hours is imitating priests.
 
Question for @Edward_H:

Are you aware that even though I am a layman, the Church has anointed me as a Priest, a Prophet, and a King?

Even if your argument were true that the LOTH is some clerical prayer (it’s not - it’s the prayer of the People of God), wouldn’t the fact that all Catholics are a priestly people make it okay to pray it?

Your continued insistence on holding an opinion contrary to the mind of the Church is not an orthodox Catholic attitude. It’s a Protestant Catholic attitude.
 
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There’s only one person in this thread who is trying to tell people what to do and that is you.
 
porthos11 said:
The issue we have is you continually claiming that praying the Hours is imitating priests.
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Exactly, and I think it’s important to point out here that it is not only priests who are mandated to pray the Hours. So too are women religious, who aren’t priests. So too are religious men who don’t happen to be priests (brothers). So too are deacons (for at least some of the hours, for most Lauds and Vespers), who are not priests and in the case of permanent deacons, never will be. It’s not an option for them, it’s an obligation, as the Benedictine brothers of our local monastery would be quick to point out.

So praying the LOTH isn’t “playing priest”. It’s associating yourself to the Body of Christ through the prayer of His Church.
 
Sure, Through our Baptism we become adopted children of God, and become part of the common priesthood, not the ministerial priesthood. Irrelevant to the point, but it was good for a show.

And I didn’t say that the LOTH is some “clerical prayer” at all, but you need me to have said it to continue posting.

Glad you’re the judge of the mind of the Church; we are honored.
 
Edward_H said:
Please don’t try to contort my point into a simple “should do” “shouldn’t do” caricature.

I am saying that the lay need not feel like they’re less or more simply because they choose to (or try to) do the LOTH, or don’t do it…or don’t even know what the LOTH is!

There are some Catholics who are just too proud and loud about how devout they are…how many rosaries are said (literally AND wrongly saying the Rosary DURING Mass, etc.).

They burn incense at home, etc. “pietism” is sometimes the world to describe these sorts of Catholics.

They’re the ones who are turning around to see who is the priest for Mass…the ones keeping score at Mass…he did it this way, he did it that way…interiorly rejoicing or interiorly complaining!

They don’t understand how to live out their lay vocation without mimicking priests.

They could use some other models of how to maintain a presence of God during the day.
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OK. I think I’m starting to understand your point. It’s possible that your original comments were not understood the way you intended them to be understood?

God Bless
 
Don’t blame others. That is the one sole point you have been making throughout this thread and denying it now does not make it less so. We can go back through your post history on this thread and it’s right there. You have said little more than that the Divine Office is imitating priests when said by laity.
 
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Edward_H said:
The focus on the “liturgy of the hours” for the lay is another indication of a sort of “clericalizing” of the lay that has been going on for too many years.

The flood of deacons, EMHC’s, “hospitality ministers”, etc. etc. are other signs of this.

Take even the dissenting news magazine called the National Catholic Reporter…as vehemently anti-institutional Church as it is…nearly all of its angry articles center of clericial matters.

They are every bit as clerical at NCR as a group of Latin Mass only parents hoping all their children become priests or sisters.
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This is what you said exactly. Look at your opening paragraph. The rest are just excess baggage wheere this thread is concerned.

Shall we continue?

This is your main point which is so sorely in error.

And you somehow think you can deny that?
 
Edward_H said:
Glad you’re the judge of the mind of the Church; we are honored.
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That seems to be your claim, with your open disrespect for a form of prayer encouraged by the Church. I’ve never seen such disdain for prayer.
 
You seem to need to mischaracterize my points in order to make your own.

The facts are I’ve said the LOTH is a fine way to maintain the presence of God…but there are many other ways…we don’t have to model priests in order to have this presence of God. We should live the life of the lay very naturally in our own way if we want to.

Catholics shouldn’t be shamed here in this forum simply because they don’t want to take on the LOTH, which is what some could reasonably come to believe based on the “worship” it is given above.

I spend considerable time every day prayer…2 periods of personal prayer…30 minutes…the Holy Rosary, the Angelus, Holy Mass, a short exam, reading scripture, etc.

Disdain prayer? Hardly…but go on and continue to mischaracterize my posts unfairly and uncharitably. Have at it.
 
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Edward_H said:
The facts are I’ve said the LOTH is a fine way to maintain the presence of God…but there are many other ways…we don’t have to model priests in order to have this presence of God. We should live the life of the lay very naturally in our own way if we want to.
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It’s interesting to see your stubbornness and inability to admit you were wrong.

For the 1000th time, the LOTH being prayed by laity is not “modeling priests”…
 
Edward_H said:
You seem to need to mischaracterize my points in order to make your own.

The facts are I’ve said the LOTH is a fine way to maintain the presence of God…but there are many other ways…we don’t have to model priests in order to have this presence of God. We should live the life of the lay very naturally in our own way if we want to.

Catholics shouldn’t be shamed here in this forum simply because they don’t want to take on the LOTH, which is what some could reasonably come to believe based on the “worship” it is given above.
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I didn’t mischaracterize anything. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your earlier posts:
“The focus on the “liturgy of the hours” for the lay is another indication of a sort of “clericalizing” of the lay that has been going on for too many years.”
“I am pointing out that many lay…don’t know how other they should pray…so they do what priests are required to do.”
“But the lay shouldn’t do it because priests do it.” (Despite having been told several times that is NOT why we pray it)

And I have yet to see anyone shamed for not wanting to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. Not here on CAF, not anywhere else.

I stand by what I said. I have never seen such disrepect and disdain for a form of prayer approved by the Church.
 
All true. And I stand by my points. And none supports your assertion.
 
Pretty easy when they’re revealing it on a public message board for all the world to see…
 
The Catholic Church supports angels assertion.

The Church is who you’re fighting on this. Not sure why you’re Protesting the Church so vehemently on this issue.
 
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I’m not…I’m saying stop the LOTH shaming. Lay Catholics are under no obligation - and should be put under no pressure - to pray the LOTH.

To do so is to clericalize the lay.
 
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