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joandarc2008
Guest
So I guess the question seems to be as you seem to have answered to for the Carmellites is the LOTH(or other approved divine office) part of your Rule of Order?
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Praying the Divine Office, Morning and Even Prayer, is part of the Rule of Life for Secular Order Discalced Carmelites.
Also, it is not a mortal sin if a professed member misses, but does replaces it with another prayer.
However, this is only temporary. The Morning and Evening prayer are the normal prayers to be said.
Jim
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joandarc2008
Guest
Secular Franciscans also include Night prayers and Office of the Readings- also we don’t “miss.” It is my understanding from the last class I attended on this very subject matter that while Carmelites if they are going to complete their morning prayers must complete them by 4pm - Franciscans may complete them at any time during the day. So there really is no such things as “missing” a prayer and needing to do another type of prayer of instead.
So again if you have the prayers as part of your rule of order it is part of your profession which is part of your solemn vows.
I know some on here may cringe at the wording of under mortal sin - but lets face it - what are your three requirements for mortal sin -
1)knowledge
2)intent
3)ability
If you had the ability to do your prayers, knew that as part of your Rule you should be doing them, and intentionally did not do them (once in a while we get human and forget to pack a book or fall asleep) what does that meet the condition for? We need to stop putting such a negative connotation on the words “mortal sin” and remember that we are an “Order of Penance” which is how one deals with “mortal sin” and we should be doing this often anyway.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
I just had a conversation with the spiritual assistant of my fraternity, who says that our profession is no more followed under pain of mortal sin than our baptismal vows, so you could go either way with that, depending on what sort of mischief a person was up to 
Further, while the Rule of 1883 had lots of specific prescriptions in it, the most recent Rule does not. We are expected to be people of prayer, and LotH is wonderful for all the reasons we already know, but “failure for a lay person to recite the Divine Office is never, ever seriously sinful!”
This from a person who fairly recently spent years cochairing the national level formation commission, and who is very committed to minding his p’s and q’s.
I would be interested to know what documentation you have in the rule, or the statutes or the general constitutions which bind members of the SFO to the same Office recitation as clergy and religious.
Further, while the Rule of 1883 had lots of specific prescriptions in it, the most recent Rule does not. We are expected to be people of prayer, and LotH is wonderful for all the reasons we already know, but “failure for a lay person to recite the Divine Office is never, ever seriously sinful!”
This from a person who fairly recently spent years cochairing the national level formation commission, and who is very committed to minding his p’s and q’s.
I would be interested to know what documentation you have in the rule, or the statutes or the general constitutions which bind members of the SFO to the same Office recitation as clergy and religious.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
joandarc
For most, they first make temporary promises then definitive promises, of Poverty, Obedience and Chastity.
The promise of Obedience is to the rightful authority of the order.
It’s not a set of rules to make the person obedient to the rules in themselves, but to enhance their spiritual life.
Jim
Well first off, no secular order members make Solemn Vows. Secular Order Discaled Carmelites may voluntarily make simple vows of Obedience and Chastity.
For most, they first make temporary promises then definitive promises, of Poverty, Obedience and Chastity.
The promise of Obedience is to the rightful authority of the order.
Actually, the conditions for a sin to be mortal must be,
Missing saying Morning or Evening prayer, isn’t necessarily a grave matter.
The purpose of the Rule of Life(or Constitutions as they’re currently called, is to help the person grow spiritually. The Rule provides a way of living that will help a person grow deeper in faith.
It’s not a set of rules to make the person obedient to the rules in themselves, but to enhance their spiritual life.
OCDS is not an Order of Penance as you put it, but doing penance is part of it.
Jim
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joandarc2008
Guest
I will give you that it was more clearly spelled out in the Old Rule - please see my above posting. I will get my hands on the documents- it is not from the Rule it is a Magisterial document and therefore goes back to Rule 6. I will also give you that it is up to interpretation - I will also say that I believe it was the intention of the Vatican from the Magisterial writings for the Secular Orders to have fallen in place - especially those whose Fraternties, such as the SFO (I do not know about the others but not all Third Orders are required to do the following but we do) who are Cannonically formed at fraternity to have done just this - I will get you the quote.I just had a conversation with the spiritual assistant of my fraternity, who says that our profession is no more followed under pain of mortal sin than our baptismal vows, so you could go either way with that, depending on what sort of mischief a person was up to
Further, while the Rule of 1883 had lots of specific prescriptions in it, the most recent Rule does not. We are expected to be people of prayer, and LotH is wonderful for all the reasons we already know, but “failure for a lay person to recite the Divine Office is never, ever seriously sinful!”
This from a person who fairly recently spent years cochairing the national level formation commission, and who is very committed to minding his p’s and q’s.
I would be interested to know what documentation you have in the rule, or the statutes or the general constitutions which bind members of the SFO to the same Office recitation as clergy and religious.
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joandarc2008
Guest
It would figure that I cannot find it now. It doesn’t really matter if I find what I have later I will send it - if not I won’t. Either way there are plenty of rules within the Rule of Order that cover both community life/fraternity life and prayer life which is what the LOTH helps us to add to within our spiritual life. This is one of those not worth a long drawn discussion about. I just do not think it is worth getting heated over something that won’t change anyones minds. There are more important issues.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
Well, we all at least can say to the OP that regardless of one’s state in life, the Liturgy of the Hours is a treasure of the Church, and it’s really too bad that it seems to be such a well-kept secret.
OP, there is definitely a learning curve when you’re trying to figure out what’s ordinary and what’s proper, and I had to learn to give myself permission to just ignore all the wonderful extras and stick to the four-week psalter. Now I can handle all the bells and whistles without the frustration of wondering if I’m doing it “right.” Prayer is right, period, even if we don’t quite turn all the pages correctly!
OP, there is definitely a learning curve when you’re trying to figure out what’s ordinary and what’s proper, and I had to learn to give myself permission to just ignore all the wonderful extras and stick to the four-week psalter. Now I can handle all the bells and whistles without the frustration of wondering if I’m doing it “right.” Prayer is right, period, even if we don’t quite turn all the pages correctly!
And yet, I would suggest not staying in this mindset for very long because if you stick to the pure four-week Psalter, you’ll miss the riches of the Feasts and Solemnities, and even the Memorials have much to offer.
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joandarc2008
Guest
I use the Christian Prayer Book for the Laity - the one for the Laity which includes the Morning, Daytime, Evening, Night, Saints, Office of the Readings as well as the Franciscan Supplemental. It takes about five years to get it right from what I have been told.
And I’m afraid you’ve been told wrong. It really annoys me to hear of naysayers issue such discouraging opinions. You’ll get the hang of it pretty quickly for as long as you just make the effort, even to “do it right.”
As always, the best place to start is the Ordinary. Read and master the Red Text. Do this not during your prayer time but at a time when you can study the rubrics. Be familiar with the parts (not that many; for Lauds and Vespers, it’s Introduction (or Invitatory if Lauds is your first prayer of the day), Hymn, Psalter, Reading and Responsory, Gospel Canticle, Intercessions+Lord’s Prayer and Concluding Prayer. Go through the Ordinary’s parts and again, Read and Master the Red Text.
The next thing you should be aware of is the ranking of liturgical days. Just be aware of the meanings of Weekdays, Memorials, Feasts, Sundays, and Solemnities. Then once again, Read and Master the Red Text in the Ordinary, this time keeping in mind which parts are taken from which during the various types of celebrations.
I tell you and I tell you all. The Liturgy of the Hours is not difficult and don’t believe those who tell you otherwise. I think the difficulty is caused by those who discourage other people by saying that it is.
I don’t write this to be a liturgical snob, but I must insist that “doing it right” actually benefits us because we get exposed to texts and prayers about saints (anybody miss the antiphons for St. Agatha?) and the mysteries of our religion and it’s something we really shouldn’t miss out on.
In Father Z’s words, just do the red and say the black.
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joandarc2008
Guest
May I ask do you read yours with a Supplementary as well? Are you reading in a group? Are you including using the guide to find your offices? This was not a discouraging statement it was very much an encouraging statement not to give up given as part of a six hour class on purpose, history and methods by an SFO that was involved in writing many of the REQUIRED formation materials and who has a PhD.
First off, let me clarify that *you’re *not the naysayer, but those those who told you. Ph.D or no, I sorely disagree and yes it is discouraging, if not for you, for newcomers who might just give up on the Office.
In answer to your questions:
Supplement, yes but since I’m not a Religious, only the supplement to the General Roman Calendar as appropriate (Canada doesn’t seem to have its own Supplement), which I figure is much thinner than the Franciscan supplement. I have seen it though and I have an idea as to its thickness. I used to reside in the Philippines and our own Diocesan supplement was about the same thickness. So yes to the Supplement.
Guide. I do have the St. Joseph but it’s US-based and I only use it to confirm page numbers if there are multiple possibilities. On a daily basis, I always use the Canadian Diocesan Ordo. In your case, you will use the Franciscan Ordo. An Ordo automatically resolves things like concurrence, occurrence and precedence.
All I’m saying is, don’t believe those who tell you that it’s difficult or has a steep learning curve. It does not, not even with a supplement because the same principles apply all throughout (if we understand the Proper, we automatically understand the supplement).
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joandarc2008
Guest
Actually you are taking her comment way out of context as I just said considering it was part of a six hour class and you cannot read tone on the internet- We have a guide, although I am familiar with the Ordo - this means picking your own offices for virgin, martyrs, etc for those that do not have ones appointed for them. It was not meant as discouraging nor was it - you weren’t there and no one in that class was discouraged - if anything they were encouraged to start attending or daily LOTH that we have M-F before daily Mass - which is really the only way you know for sure if one is doing it correctly. And by the way I have heard to many people tell me they all there is to know and yet the Glory Be they use still sounds like the Glory Be that they pray Rosary with. You can teach however you wish to teach when you get to the point that you are the one teaching. I think you are missing a few prayers before and after the LOTH that are dependent on the Religious Order of the Parish you are at - the saint of he parish you are at, etc. God bless,
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EvelynEVF
Guest
I would completely disagree with the idea of five years! I’ve only been Catholic for three years and have been up and down in my recitation of hours, but I felt totally comfortable after a few weeks.
I tend to be very concerned about doing things just right, and so it was frustrating to me in the beginning to not have the rhythm down and know where to flip pages, etc. Of course, at that time I didn’t have the St Joseph Guide or a supplement, so I was flipping between the psalter and the propers, which sometimes then tell you to flip to another common for an alternate psalter, and I didn’t know what was optional, etc. Looking back, it’s hard to understand why I found it so complicated, but my life was too exciting back then and I suppose any new thing would have been stressful. I can remember almost being in tears that I didn’t have enough ribbon bookmarks for one particular super-flippy day, and calling my spiritual director for help. So I must have been slightly nuts to begin with
What worked for me was to take a deep breath and stick to the psalter for a couple weeks, while I got the routine of whichever hours established in my day. After that, it was easier to add the propers, and once I had the Guide, it was easy peasy. Oh, and I’m using the one-volume Christian Prayer. I would love a whole four volume set to have all the office of readings in there, but. . .
Now I am totally spoiled, because I use iBreviary, and it’s all laid out for me right there! Even all the office of readings, at the touch of a finger. And since it’s the iPod, I can even use it in the dark without waking my kiddos.
I tend to be very concerned about doing things just right, and so it was frustrating to me in the beginning to not have the rhythm down and know where to flip pages, etc. Of course, at that time I didn’t have the St Joseph Guide or a supplement, so I was flipping between the psalter and the propers, which sometimes then tell you to flip to another common for an alternate psalter, and I didn’t know what was optional, etc. Looking back, it’s hard to understand why I found it so complicated, but my life was too exciting back then and I suppose any new thing would have been stressful. I can remember almost being in tears that I didn’t have enough ribbon bookmarks for one particular super-flippy day, and calling my spiritual director for help. So I must have been slightly nuts to begin with
What worked for me was to take a deep breath and stick to the psalter for a couple weeks, while I got the routine of whichever hours established in my day. After that, it was easier to add the propers, and once I had the Guide, it was easy peasy. Oh, and I’m using the one-volume Christian Prayer. I would love a whole four volume set to have all the office of readings in there, but. . .
Now I am totally spoiled, because I use iBreviary, and it’s all laid out for me right there! Even all the office of readings, at the touch of a finger. And since it’s the iPod, I can even use it in the dark without waking my kiddos.
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joandarc2008
Guest
Why is it everyone on here takes things so literally - five years was to have something completely perfect and of course may have been an stretch - did you not miss where I said - out of context.I would completely disagree with the idea of five years! I’ve only been Catholic for three years and have been up and down in my recitation of hours, but I felt totally comfortable after a few weeks.
I tend to be very concerned about doing things just right, and so it was frustrating to me in the beginning to not have the rhythm down and know where to flip pages, etc. Of course, at that time I didn’t have the St Joseph Guide or a supplement, so I was flipping between the psalter and the propers, which sometimes then tell you to flip to another common for an alternate psalter, and I didn’t know what was optional, etc. Looking back, it’s hard to understand why I found it so complicated, but my life was too exciting back then and I suppose any new thing would have been stressful. I can remember almost being in tears that I didn’t have enough ribbon bookmarks for one particular super-flippy day, and calling my spiritual director for help. So I must have been slightly nuts to begin with
What worked for me was to take a deep breath and stick to the psalter for a couple weeks, while I got the routine of whichever hours established in my day. After that, it was easier to add the propers, and once I had the Guide, it was easy peasy. Oh, and I’m using the one-volume Christian Prayer. I would love a whole four volume set to have all the office of readings in there, but. . .
Now I am totally spoiled, because I use iBreviary, and it’s all laid out for me right there! Even all the office of readings, at the touch of a finger. And since it’s the iPod, I can even use it in the dark without waking my kiddos.
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EvelynEVF
Guest
I’m not taking it literally, because that would be ridiculous. I know it was an exaggeration.
I am disagreeing with the teacher’s choice of words, though, because saying FIVE YEARS is very different from saying, “Look, it’s going to take quite a while before you’re really proficient with this to do it without any guide or whatever.” Telling a newbie FIVE YEARS can either be heard as “Don’t stress; you’ll never get everything quite perfect and it’s not something to be worried about,” or “There is a huge steep learning curve that will take years to conquer.” The discouragement is in the ear of the listener.
Since we’re talking to an OP who is just exploring this, I think it’s important to avoid the exaggeration and be clear that while it may be a bit confusing at first, it’s very realistic to expect that a layperson can pick up the book and be comfortably successful in a reasonable period of time.
Because we have a newbie to the Hours here as an original poster who can easily be scared with a “five years” comment. As you said, we have no context and we can’t read tone. All we see is “it takes five years to get it right”. It takes only a few weeks to get it right.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
About 15 years ago, I taught and ran a Sunday Evening Prayer(Vespers), during Lent, in my parish.
Lent uses the same prayers for Sunday so it was easy to just make copies of the prayers and hand them out to those who didn’t have breviaries.
Anyway, I started with about 20 people, and ended up with 6 in the end. All six people purchased their own breviaries, and they still continue to pray the LOTH"s on a daily basis.
It doesn’t take years to learn, but it takes a least a year to get the complete understanding of how the memorials and solemnities work.
The best way to learn in my opinion, is to do it with a group that knows how.
Either way, its a rich treasure that will benefit you in your spiritual journey.
Jim
Lent uses the same prayers for Sunday so it was easy to just make copies of the prayers and hand them out to those who didn’t have breviaries.
Anyway, I started with about 20 people, and ended up with 6 in the end. All six people purchased their own breviaries, and they still continue to pray the LOTH"s on a daily basis.
It doesn’t take years to learn, but it takes a least a year to get the complete understanding of how the memorials and solemnities work.
The best way to learn in my opinion, is to do it with a group that knows how.
Either way, its a rich treasure that will benefit you in your spiritual journey.
Jim
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OraLabora
Guest
It’s been joked that once a monk has finally mastered the Liturgy of the Hours, he’s ready for solemn profession 
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