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otjm
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So you are saying that on Sunday there are ony 10 to 50 people showing up for Mass?
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Jen7
Guest
Multiple times.
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otjm
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Then I would assume you would understand that there were multiple issues which the vast majority of bishops felt needed addressing, vernacular being only one of them.
2,147 bishops out of 2,151 (nearly all bishops in the world at that time) wanted to address matters which had been added on to the Mass - some of them repetitive and some simply floated into the Mass from private prayers said outside of the Mass as examples, and matters removed from the Mass over the centuries they wished to place back into it (e.g. Old Testament Scriptures).
2,147 bishops out of 2,151 (nearly all bishops in the world at that time) wanted to address matters which had been added on to the Mass - some of them repetitive and some simply floated into the Mass from private prayers said outside of the Mass as examples, and matters removed from the Mass over the centuries they wished to place back into it (e.g. Old Testament Scriptures).
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I wish I could
this about ten times! Oh, wait… Actually, traditionalist “continuing” Anglicans have something very similar to this, priest celebrating ad orientem, elaborated Eucharistic prayer in dignified, literary English. We have a parish such as this in town, and if they were in union with the Holy Father, that’s where I’d be every Sunday. I’ve been to it several times (priest was a friend of mine) and it’s hard not to be sad that the OF couldn’t be like this. (We have no TLM anywhere near me.)
“Novus Ordo” doesn’t strike me as in the least bit offensive, but for some reason, this is a “thing” on CAF, and the term “Ordinary Form” is preferred here. Some object that “Novus Ordo” is technically inaccurate because it only refers to the 1969 Missal that has since been revised, but quite frankly, I find that objection a bit pedantic. The synecdoche and pars pro toto — using a specific term to refer to a more general concept — is extremely common. That is why the Netherlands are commonly referred to as “Holland”, even though that is the name of only one region of NL. When I was growing up on the outer fringes of the American South, my father always referred to everyone north and east of Pittsburgh as “New Yorkers”. We didn’t draw any real distinction between Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, and so on.
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Maximian
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Correct. In the vast majority of of parishesin the diocese.
Exceptions are:
Exceptions are:
- the TLM
- the Cathedral
- the Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Polish community Masses
- one or two particularly successful parishes.
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otjm
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And what diocese might that be?
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Maximian
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An archdiocese in northern Europe.
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otjm
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That explains a whole lot.
The US has far greater Mass attendance. And about 97% of parishes are OF parishes.
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Fuerza
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I now try to avoid these discussions for my own personal health, but I have to point out that Gaul was divided into three (Gallia omnis est divisa in partes tres). Also, an education in Classical Latin is more than sufficient to read Ecclesiastical Latin, so I’m not sure what you meant by this. Additionally, many argue that SC called for actual participation, not active. There is a difference, although both can be achieved within the context of the TLM. It’s also worth noting that the use of vernacular was never intended to eliminate the use of Latin, which was to be retained in at least the ordinary. St. Paul VI’s Missa Jubilate Deo was meant to be a minimum of Latin chant, not merely an option to be used once a year near Advent. OK, stepping down from soapbox and exiting. Staying in this conversation will only harm my blood pressure.
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OraLabora
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Here’s an OF Mass with a mix of Latin Gregorian chant and vernacular. Very similar to the abbey I’m associated with except that our abbey chants the readings.
In this case the vernacular is French. The Mass is by the Community St-Martin in France (Evron). Very beautiful, solemn, and definitely in the Catholic tradition.
This is what was meant by “noble simplicity” in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
In this case the vernacular is French. The Mass is by the Community St-Martin in France (Evron). Very beautiful, solemn, and definitely in the Catholic tradition.
This is what was meant by “noble simplicity” in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
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otjm
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Reaching back to a memory from 1960 is a bit of a reach. The point I was making was not about Gaul, and we both know that, I suspect.
Wow - considering that I was well and alive in the 1950’s and later, it is amazing how few people had an “education” in Latin - classical or eccelisastical. Guess the other poor folks could just lump it. I don’t ever recall being taught that the Mass was for the aficionados or the intelligencia. Having taken Latin for 2 years in high school and two years in college seminary, and finding in the seminary that the majority of us in the class were anything but fluid or facile with it - there were two or three who were - it is just possible that my experience is different from yours.
Nor have I suggested otherwise; the language of SC allows leeway:
36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
- But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
- These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See.
Some people treat SC as the final defining document and any changes which were to be made to the Mass were to be extremely limited (within the reading of those people). It was not the defining document, but rather provided and outline of a range of changes. Changes were made, the Mass promulgated, and the vast majority of people who attend Mass weekly seem to have minimal problems with that - including the use of the vernacular vs. Latin. In short, we are closer to the earliest Church, where the liturgy was in the language of the people.
Have a happy and holy Thanksgiving.
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Fuerza
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You appear to have interpreted this as more confrontational than I intended it to be. Perhaps I shouldn’t post when I’m in a bad mood (I turn 38 today and am feeling rather old), as it seems to come across in my writing. That said, yes your experience seems to have been different from mine. I have no trouble reading EL with a Classical Latin background. Then again, I have a graduate degree in linguistics and am fluent in a few languages. So perhaps it just comes more easily to me. Have a great day.
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dochawk
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As being as poor an example as calling cows “ordinary animal” and dogs “extraordinary” animal. (although it would at least be closer if someone is hungry).
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felsguy
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I offer the following anecdote here, which predates otjm’s by a few years 
, not in support of or against any viewpoint in the discussion above, but simply to share another look at the pre-Vatican II era as I experienced it. Of the 160+ boys in my class at a Catholic high school in a midsized city in a Great Lakes state, only seven of us took four years of Latin and that’s because we were all headed for the seminary. After the four years we could fairly easily translate from the Gallic Wars into English as well as paragraphs from English into classical Latin. However conversing, let alone thinking, in Latin was pretty much beyond us. And I do not recall that we spent time with liturgical or Scriptural passages in Latin which, looking back now, seems a little strange.
, not in support of or against any viewpoint in the discussion above, but simply to share another look at the pre-Vatican II era as I experienced it. Of the 160+ boys in my class at a Catholic high school in a midsized city in a Great Lakes state, only seven of us took four years of Latin and that’s because we were all headed for the seminary. After the four years we could fairly easily translate from the Gallic Wars into English as well as paragraphs from English into classical Latin. However conversing, let alone thinking, in Latin was pretty much beyond us. And I do not recall that we spent time with liturgical or Scriptural passages in Latin which, looking back now, seems a little strange.That pretty much sums up the mass of the Ordinariate, however the Ordinariate is in full communion with Rome and as of lately I have been attending mass at an Ordinariate weekly (sadly I am not currently near a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church my personal favorite).
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OrbisNonSufficit
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Many Bishops oppose this. I know of at least one Bishop whom I won’t name that basically said that in his diocese TLM won’t be celebrated. Only ones doing so are non-diocesan Priests and he tried to stop that on multiple occasions. And I heard about more cases. But this is not to say Traditional Catholics are only ones who are victims to some sort of oppression of course. We live in imperfect world. Charismatic Catholics are sometimes oppressed, sometimes Eastern Catholics are, sometimes Ordinary Form Catholics are and so on. However it still does happen.
Same as to try to say term “Novus Ordo” is offensive. Liturgies are often called by name they were introduced by. Take for example Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom- it certainly isn’t same as when St. John made it but Eastern Catholics still dare to use that name… oh the horror.
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Jen7
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What diocese is this?! I’m hoping we move before too long and I’m really afraid of moving someplace where TLM is trying to be canned like this!
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OrbisNonSufficit
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It’s in Slovakia, I think you are safe 
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whatistrue
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I would like to see stats to support “many”. But I will say that if any Bishop suppresses a legitimate Mass, then that Bishop should be called on it by his superiors.
I don’t think anyone claimed that it was inherently offensive (I certainly didn’t) only that it was sometimes used in a belittling or mocking manner by some who oppose it, and that tone was considered offensive.
They are very similar, if not identical aside from prayers for the Holy Father. I do not have an Ordinariate Mass anywhere near me, and have never been. Due to COVID and my elderly father’s care (he is gravely ill), I cannot travel anywhere for the duration, so it would be a while.HomeschoolDad:
That pretty much sums up the mass of the Ordinariate, however the Ordinariate is in full communion with Rome and as of lately I have been attending mass at an Ordinariate weekly (sadly I am not currently near a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church my personal favorite).
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