Live 8!

[Jennifer123]

Fidei Defensor:

Live 8 is NOT a fundraiser, it’s simply an attempt by celebrities to “direct attention” towards poverty in Africa.

I couldn’t access the story anymore, but the picture said it all: Madonna flipping off the camera. This is why I am absolutely not interested in Live 8 or anything that is headed by celebrities. Looks like to me that it’s more an attempt to “direct attention” to themselves.

The USA is giving money and aid to Africa. We have always been generous to them. I’m tired of getting lectures how we need to do something but the underlying issues discussed here, such as the corrupt governments, are hardly brought up. Probably because it’s not something that can be compressed into a soundbite.

The answer is Christ Jesus and that isn’t anything you’ll see embraced by celebrities or the “cultural elite”.

 

[jman507]

Now when it comes to a government like the Soviet Union, do you congratulate the people like Pope John Paul II and Ronald Reagan for making the external changes needed to bring down the government.

Then do you when it comes to Africa say, no we cannot do anything, nor can or govenment do anything. The change must only come from within, we cannot do anything that will help. Besides if we do anything, it could end up worse.

 

[Jennifer123]

jman507:

Now when it comes to a government like the Soviet Union, do you congratulate the people like Pope John Paul II and Ronald Reagan for making the external changes needed to bring down the government.

Then do you when it comes to Africa say, no we cannot do anything, nor can or govenment do anything. The change must only come from within, we cannot do anything that will help. Besides if we do anything, it could end up worse.

I don’t think anyone has said that nothing can be done for Africa. We are not washing our hands. I know for me, I was expressing my frustration with being told that I need to give more money and there being no discussion about where the problem really lies - the corrupt governments in the African continent. Why aren’t people like Mugabe being called out by celebrities and western government officials?
BTW - it’s just my opinion that while Ronald Reagan and JPII did indeed do much to help bring down communism, they also asked the people to rise up and help themselves. It did happen from within.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Jennifer123:

I don’t think anyone has said that nothing can be done for Africa. We are not washing our hands. I know for me, I was expressing my frustration with being told that I need to give more money and there being no discussion about where the problem really lies - the corrupt governments in the African continent. Why aren’t people like Mugabe being called out by celebrities and western government officials?
BTW - it’s just my opinion that while Ronald Reagan and JPII did indeed do much to help bring down communism, they also asked the people to rise up and help themselves. It did happen from within.

Well, perhaps we can ask Pope Benedict to give us some teaching on Africa. Or better still: Cardinal Arinze. Agreed that corrupt and selfish government officials are a major obstacle to justice for the poor in Africa. How would you turn the heat up on these officials? What’s your plan? Throwing the baby out with the bath water isn’t a plan.

I agree with the U.S. decision to withdraw money from the U.N. The U.N. is a major obstacle to justice for Africa. Witness Rwanda.

 

[Jennifer123]

Ani Ibi:

Well, perhaps we can ask Pope Benedict to give us some teaching on Africa. Or better still: Cardinal Arinze. Agreed that corrupt and selfish government officials are a major obstacle to justice for the poor in Africa. How would you turn the heat up on these officials? What’s your plan? Throwing the baby out with the bath water isn’t a plan.

I agree with the U.S. decision to withdraw money from the U.N. The U.N. is a major obstacle to justice for Africa. Witness Rwanda.

Honestly, I’m not sure how? Thankfully, for all our sakes, I’m not a politician. I don’t think I advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater - I just don’t want to be lectured about not caring for Africa by a bunch of overpaid and self-important celebrities who don’t even give what we are talking about a thought.
Ok - I’ll concede that maybe Bono has thought about it…
Maybe we should look to Reagan and JPII and how they brought down communism, although they were also dealing with a constituency that was a little more empowered.
There are a lot of more intelligent people than I (including yourself)who may have some thoughts on the matter - I hope they weigh in here.

 

[jdnation]

Bono and the boneheads hype the G8’s African 'debt cancellation’

**By Jerry Mazza
**Online Journal Contributing Writer

July 2, 2005—Maybe it was the slickness of it all, the “One Campaign To Make Poverty History” that raised my antennae. That advertising simplicity that can whitewash anything with star names like Bono, U2, Will Smith, Paul McCartney, Coldplay, Jaz Z, Stevie Woner, Madonna, Faith Hill, Marian Carey, Pink Floyd and more, plus Tony Blair, George Bush, even Nelson Mandela. Wow. Replete with a downloadable PDF kit from a “One Campaign” email to help you Organize Your Live 8 Party for July 2nd," just a few days before the G8 Summit and America’s Declaration of Independence weekend. What a coincidence.

But definitely it was John Pilger’s brilliant story in the Monday, June 27, *New Statesman, *“John Pilger isn’t celebrating,” that nailed my belief that something was rotten in Scotland, England, the USA, and with the G8’s proposal to eliminate $55 billion African debt as a “victory for millions.” The announcement, originally made on the front page of the June 12 Observer, quoted Bob Geldof, who said, “Tomorrow 280 million Africans will wake up for the first time in their lives without owing you or me a penny . . .” Right and I’ll wake up as Eminem.

Pilger, going to the heart of the matter, said, “Africa’s imperial plunder and tragedy have been turned into a circus for the benefit of the so-called G8 leaders due in Scotland next month and those of us willing to be distracted by the barkers of the circus: the establishment media and their ‘celebrities.’ The illusion of an anti-establishment crusade led by pop stars—a cultivated, controlling image of rebellion—serves to dilute a great political movement of anger. In summit after summit, not one significant ‘promise’ of the G8 has been kept, and the ‘victory for millions’ is no different. It is a fraud—actually a setback to reducing poverty in Africa. Entirely conditional on vicious, discredited economic programmes imposed by the World Bank and the IMF, the ‘package’ will ensure that the ‘chosen’ countries slip deeper into poverty.” There’s more, much more . . .

Full article:
onlinejournal.com/Commentary/070205Mazza/070205mazza.html

 

[milimac]

**Code: ZE05070305

****Date: 2005-07-03

****Pope Asks G-8 Nations to Ease Scourge of Poverty

****Sends Message to “Make Poverty History” Rally

**VATICAN CITY, JULY 3, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI appealed to the Group of Eight nations to work toward debt reduction and the development of Africa at their upcoming summit.

The leaders of the seven most industrialized countries and Russia will be meet this week in the G-8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland.

“I wish for the total success of this important meeting, hoping that it will lead to sharing with solidarity the expenses of debt reduction, to implementing concrete measures to eradicate poverty and to promoting the genuine development of Africa,” the Pope said after praying the midday Angelus today with the crowds gathered in St. Peter’s Square.

On Saturday, the Holy Father sent a message to the participants of the Make Poverty History rally in Edinburgh in preparation for the summit.

The message was sent on behalf of the Pope by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Vatican secretary of state, to the archbishop of Saint Andrews and Edinburgh, Cardinal Keith Patrick O’Brien.

225,000 join appeal

The message stated: “Greetings to all who are gathered for this event, united by their concern for the welfare of millions of our brothers and sisters afflicted by extreme poverty. As the Second Vatican Council teaches, ‘God intended the earth and all it contains for the use of everyone and of all peoples; so that the good things of creation should be available equally to all’ (“Gaudium et Spes,” 69).”

About 225,000 people, all dressed in white, joined the appeal for solidarity, which wended its way through the streets of Edinburgh. Among the participants were Cardinal O’Brien, and Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, archbishop of Westminster.

“For this reason, people from the world’s richest countries should be prepared to accept the burden of debt reduction for heavily indebted poor countries, and should urge their leaders to fulfill the pledges made to reduce world poverty, especially in Africa, by the year 2015,” stated the message from the Vatican.

“His Holiness prays for the participants in the rally and for the world leaders soon to gather at Gleneagles, that they may all play their part in ensuring a more just distribution of the world’s goods,” added the message. “In the ardent hope that the scourge of global poverty may one day be consigned to history, he cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you see the disconnect between this:
Ani Ibi:

The goals of Live 8 were:

“a workable plan to double aid, drop the debt, and make the trade laws fair.”

And this?
Ani Ibi:

It was emphasized that money was not being asked for.

Very clearly, they ARE asking for money. They just aren’t asking for individual donations – they’re asking for governments to send the money, and asking indivuiduals to pressure their governments to send it.

Now, before we get to that point, we should ask “Why are these nations in such heavy debt? Why are the people not only poor, but getting poorer?”

The answer to both questions is, “Because they live under corrupt, oppressive governments, which stole both the loans and aid on the one hand, and the people’s meagre livelihood on the other.”
Ani Ibi:

A sense of connectedness was being asked for. How can this be detrimental?

We must make the RIGHT connections – and the main connection we must make is that poverty can never be overcome when people live under corrupt, oppressive governments.

If we are to succeed, there must be regime changes – but not by the US stepping in and doing it. The Africans themselves must do it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

Do you see the disconnect between this: And this?

Yes, I did see the disconnect. Also I believe the G-8 decided on billions in aid.
vern humphrey:

Very clearly, they ARE asking for money. They just aren’t asking for individual donations – they’re asking for governments to send the money, and asking indivuiduals to pressure their governments to send it.

Yes, they are. There has been much discussion on these boards as to the wisdom of that. Personally I think some money is in order, but only conditionally. It seems clear to me that money is useless where dictatorial and corrupt regimes are grinding their peoples into premature graves.
vern humphrey:

Now, before we get to that point, we should ask “Why are these nations in such heavy debt? Why are the people not only poor, but getting poorer?”

The answer to both questions is, “Because they live under corrupt, oppressive governments, which stole both the loans and aid on the one hand, and the people’s meagre livelihood on the other.”

Yes, true. On one of these live8 threads I posted an editorial from London Free Press. That editorial gave actual figures for aid which has been stolen by corrupt dictators.
vern humphrey:

We must make the RIGHT connections – and the main connection we must make is that poverty can never be overcome when people live under corrupt, oppressive governments.

No argument from me on that score. I agree.
vern humphrey:

If we are to succeed, there must be regime changes – but not by the US stepping in and doing it. The Africans themselves must do it.

Obviously this is preferable, all things being equal. One poster asked you what made Africa different from Iraq? Please give us your views on this. Do you think there may come a time when that changes? What about Sudan? Thanks, Ani.

PS: live8, flawed though it may have been, did raise consciousness among the conscientious. That is worthwhile. As for the feel-good latte set: they are a lost cause.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Obviously this is preferable, all things being equal. One poster asked you what made Africa different from Iraq? Please give us your views on this. Do you think there may come a time when that changes? What about Sudan? Thanks, Ani.

We have merely to examine the Iraq War in the light of the Catholic concept of Just War:

1. The damage inflicted on the nation or on the community of natinos must be lasting, grave and certain. The issue of WMD aside (which Iraq had used before), Iraq was a major supporter of terrorism and in violation of the Truce that ended the First Gulf War.
2. All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffetive. We had done everything from bombing to blockade.
3. There must be serious prospects of success. We have a new government in Iraq which is making good progress.
4. The use of arms must not produce evils graver than the evil to be eliminated. We have put an end to Saddam’s mass murders that dwarfed the current terrorist killings.

Now look at Africa and tell me how we can honestly say we can apply those four criteria to any African nation?
Ani Ibi:

PS: live8, flawed though it may have been, did raise consciousness among the conscientious. That is worthwhile. As for the feel-good latte set: they are a lost cause.

I wonder if we are not parallelling another conscious-raising effort here. People in Africa are now conscious of AIDS – but many believe it can be cured by having sex with a virgin!!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

I wonder if we are not parallelling another conscious-raising effort here. People in Africa are now conscious of AIDS – but many believe it can be cured by having sex with a virgin!!

I said raising consciousness among the conscientious, Vern. No matter how much corruption there is, Africans are dying in droves.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

I said raising consciousness among the conscientious, Vern.

I suggest the conscientious were already conscious – and mindful of the complexity of the problem. Raising the consciousness of the UNconscientious, who greatly outnumber the conscientious and are prone to exert political pressure to do the wrong thing is what concerns me.
Ani Ibi:

No matter how much corruption there is, Africans are dying in droves.

Yes – and much of that death is financed by loans and grants diverted and stolen by the corrupt governments.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

I suggest the conscientious were already conscious – and mindful of the complexity of the problem. Raising the consciousness of the UNconscientious, who greatly outnumber the conscientious and are prone to exert political pressure to do the wrong thing is what concerns me.

I don’t think they can focus beyond the next latte.
vern humphrey:

Yes – and much of that death is financed by loans and grants diverted and stolen by the corrupt governments.

Yes.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

I don’t think they can focus beyond the next latte.

In this case, some of them have fixated on it for more than 20 years. Believe me, they have done a lot of damage already and will do more.