Living as a gay Catholic man......

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Thanks a lot for your words. You are right in all.

Jesus taught us the love of neighbor. And in today’s world, even within the Church, we do not live this love, we are not examples.
Saint Augustine said: what you will ignite in others must burn within you.

God Bless You,

leandresz.com/en/
 
This is from the Vatican:

Seems very clear. It is referring to a philosophical distinction.
Since you didn’t explain what was objectionable, I’m going to have to presume that you misunderstood something I said or something I linked. Could you be as clear in your explanation as I am striving to be in mine? I think this would go over better if you were.
 
B in too many situations their friends and family don’t love them just the same - a very unchristian attitude, if you ask me.
Sadly in my own family experience and my cousin revealing to me the ‘why’ of his homosexuality it is the fact that many young people do not feel loved at home in the first place that perhaps push them in one direction or the other searching for that love when they are young and vulnerable. For some it is into the first loving arms regardless of gender, for others it is drugs, alcohol, pornography, promiscuity whatever. We all want acceptance and love when we are young and will follow wherever it finds or leads us .

There is a book called the Five Love Languages ,that is very revealing. The basic premise is that we all have an emotional ‘love tank’ and in order to function fully that tank needs to be full (hence the feeling of running on empty sometimes when one just feels alone and rejected) . The problem is that we do not all feel or ‘talk’ the same love language. For me for example my main way I ‘feel’ loved is by physical touch- thank God for my son because his is the same so first thing he does when he comes home from school is give mum a hug. My daughter however is ‘time spent’ now if I did not recognize this I would not spend the HOURS she needs with me just listening and ‘chit-chatting’ as she calls it something that is a huge sacrifice for me because I am a multi tasker and sitting for hours giving one on one undivided attention to her is hard for me but I know when I say I have something else pressing to do - she feels rejected and un-loved. My husband, well definitely not physical touch unfortunately for me, his is words of affirmation which is very much against my English nature. Before I recognized this language I would feel very rejected by my husband ( obviously the romance and ‘honeymoon’ period was very physical as is normal and so I felt like I had been deceived or married a different man than I dated) and daughter.

To the OP I say bravo, if we would all learn to live a chaste life according to God’s word this would practically be heaven on earth…no divorce, exploitation of people and children in the porn industry, no unwanted babies, no STDs etc. It sounds like you are going to be a standard bearer for us and I will pray for you to have courage and steadfastness.
 
God Bless you for putting up the good fight and remaining strong in your faith. 👍:cool:
 
It bothers me to the point of tears that Catholics today do not realize the truth and the joy contained in God’s word and in the holy teaching of the Church. There are two extremes that one can see on a daily basis in churches, politics, online forums, etc. There is the “all gays are going to hell and will feel the wrath of God Almighty, no matter their intentions.” Then there are the “being gay doesn’t change anything and we can have sex with whoever because God loves us no matter what!”
I am posting this to call upon God’s people!
To my heterosexual brothers and sisters: Please do not judge us. Many gay men and women, including myself, do not know where our desires and longings orginate from. We have no control over our sexual appetites and our lustful desires (although through the grace of God, we can try to right our wrongs and repent of our sins). We ask you to love us. We ask you to accept us! God gave us our crosses, just as he gave you yours. Please do not hate us and pass judgement on us when we bar our souls to the world and reveal what many of us have considered one of our deepest secrets. Do not throw us out into your streets, but accept us into your homes! Do not curse our kind, but look on us with the same love you would look on your other Christian brothers and sisters! Love us, this is all we ask!
To my homosexual brothers and sisters: Stop being misguided into the mistaken thought process that this world owes you something because you are different. We were delt cards, and we may not like them, or we may not like the rules by which this game is played, but we must accept it. Do not be fooled into believeing that God condones certain behaviors because they are socially acceptable. Be chaste! Be living examples of God’s holy will in your lives! God gave us our cross so that we may exemplify his love in our lives and in those lives around us!! Have courage and do not lose hope when people curse you or condemn you. We know the truths contained in God’s word!

After a bout of three years living the stereotypical “gay lifestyle”, I have found my faith and my God and reclaimed my life. I have begun living chastely in accordance with the teachings of the Church and the Word of God. I have kept contact with all my friends and aquantinces and have kept them dear to my heart. Many of my gay and lesbian friends have questioned this decision, but since have accepted and supported me. Many have also inquired into the new life that I live, and have begun the “baby steps” towards a chaste life in Christ. I just ask all this. That we live in peace with each other and learn to love, accept, forgive, and live.
Thank you for reading my rants.
What a wonderful post, especially your last paragraph. Don’t feel alone, I also have my problems as regards living a holy life in the context of sexuality. I commend you for being straightforward about the issue and tackling it head on.

My stepdaughter has embraced the gay lifestyle and now even denies the existance of God. Her mother and I accept her totally and do not judge her in any way. As we live our faith, we can only try to be an example to her, in the hope that someday she will reach out for God’s loving embrace. I just don’t know how she can do it (living without God). I know that I, a lowly sinner can not. Again, thanks for sharing your story.
 
As someone who struggles with SSA the first and best thing I did was not to label myself as gay. I am a child of God who suffers from same sex attraction. I have found it hard personality staying friends with my LGBT friends, it creates temptation not just physical attraction but the temptation to be involved in the LGBT community and there issues and causes.
 
Interesting parish that would be. I’ve been going to one parish for 21 years now and never, NOT ONCE have I heard any homily railing against homosexuality. NOT ONCE, let alone “monthly.” I think you are being over-dramatic here and misrepresenting our Church while doing it.

Now, the Evangelical Fundamentalists, I can believe that might happen. Such as the Westboro “Baptist” “Church.”
As the OP, I can tell you, I’ve had many issues with subjects brought up in our pastor’s homilies. Homosexuality being a frequent favorite of his, as well as the “sin” of online dating and the horrors of social networking. It has gone so far as me writing a letter to our bishop. I find these topics are disscussed more frequently in suburban or urban parishes (are you in a rural parish?)
God bless!
 
Thanks to the honest and heart-felt posts from those struggling to be chaste in a world shooting at them from both directions. I can see what a hard road that must be!

Part of what makes this such a tough topic to charitably address is the fact that we live in a culture that has framed the debate as a struggle between two alternative positions that are BOTH false (the classic false dilemma of rhetoric).
  1. This is natural, we were intended to be like this and we should celebrate who we are, be who we are and revel in it (i.e. the lifestyle).
  2. Gays are twisted sickos that we should at least alienate and shun, maybe even eliminate a little more actively…
Both of these are roads that lead to suffering and death.

For some time now, I’ve pondered on it and I am strongly of the opinion that we as a society do NOT need to settle for this artificially polarized culture war. I would like the feedback specifically from posters with a gay inclination on the following analogy.

Homosexuality is not terribly unlike alcoholism. There may be inborn predispositions in some cases, there may be others in which it is entirely environmental, but it is always a disordered inclination, which leads to self destructive results when acted on. As a culture, we’ve learned to be able love those who suffer from acoholism. There are virtually no accounts of people beating drunks or dragging them to death behind pickup trucks because they are alcoholics. And yet, we did not need to resort to campaigns of “go ahead, drink up and be proud of who you are” among alcoholics in order to achieve this status where we can respect the dignity of persons, but denounce the self destructive behavior and try to offer such people every support in learning to discipline themselves. Are we not able as a society to mature to that point in other areas of human struggle? Can we not support and love those who struggle with something that seems bigger than they are while still refusing to enable that self destructive behavior?

I suspect that the largest obstacle is the fallen human tendency to be horrified at the sins of “them” so as to make the sins of “us” seem less severe. Hetero folks do this to gay people badly when we pretend that they are any worse than our own fornicators, masturbators, adulterers and pornographers. Gay people do this when they contend that homophobia is so eggregious a sin that it eclipses the consequences of the sinful aspects of modern gay culture (STDs, drug abuse, suicide, domestic violence rates are all sky high). Both sides are guilty of scapegoating and we’ll never be truly blessings to each other until it stops.

It all makes sense to me, but I’d like the feedback of catholics with an SSA that are struggling to be chaste. Is this a reasonable analogy from your view?
If we’re all being honest here, I HATE that analogy. I know you mean well in trying to find a common ground, and I commend you for putting forth quite a bit more effort that many people in trying to understand our situation. Here is the problem I have with that analogy: In my mind, I have a set of three different “gays.” 1.) “Born This Way Gay” (that would be an individual such as myself, who cannot explain nor comprehend where their attractions came from) 2.) “Situational Gay” (individuals whose same sex attractions were most likely cause by some traumatizing event(s) i.e. A woman becoming a lesbian because of sexual abuse by her father or other male figure) 3.) “The Attention Gay” (individuals who may not even experience SSA at all, but label themselves gay for acceptance into a community, because they were rejected by others)
Alcholism comes with situation. Whether that be emotional, or addictive, or whatever the case may be, one does not simply come out of the womb craving alcohol. There is no horomone released during puberty to make a person feel the need to drink alcholic beverages. So the analogy to alcholism is completely null when it comes to “born this way gays.”

And yes, I use and accept the term gay. Gay is what I was taught and its just what I am. I’m not big on the EXACT definitions of words. Especially over something as trivial as that.
 
Since you didn’t explain what was objectionable, I’m going to have to presume that you misunderstood something I said or something I linked. Could you be as clear in your explanation as I am striving to be in mine? I think this would go over better if you were.
Which part of my post do you think is part of any misunderstanding?
 
“Sex drive” is a poorly defined term. Are you asserting that experiencing lust(hetero or otherwise) is no big deal and people should give up hope of overcoming that disordered inclination? Human beings are precious creations of God, not objects for our use and pleasure. I, for one, look forward to the day when my sanctification will be such that a naked woman will have no lustful effect on me (marital passion is not the same as lust!). It’s not today, mind you, but then again I’m not done cookin’ yet. I think you mistake people’s assertions about what we should be aiming at for claims of what they’ve achieved. Very different things.
Not at all. I simply reject that we should single out one particular “disordered inclination” over another and give it undue focus. Although I would agree that there is a disadvantage with homosexuals because homosexuals are basically being asked to be celibate forever, while heterosexuals only have to be celibate until marriage, after which all lustful hell breaks loose.

As far as the lust issue, you can’t tell me that Song of Solomon isn’t chock full of lust! Lust within marriage is great … when directed at the other spouse. Reclassifying it as “marital passion” after marriage is intellectually dishonest at best. Call a spade a spade.
 
As far as the lust issue, you can’t tell me that Song of Solomon isn’t chock full of lust! Lust within marriage is great … when directed at the other spouse. Reclassifying it as “marital passion” after marriage is intellectually dishonest at best. Call a spade a spade.
No less than John Paul II disagrees with you. He was jeered widely for making the distinction between lust and passion and warning married couples to avoid merely lusting for one another. Lust is by definition objectifying. It is never loving to see your spouse as an object. We live in a culture that finds this incomprehensible, but I hope that you’ll stop for a moment and reconsider the assumption that any assertion you can’t personally relate to is “intellectually dishonest.” Maybe you’re just not done cookin’ yet either…
 
If we’re all being honest here, I HATE that analogy. …

Alcholism comes with situation. Whether that be emotional, or addictive, or whatever the case may be, one does not simply come out of the womb craving alcohol. There is no horomone released during puberty to make a person feel the need to drink alcholic beverages. So the analogy to alcholism is completely null when it comes to “born this way gays.”
I take it you’ve never spent time in or adjacent to an American Indian reservation. Some people do indeed have an inborn vulnerability to alcohol that is absolutely overwhelming. It’s undeniable when you’ve witnessed it.

Just maybe it isn’t the alcoholics analogy that is lacking but your experience with people genetically hyper-prone to alcoholism. What do you think?

On the other hand, maybe it isn’t a useful analogy if the general public isn’t aware of just how profoundly prone to alcoholism some people innately are. (name removed by moderator)ut form others? Are people generally aware of this?
 
Not at all. I simply reject that we should single out one particular “disordered inclination” over another and give it undue focus. Although I would agree that there is a disadvantage with homosexuals because homosexuals are basically being asked to be celibate forever, while heterosexuals only have to be celibate until marriage, after which all lustful hell breaks loose.

As far as the lust issue, you can’t tell me that Song of Solomon isn’t chock full of lust! Lust within marriage is great … when directed at the other spouse. Reclassifying it as “marital passion” after marriage is intellectually dishonest at best. Call a spade a spade.
Lust is a sin within marriage or outside of marriage.

It is a disordered desire for sex.

No one is singling out anyone or anything. What is happening is that our culture wants to legitimize what is illegitimate. When arguments are used to refute what is profoundly against Church teaching then we see all types of assertions in an attempt minimize the issue.
 
…After a bout of three years living the stereotypical “gay lifestyle”, I have found my faith and my God and reclaimed my life. I have begun living chastely in accordance with the teachings of the Church and the Word of God. I have kept contact with all my friends and aquantinces and have kept them dear to my heart. Many of my gay and lesbian friends have questioned this decision, but since have accepted and supported me. Many have also inquired into the new life that I live, and have begun the “baby steps” towards a chaste life in Christ. I just ask all this. That we live in peace with each other and learn to love, accept, forgive, and live.
Thank you for reading my rants.
What a beautiful post, SHF!! Your really nailed it, and I praise God that you’ve chosen to live out the Truth in your life. Way to go! :clapping:
 
Grace & Peace!
Some people do indeed have an inborn vulnerability to alcohol that is absolutely overwhelming.
I also find the alcoholism analogy a bit troublesome. It conflates a potentially crippling addiction with a very human desire to form a deep, affective or romantic relationship with another human being–and I’m not talking about having sex, I’m talking about basic same-sex attraction. I think we assume too quickly that same-sex attracted people just want to have sex with whomever they fancy. If we assumed the same for heterosexuals, all dating would be banned as being, at best, a lust-addled near occasion for sin.

A man who has never had sex in his life but who expresses that he’s attracted to other men is said (at least in these fora) to be suffering from the *affliction *of SSA; his affections are objectively disordered. But it would be unreasonable to tell a mixologist that they’re an alcoholic because they make terrific cocktails. It would be ridiculous to tell someone who enjoys a glass of wine with their dinner that their enjoyment constitutes a disorder. It would be absurd to tell someone who doesn’t drink but enjoys parties that they’re addicted to alcohol.

Alcoholism is characterized by a compulsive desire to engage in the ultimately self-destructive behavior of uncontrolled drinking. Being attracted to the same sex is characterized by being attracted to the same sex–elements of compulsion, self-destruction or engaging in the sexual act are no more a definitive characteristic of such an attraction than they are definitively characteristic of opposite sex attraction.

I would argue that it’s the language of “objective disorder” that invites such comparisons. And I and others would further argue that that language is problematic, to say the least.

The catechism’s discussion of sexuality should lead us to the understanding that the sexual appetite is geared toward the marital act, and that heterosexuality and homosexuality are aspects of human concupiscence.

Concupiscence, as we know, is not sin, but can lead to sin. One of the terrific things about the Catholic understanding of human desire is that it says that we desire things that are good for us, that is: the things we desire are not contrary to our nature as human beings. However, we do not always desire these good things in appropriate ways. As one thoughtful cathoic wrote:
Of course, on the level of the lower appetite, we are not drawn by the holistic object of an appetite, but merely by this or that sensory “fragment” of the appetite. Only Reason can make sense of these fragments by uniting them into the proper “whole picture” of the correct object.
The complete object with regard to the sexual appetite, is, again, the marital act: male+female+marriage+sex. That’s the whole picture according to the RCC moral teaching. And neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality in themselves construct the whole picture.

And that should be the end of it. That’s all that should need to be said. But the catechism unfortunately goes further: it says that a homosexual inclination represents an objective disorder. Which is to say, the object of the inclination is wrong according to the nature of the one so inclined. But this is problematic. Why? Because it introduces the idea that the sexual appetite is geared not toward a holistic act, but is geared toward specific sensual fragments: a male desires a female’s body and vice versa. How is this problematic? It says that the sexual appetite is binary, not unitary, and relative: that the good sought by one person (a male), is definitively not the good sought by another (a female). And this begins to suggest that there is a fundamental difference between the nature of how males and females desire, which is to ultimately posit that males and females have different kinds of concupiscence, different kinds of wills, and, in the end, different human natures. Naturally, that sounds absurd. But that’s where the logic leads us. Why else would it be objectively wrong for a man to find another man attractice unless the sensual data involved were evil relative to the man’s maleness?

In other words, in such an understanding:
…]homosexuality is “intrinsically or objective disordered” because it cannot, …]merely be considered a case of “the right pieces being assembled the wrong way” but of wrong pieces (on the level of the sensitive appetite) period.

…]

In other words, homosexuality isn’t considered just a case of fallen concupiscence like any other (ie, a mis-assembling of good fragments, of “pieces” that can, by Reason, be assembled into the holistic good “whole picture”)…but rather something utterly disordered.

This is theologically problematic, to say the least, because the idea that the Fall could have caused any sort of total depravity is not in the Catholic notion. The lower appetite now acts independently of Reason, but the things it is attracted to are still ultimately “good pieces” even if they can be assembled incorrectly. To posit a species of creature attracted to pieces that are not even part of the good for its nature…is to posit a monster.

Source.
There is, naturally, no problem with the RCC saying that certain actions are intrinsically disordered because they represent a grave moral evil (such as any form of sex outside marriage). But to take an extra step to an understanding that some people’s concupiscence is completely corrupt…I think there are problems with that. Comparisons to alcoholism are symptoms of those problems.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Oh my God…you guys do exist!

Thank you to SacredHeartFan for starting this conversation, and to all those who posted their replies (and quotes).

I am new here, tried to find a group that would have a forum with this and related topics. I couldn’t find one, so I created a group instead, lol 🙂

Anyways, will continue visiting this forum.

If anyone’s interested in joining the group I mentioned, it’s called “being gay without a choice.”

God bless one and all!
Carlos
 
  1. I also find the alcoholism analogy a bit troublesome… (shortened due to 6000 character limit)
  2. A man who has never had sex in his life but who expresses that he’s attracted to other men …
  3. Alcoholism is characterized by a compulsive desire to engage…
  4. The catechism’s discussion of sexuality …
  5. Concupiscence, as we know, is not sin, but can lead to sin. One of the terrific things about the Catholic understanding …
  6. And that should be the end of it. That’s all that should need to be said. But the catechism unfortunately goes further: it says that a homosexual inclination represents an objective disorder. …
  7. In other words, in such an understanding:
    …]homosexuality is “intrinsically or objective disordered” because it cannot, …]merely be considered a case of “the right pieces being assembled the wrong way” but of wrong pieces (on the level of the sensitive appetite) period.
  8. There is, naturally, no problem with the RCC saying that certain actions are intrinsically disordered …
Mark, I daresay you are more educated than I! Let me see if I comprehend you broken down by the numbers I inserted above.
  1. I’d say this is fair criticism in general of conservative critics of the gay subculture, but I’m not sure it applies to my proposed analogy. Yes the impulse for intimacy is NOT disordered in and of itself, but there isn’t any healthy outlet for it for gay people, so the analogy seems to hold firm to me. I am assuming the AA philsophy that NO amount of drinking is tolerable for an alcoholic. Sexual intimacy for a homosexual, even in a long term, committed relationship is not a healthy outlet either. More on this later.
  2. I’ll grant the difference to a point. Analogies are never precise. But I approach this analogy from the standpoint of one who views alcoholism as a fact, not a negative judgement about the person who developed it. Society largely does today, you know. There is far more support than stigma today for acoholics. That’s why I think it holds hope as a model for a catholic counter-cultural approach towards homosexual persons.
  3. The first paragraph here is a bald assertion. Why do you think SSA is not inherently self destructive? I’ve heard this assertion before and don’t comprehend it. How can one say that the desire to do something disordered is not itself disordered? Unlike SSA, opposite sex attraction is ordered towards creating relationships that hold the potential to become fruitful marriage unions. That’s the difference, that’s why even the inclination is disordered (keeping in mind that temptation isn’t sin). I would agree that catholics don’t often enough recognize the host of OTHER disordered inclinations we are prone to…
  4. Now you’re either way over my head or nuts. You choose. 🙂 Heterosexuality is a result of concupiscence? See response #3 above. There are certainly disordered expressions of heterosexuality (fornication, porn, etc). Is that what you mean?
5 &6. These ran together. I’d say this is incomplete and is missing some of JPII’s insights. You make it sound like the entire thing is solely about making babies. But sexual intimacy between spouses has both spiritual and physical life giving qualities. The way in which the physical intimacy between two gay men lacks the physical life giving qualities is also a pointer to the way in which that relationship lacks the spiritual life giving qualities as well. Catholicism consistently reminds us that we are a union of body and soul, not spiritual beings trapped in irrelevant bodies. This is why the inclination itself is disordered. Why is it absurd to suppose that men and women are different, that those differences are more than just physical attributes? Body /soul union.
  1. Either I don’t follow or the argument doesn’t. I’d agree that gay people experience the natural and good human yearning for intimacy with other humans. The fall created all sorts of hard to comprehend difficulties for mankind. I’m not sure how this particular one makes someone a “monster” when so many others don’t. Back to my analogy, why is someone with an inclination to self destructive alcohol abuse not a monster, but someone with an inclination to sexual self destructive behaviors a monster? Like everybody else, homosexual persons are good, but fallen, not utterly depraved.
  2. Again, I don’t follow the completely corrupt description. We’ve already established that homosexual persons have the natural and good human yearning for intimacy. That’s not corrupt. But for reasons we don’t understand, that desire has been coupled to something it should not be. This is hardly unique in the human experience. You haven’t met a person with food appettites mismatched with the natural design for proper nutrition? You haven’t met people with ADD unable to concentrate on a task through to completion? You’ve never met a narcissist? A sociopath?
We’re all fallen human beings in one form or another. Catholic teaching hardly singles out gay people with any unique condemnations. Their disordered inclinations are similar in origin to that of the rest of us.
 
Sacred Heart Fan,
I commend you for your post and I will pray for you to continue your celibate lifestyle. I
can only imagine how difficult it must be.
I have known several people who struggle with SSA, and most of those I know, are celibate
and happier than they were when they were into the lifestyle. Some have more problems
with those who are still in the lifestyle than they do with heterosexuals.
I was very moved with one interview I read with someone who left the lifestyle “because he
loved his SS partner so much” that he did not want him to lose his soul. That is real love.
His partner was not appreciative of it at the time, because he didn’t understand the conversion that had taken place.
God Bless You.
 
Sacred Heart Fan,
I commend you for your post and I will pray for you to continue your celibate lifestyle. I
can only imagine how difficult it must be.
I have known several people who struggle with SSA, and most of those I know, are celibate
and happier than they were when they were into the lifestyle. Some have more problems
with those who are still in the lifestyle than they do with heterosexuals.
I was very moved with one interview I read with someone who left the lifestyle “because he
loved his SS partner so much” that he did not want him to lose his soul. That is real love.
His partner was not appreciative of it at the time, because he didn’t understand the conversion that had taken place.
God Bless You.
I find the idea that loving someone (and I mean really loving, not lusting) will cause them to lose their soul. Isn’t God love? Do you really think that when you die God will say “good job throwing him away - love is good, but only sometimes.”
 
I find the idea that loving someone (and I mean really loving, not lusting) will cause them to lose their soul. Isn’t God love? Do you really think that when you die God will say “good job throwing him away - love is good, but only sometimes.”
True love requires selflessness, self-denial, self-sacrifice. This is Christian love. It is called in New Testament greek agape (self-donating love).

It is the love exemplified by Christ on the cross.

I find it extremely beautiful that a gay man would deny himself the pleasure of being sexually active with his SS lover, out of love for his eternal salvation.

Surely, even though you are not religious, you can see the great courage and selfless dedication of that gay man to his religion, and to his partner, and respect him for it even though you see him as, perhaps, misguided in his convictions? 🙂

True love is selfless, self-emptying and that was a truly selfless and courageous thing to do, and demonstrates a true dedication to one’s chosen path.

The giving up of a relationship that clearly brought both of them great earthly happiness, demonstrates for me true, self-sacrificing love.
 
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