Living by the sword?

[LDNCatholic]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

He is talking about violence but I bet there is more theology even behind this comment. I cant help you any further because Im not a bible scholar:blush:

Im guessing the word sword was used because that was the weapon of choice back in biblical times.

 

[LDNCatholic]

He is talking about violence but I bet there is more theology even behind this comment. I cant help you any further because Im not a bible scholar:blush:

Im guessing the word sword was used because that was the weapon of choice back in biblical times.

Sorry I was unclear, I mean was Jesus condemning ALL violence or was He pointing out that it has its consequences?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Sorry I was unclear, I mean was Jesus condemning ALL violence or was He pointing out that it has its consequences?

IMHO both. In the OT we see ALOT of violence but I believe in the NT it is all about loving our enemies and not using violence to try and destroy them but using kindness through the power of the Holy Spirit and leave vengeneance to God.
Just my opinion of course

 

[LDNCatholic]

IMHO both. In the OT we see ALOT of violence but I believe in the NT it is all about loving our enemies and not using violence to try and destroy them but using kindness through the power of the Holy Spirit and leave vengeneance to God.
Just my opinion of course

Thank you for taking the time to answer I wasn’t really talking about vengeance, but for example self defence or defence of someone elses life where merely laying your own down is not a viable option.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thank you for taking the time to answer I wasn’t really talking about vengeance, but for example self defence or defence of someone elses life where merely laying your own down is not a viable option.

I think self-defense is ok:shrug:

 

[jcrichton]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

Hi, LDNCatholic!

This is an interesting passage… just a few minutes before Jesus reminded the Eleven that when He sent them out He told them to take nothing with them; now He was telling them to gear up… sell what you own and get weapons… the battle is NOW…

…yet, the second that a sword (personal view: a dagger) was produced Jesus said that that was enough!

Then… they brought it! He did not shrink; He told them I AM whom you seek! …when they attempted to apprehend Him Peter took the weapon and struck one of the assailants…

Jesus stopped him. “…live by the sword…”

Peter represented Jesus; Jesus would not even break a bent reed!

His disciples must emulate the Master not the world!

Would that mean that none is to brandish a weapon, ever?

Jesus healed the servant of the centurion (a Roman soldier: St. Matthew 8:5-13) and resurrected Jairo’s daughter (a ruler in the local synagogue: St. Mark 5:22-24, 35-43); both of these men wheeled power within their respective community, yet, Jesus took into account their Faith in Him not their particular job functions.

God understands that there are situations in our temporal existence that require the use of weapons.

What is important to note is that our call is to Love and to be one: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart…and your neighbor as yourself…” in these the Law and the Prophets are fulfilled.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LDNCatholic]

Thanks, one more question, when Jesus said ‘‘it is enough’’ did He mean ‘‘Enough!’’ as in rebuking them, or did he mean enough as in ‘‘that is sufficient for the task at hand’’?

 

[HelenRose]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

I am sure that this is one of those teachings that has many many ways of looking at it. I have always believed, in part, it means that you live and die by what you do and say.

If you live a violent and destructive life that is how you will die. Not necessarily by the sword but by the violence in your heart.

 

[JoeF9000]

Reading thru the thread, I see that it is commonly agreed that there is a great deal of violence in both the new and old testaments.

When confronted by a non-catholic who is quoting verses about murder, rape, killing supposedly ordered by God, How do you respond? Any verses to throw back at them?

 

[jcrichton]

Thanks, one more question, when Jesus said ‘‘it is enough’’ did He mean ‘‘Enough!’’ as in rebuking them, or did he mean enough as in ‘‘that is sufficient for the task at hand’’?

Jesus is calling His disciples to get battle-ready… as with all of His Teaching, He uses a language that is familiar to His audience… the Jews were under the rule of Rome; they awaited a Messiah who would liberate them from their oppresors; when Jesus calls them to arm He reminds them that when He had previously sent them out He Commanded that they take nothing with them on the road; this time it was different: they would have to fend for themselves; Satan would no longer be held back by Christ as His disciples must test their mettle.

Yet their battle field is not a temporal but a spiritual one, as Jesus was quick to point it out to Pontious Pilate (“My Kingdom is not of this world…”); so once the first weapon is produced, Jesus tells them that it is enough–He Teaches them to be ready to fight but not with mortal weapons.

Hope this helps.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Reading thru the thread, I see that it is commonly agreed that there is a great deal of violence in both the new and old testaments.

When confronted by a non-catholic who is quoting verses about murder, rape, killing supposedly ordered by God, How do you respond? Any verses to throw back at them?

Hi, Joe!

I think that it is not as simple as that (quoting verses); it becomes “mine vs. yours.”

I rather study Scriptures with them… God never commands that His people rape and murder… though in Scriptures you will find that Israel is commanded to eradicate the nations which land’s they will possess.

But even when all of this was happening Israel had a standing order to allow foreigners to live among them an to treat them as their own; the only exception would be partaking of the Holy Services; yet, if a foreigner would obey Yahweh God’s Commandments and he and all of his household (which included servants) would obey the Law (which included circumsicion) he/they were to be treated as children of Israel.

Still, all of these killings happened during a different time, once concerned with temporal values (“eye for and eye and ear for an ear”). Note that it was never a matter of conversion–people were not killed if they refused to follow Yahweh God.

In the fullness of times (spiritually speaking) Jesus was sent and a new Covenant was established and the temporal values ceased ("…you were told love your friend and hate your enemy… I say, Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you…")

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thistle]

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary on Matthew 26:52:

Ver. 52. Shall perish by the sword. This was not to condemn the use of the sword, when employed on a just cause, or by lawful authority. Euthymius looks upon it as a prophecy that the Jews should perish by the sword of the Romans. (Witham) — Our divine Saviour would not permit this apostle to continue in his pious zeal for the safety of his Master. He says to him: put up thy sword. For he could not be unwilling to die for the redemption of man, who chose to be born for that end alone. Now, therefore, he gives power to his implacable enemies to treat him in the most cruel manner, not willing that the triumph of the cross should be in the least deferred; the dominion of the devil and man’s captivity in the least prolonged. (St. Leo)

 

[Archus]

I have an alternate view.

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

A sword is an instrument of death. What other purpose could it wield? The person who uses it, deals death to others. They have chosen death.

Therefore, those who live a life of death have their life made up for them, they will die but that which is their life.

Wheras another occupation, say a carpenter, will not die by being a carpenter, although he may die as one. He will, through Christ, die and live in Him, but those who live by the sword, shall die by it, for their purpose is death, not life.

In other words:

Those who live a life of sin, shall die by a life of sin.

They let sin, not holiness be the master of their lives, (ref Romans … 9 I believe, someone help me out on this).

Furthermore, it can be pointed out that a sword is a material, or earthly thing. Therefore we can apply this where also in Romans, I think… (boy Romans sure comes up a lot…), we, as Christians should think not of earthly things, but of heavenly things. It can be said that those who live by the sword care not for heaven, but only the earth and themselves, and as a result, those who live by the sword, shall die by it. It should also be pointed out that this does not contradict my above conclusion on sin and holiness.

 

[Steven_John]

We live in the memory of those we interact with.

If the great apostle Peter had taken the if of that soldier we would remember him as such.

My Uncle was a Christian brother who spent most of his life serving indigenous people and is remembered by people around me as that man. He died of cancer. People don’t remember him for that.

My Dad was a bus driver and is remembered by people around me as that man. He died of heart attack. People don’t remember him for that.

My Grandpa was a soldier, even on anzac day no one ever speaks to me of him. People feel shame of war and killing. My own memory of him is of many things but when i recall him and thank God for his life it is of fishing, gardening etc.

1. David (PBWH) and Goliath is a story of right relationship with God.
2. Jesus (PBWH) and Legion is a story of right relationship with God.

The setting for both stories is radically different.

Both served God, I pray to God that my path be of the second
(the setting of my life is more like)
but if called to be like the first
(the setting of others lives are more like)
I pray i will have the strength to do Gods will.

The question I am to ask myself is how will i be remembered?

How did the prophets (PBWHT) say God called me to live?

 

[Lapell]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

There might some of that, but also I believe that it would have grave consequences for the soul if it were murder, not self-defence. Unless you are sorry for what you did (here I use “you” instead of “one” the indefinite pronoun!), go to ask forgiveness from God in the Sacrament of Penance and make amend…

 

[SeanTom]

Angel,

                                                 LUKE 22:35-38

JESUS ASKS APOSTLES TO CARRY SWORDS!!

When Jesus said to His Apostles, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.

He then said to the, 12 “But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely, ‘He was counted among the wicked’; and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.”

Then they said, “Lord, look, there are two swords here.” But he replied, “It is enough!”

Perhaps I am way off base here. But it does not seem so mysterious that Jesus asked the disciples to carry two swords. Jesus also asked Peter, James, and John to “watch and pray”. Today we probably usually think of the expression “watch and pray” in terms of watching and praying in our daily life or in terms of preparation for the second coming of Jesus.

However, I don’t see any necessary conflict in assuming that it could also mean to watch in the sense of standing guard. Obviously Jesus knew that he had some pretty hard praying to do at Gethsemane and it would be good if he were not distracted. Some overly zealous co-religionists had already tried to kill him a number of times, so the idea of guarding would seem just common sense. Furthermore, being both 100% human and 100% divine, it seems to me that Jesus was obligated to take reasonable precautions while praying in this particularly dangerous circumstance. Even though Jesus was ready to give up his life for the sake of the gospel and for the salvation of souls, nevertheless HUMANLY speaking it may not have been HUMANLY 100% obvious that this was the appropriate moment to do so. Furthermore, from the standpoint of being a good Jew, Jesus could have opened himself to the criticism that he was risking his life foolishly. Therefore Jesus might have ordered the disciples to carry the swords in order to “fulfill all righteousness”, just as he insisted on being baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan at the start of his ministry.

 

[ToddM]

How many carpenters live by the nail?

 

[vern_humphrey]

When Jesus said ‘‘He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword’’, did He mean that it is implicitly wrong to use the sword, or is He merely pointing out that violence begets violence and one must be prepared to deal with the consequences of violence?

He was talking about bandits and outlaws. That’s what to “live by the sword” meant. And his point was that open, armed rebellion against the troops and temple guards who had come to arrest Him would bring the Romans into play, and the Apostles would be hunted down (as the Jewish Zealots were hunted about 40 years later.)

 

[jcrichton]

Angel,

                                                 LUKE 22:35-38

JESUS ASKS APOSTLES TO CARRY SWORDS!!

When Jesus said to His Apostles, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.

He then said to the, 12 “But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely, ‘He was counted among the wicked’; and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.”

Then they said, “Lord, look, there are two swords here.” But he replied, “It is enough!”

Perhaps I am way off base here. But it does not seem so mysterious that Jesus asked the disciples to carry two swords. Jesus also asked Peter, James, and John to “watch and pray”. Today we probably usually think of the expression “watch and pray” in terms of watching and praying in our daily life or in terms of preparation for the second coming of Jesus.

However, I don’t see any necessary conflict in assuming that it could also mean to watch in the sense of standing guard. Obviously Jesus knew that he had some pretty hard praying to do at Gethsemane and it would be good if he were not distracted. Some overly zealous co-religionists had already tried to kill him a number of times, so the idea of guarding would seem just common sense. Furthermore, being both 100% human and 100% divine, it seems to me that Jesus was obligated to take reasonable precautions while praying in this particularly dangerous circumstance. Even though Jesus was ready to give up his life for the sake of the gospel and for the salvation of souls, nevertheless HUMANLY speaking it may not have been HUMANLY 100% obvious that this was the appropriate moment to do so. Furthermore, from the standpoint of being a good Jew, Jesus could have opened himself to the criticism that he was risking his life foolishly. Therefore Jesus might have ordered the disciples to carry the swords in order to “fulfill all righteousness”, just as he insisted on being baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan at the start of his ministry.

Hi, Sean Tom!

Though you do make a strong argument, I suggest that if we look deeper in Scriptures we find that there are several occasions where Jesus reveals much more than “human” fear or understanding of the role He had to play as the Christ. You’ve made mention of one; though John was ambivalent about baptizing Jesus–Jesus had no reservations (it seems quite funny to me since John had just called Jesus the Lamb of God–still he was not able to comprehend it all); then there are the various revelations that Jesus made about His death (including Jonah’s and the serpent’s signs); did you notice that Jesus prayed for the Cup to pass only to claim it right back? Was Jesus being too human or was there a different Cup that He was thinking about? …ever heard of any man/woman facing death and their fear making them sweat blood? …was Jesus just a big baby or was there something beyond that simple understanding of “Cup”?

Here’s a hint: at one time Jesus tells His disciples that He is never alone; that His Father is always with Him!

…right before His death He calls out: “Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani?” Was Jesus fearing for His human life?

Several times during His ministry there were those who wanted Him dead (it did not escape His captors that He challenged them with this fact); there were even close calls–yet Jesus simply walked away as the mob would inexplicably grant His unobstructed passage. At one time or another Jesus even stated that it was not yet His time.

Yet, when the time arrived Jesus not only acquiesced but He spoke for the disciples–to fulfill the prophecy (…not one has been lost…).

Finally, note that Jesus not only admonishes the three disciples of your example, but He states that “the spirit is weak.” I do not believe that there is a human urgency; rather, Jesus is preparing them for the spiritual battle revealed in Genesis 3:15 and Apocalypse 12–specially the final verse.

Maran atha!

Angel