Living Mystics?

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May I ask 2 questions? (with the preface that I must say that you sound incredibly believable, particularly the "God is the good, and we are merely the ‘power lines’ ‘transmitting’ His goodness to others part. I have thought that for quite awhile. And that Saints are people who just know how to get out of His way and let Him work through them better than others. If I understand you correctly :o)
  1. How do you know that this/these gift(s) are from God?
  2. What do you “do” to get there?
  3. You are still Catholic, right?
  4. What are you surprised about? :D;)
If you’d rather, you can answer me via PM (although I am not sure you can use it yet since you’ve just joined)
Dear Luigi,

I forgot to add in reply to your question #2, What do you “do” to get there?
I spent a lot of years feeling very unwell, so had plenty of time to read the same books over and over again. A lot of these books are available free to read online by googling Christian Classics Ethereal Library.
The two main “How-to” books were Evelyn Underhill’s Mysticism and St Teresa of Avila’s, *Way of Perfection *and also her Life. Also, *Imitation of Christ *(Thos a Kempis), *Cloud of Unknowing *(Anonymous) , *Ladder of Perfection *(Walter Hilton), *The Story of a Soul *(Therese of Lisieux), the writings of St. Francis (the movie about him, too prettified to be accurate but somehow true in spirit, is called Brother Sun, Sister Moon. I just watched it again on YouTube, but alas, the final part had a bit chopped off , so that kind of spoiled the effect.) I hadn’t realized until recently that some people consider this kind of reading, which gets you into a recollected state, to be a kind of contemplation. I used to have a book by Pope John the 23rd. That was good too and funny.–Sorpresa
 
Hi Luigi,

Thank you for your interest and for saying that I sound believable. I think I sound believable too. I read somewhere (maybe in Evelyn Underhill’s *Mysticism * ) that no one has ever been able to describe these experiences, but that we can tell, by the way they TRY to describe them, that they are all talking about the same thing.

I don’t feel as if I can begin exactly at the beginning here, not at the moment, but wanted to respond to you as soon as possible. Before I say anything, I want to say that St. John of the Cross has said, vis-a-vis ‘mystical’ experiences, that “many souls who have known nothing of such things have made incomparably greater progress than others who have received many of them” (Ascent of Mt. Carmel). And St. Teresa of Avila, in her autobiography, describes how she, after 20 years of searching for a spiritual director who understands her, finally meets a Jesuit who knows what she is talking about and who does not consider her mad, dishonest, a trouble-maker, an attention-seeker or possessed by the devil. He listens to what she has to say about all her exalted experiences, and he tells her what she needs to do. He is very surprised when she cannot carry out his instructions. He says the states the Lord has raised her to do not match up with the person she is. He tells her she probably doesn’t even know the meaning of the word, “mortification.” I read that for years before I realized I didn’t know the meaning of the word, “mortification.” I thought it meant something like, "utterly ashamed.’ I finally looked it up and it means, “to be dead to the world” – to care nothing for the world or any of what it has to offer, to care nothing for its opinion of me.

The most important thing I read in all the books for year after year was that we must PRAY. I read for decade after decade and did not get that we must ask for help in all things.

I shall try to answer your questions briefly, and yes, if you want to connect with me again. please send the Private Message if you prefer that. I’m not sure I know how to do that at the moment.
  1. How do you know these gifts are from God?
    That is a big question. I don’t know if I can answer that fully right now. I hope I can be at least accurate. There are people who are scholars who can think about these things in an organized way. I would like to know some of those people. I think we know because the proof is in the pudding. I would say, and I hope I am accurate, that it is the transformation in the person that is the proof.
I’ve known some dark people in my time, whose gifts were not from God. They can buzz people up, and even do “healings”, but it is clear from the effect they have on those around them, that there is something very wrong going on here. There is only one teacher, and nothing goes wrong around him. Anybody who wants to be ‘guru’ I would have nothing to do with. That’s not much of an answer, but I am being too long here.
  1. What do you do to get there?
    Again, a big question. Looking back, I see I simply should have asked him for help much, much sooner and far more often. I should have asked him for help and for wisdom, in everything from finding the keys to finding him. (Although, when it came down to it, it was more that he found me.)
  2. You are still Catholic, right?
    I think what I am is Catholic at the core. I will try to explain it by relating one of the experiences I had in 2004. (While sitting on my couch in my sitting room) I was in the crypt of a church (I was in London at the time these things happened.). I had a crowbar and I lifted one of the old worn stones up from the floor of the crypt with that. What I saw beneath the stone was what resembled a golden egg in a nest. The gold was not made of gold metal. It was made of gold light. This egg was Christ. There was a sort of gauzy membrane or excresence over and around the egg. It got the impression that the gauze was needed, perhaps because I wouldn’t have been able to look at the egg if there hadn’t been something between it and me to tone it down. Or perhaps for some other reason. St. John of the Cross says you should never interpret these things. After seeing the egg, I saw the outside of the church in my neighbourhood. It seemed to be covered in barnacles. The barnacles were all the things ‘not right’ about the church. On the one hand, it was as it these pictures said both that the barnacles are hiding Christ, the barnacles have got him captive. On the other hand, there was the view that he needs to be hidden from eyes that shouldn’t see him, and that even the worst aspects of the church, terrible as they have been, provide some of the camoflage.
4./ What are you surprised about?
I would say that the most surprising part of this for me is that, for 29 years, I was trying to reach Nirvana.

Please write again, if you care to.

Sorpresa

PS. Yes! about getting out of his way! That is all that prayer is. Get out of his way. I have made everything so difficult for myself by not understanding about prayer and am still trying so hard to learn and to remember that that is all I need do.
Thank you for the response. 🙂

I am sorry if I am being thick, but I still don’t know if you are a Catholic in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church??
 
Dear Luigi,

I forgot to add in reply to your question #2, What do you “do” to get there?
I spent a lot of years feeling very unwell, so had plenty of time to read the same books over and over again. A lot of these books are available free to read online by googling Christian Classics Ethereal Library.
The two main “How-to” books were Evelyn Underhill’s Mysticism and St Teresa of Avila’s, *Way of Perfection *and also her Life. Also, *Imitation of Christ *(Thos a Kempis), *Cloud of Unknowing *(Anonymous) , *Ladder of Perfection *(Walter Hilton), *The Story of a Soul *(Therese of Lisieux), the writings of St. Francis (the movie about him, too prettified to be accurate but somehow true in spirit, is called Brother Sun, Sister Moon. I just watched it again on YouTube, but alas, the final part had a bit chopped off , so that kind of spoiled the effect.) I hadn’t realized until recently that some people consider this kind of reading, which gets you into a recollected state, to be a kind of contemplation. I used to have a book by Pope John the 23rd. That was good too and funny.–Sorpresa
I had that book, too! Thanks for the recommendations:)
 
Thank you for the response. 🙂

I am sorry if I am being thick, but I still don’t know if you are a Catholic in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church??
Hi Luigi,

I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear.

I feel desperately I need to be part of the church. I went to confession and talked to a priest in England, and he said I was okay as far as receiving communion. As far as “full communion,” I’m not sure I know exactly what that means. I don’t think I have any problem with any of the beliefs of the Church. My problem arises when I go to church and – I can’t think of a way to put this politely – what I get is the political agenda of the people who happen to be in control at that church.

I have been living for five years in a place in Southern California that has changed my political views of a lifetime. I used to think there were things that were not really so bad, and now I see they are as bad as it gets. I have also attended a community college here for the past eight terms. I had no idea it had come to this.

I need to be part of the fight, but I can’t fight on the political level. My fight has to be on the spiritual level. I need the support of like-minded people who have the same values I have, that the children come first, that you don’t mess with somebody’s marriage. Where are these people?

I was just watching that man Michael Voris on RealCatholicTV.com. He was speaking just now about a growing Catholic presence on the Internet. I want to look into that. I also want to move to a part of the country that is more traditional. If you’ve got any ideas, please feel free to offer suggestions.

Thanks,

Sorpresa
 
Along with prayer; One of the things that will help keep you from error is staying in God,s word, ,reading it every day. Not skipping about but reading it through from cover to cover.

The Holy Spirit will never do or lead you to do something that is against scripture. He will lead you into the truth which is Jesus. Beware of your own private intrepretation. I can understand the need for fellowship with those that God is dealing with like you, for one longs for this .

The only way to truly get out of the way is to lose ones focus on onself and see just Jesus. This is done as one looks at Jesus and abides in Him . All the time.
One finds that the cross is everywhere and as one continues in Christ Jesus self seems to dissapear. It is where one chooses to live. In Christ Jesus or in one self.

We can live in Jesus, in His thoughts, and emotions, in His will. It is by doing this that we leave ourselves and enter into just Himself. It is something that He has to do within us .It is truely a work of His grace.
 
Hi Luigi,

I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear.

I feel desperately I need to be part of the church. I went to confession and talked to a priest in England, and he said I was okay as far as receiving communion. As far as “full communion,” I’m not sure I know exactly what that means. I don’t think I have any problem with any of the beliefs of the Church. My problem arises when I go to church and – I can’t think of a way to put this politely – what I get is the political agenda of the people who happen to be in control at that church.

I have been living for five years in a place in Southern California that has changed my political views of a lifetime. I used to think there were things that were not really so bad, and now I see they are as bad as it gets. I have also attended a community college here for the past eight terms. I had no idea it had come to this.

I need to be part of the fight, but I can’t fight on the political level. My fight has to be on the spiritual level. I need the support of like-minded people who have the same values I have, that the children come first, that you don’t mess with somebody’s marriage. Where are these people?

I was just watching that man Michael Voris on RealCatholicTV.com. He was speaking just now about a growing Catholic presence on the Internet. I want to look into that. I also want to move to a part of the country that is more traditional. If you’ve got any ideas, please feel free to offer suggestions.

Thanks,

Sorpresa
Thanks for the response. 🙂
 
Thank you so much for posting this. I’m in a real pickle about finding a priest to talk to about my own experiences, some of which I’m sure are mystical, for fear of all the things that happened to St Teresa. It’s nice to know some of the great Doctors of the Church were misunderstood and confused too 🙂
Hi Justicia et Pax,

Thank you very much for your post.

Yesterday, I looked up Kieran Kavanaugh, the man who translated St. Teresa’s books for the Carmelites in the USA. He has died now, but I want to find perhaps somebody who worked with him or some kind of scholar who knows how to look at these things from the outside. Someone like that would, I believe, be able to tell from the way we try to speak about these things that we are speaking from reality. I believe that is the sort of person we need to find, an expert in the field.

I am becoming wary about what I say on this site. I don’t want to get anything wrong or influence anyone in a bad way.

I do want to say something about my relationship with Jesus Christ.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, but never ‘got’ it. I ‘got’ God, but I never understood the Jesus Christ side of things. 35 years ago (when I was 29), I had the first experience. It was of what some people call, The Dazzling Dark, The Fullness of the Void – eternity, infinity, timelessness, perfect bliss. God was there. It included what I called, for a long time, “biblical imagery”. I could never understand why I’d had the biblical imagery as I did not consider myself a Christian at that time. I’d had a bad experience of the Catholic Church in my childhood, and, over the years, I came to loathe the sound of the name, “Jesus”. (Because of the people I associated with that name,)

Over the next three decades, I had similar experiences to the first one, not very often, and never as intense as the first. On three occasions, the person I was with had the experience too. Two of those people had had experiences before. One had not, and she thought I had “done it”. Of course, I hadn’t done it.

Previous to the experiences I had in October 2004, I’d spent ten years going to Bible Studies, talking to Christians, going to various churches, trying to ‘get’ Jesus Christ. Always failed.

Long story short, one Saturday lunchtime in that October, I am in the street market in London buying fruit and am hit with a full-blown Road to Damascus experience that lasts for almost six weeks. Surprise of my life. These experiences were of a very different kind to ones I’d had before.

Although I understand that these things are God’s gifts and not God himself, and although I can see why St. John of the Cross says these things are not necessary, I can’t help thinking that perhaps these things were necessary in my case – that this is what it was going to take to get through to me – because I wasn’t getting it, was I?

Sorpresa
 
Are there any living catholic mystics and where are they?
“Mystic” is just a label. A better question is: Are there any living Catholics? That is, Catholics who are truly alive? For only the dead are truly living.
 
Along with prayer; One of the things that will help keep you from error is staying in God,s word, ,reading it every day. Not skipping about but reading it through from cover to cover.

The Holy Spirit will never do or lead you to do something that is against scripture. He will lead you into the truth which is Jesus. Beware of your own private intrepretation. I can understand the need for fellowship with those that God is dealing with like you, for one longs for this .

The only way to truly get out of the way is to lose ones focus on onself and see just Jesus. This is done as one looks at Jesus and abides in Him . All the time.
One finds that the cross is everywhere and as one continues in Christ Jesus self seems to dissapear. It is where one chooses to live. In Christ Jesus or in one self.

We can live in Jesus, in His thoughts, and emotions, in His will. It is by doing this that we leave ourselves and enter into just Himself. It is something that He has to do within us .It is truely a work of His grace.
Thank you so much for this. This is so good. This is the real thing. Okay, I will read it from cover to cover instead of skipping about. Yes, I’m trying to get away from books, really, and just be in Truth. I think you must be a nun or someone very advanced. Thank you so much. I am going to repost this in BOLD if I can.

**Along with prayer; One of the things that will help keep you from error is staying in God,s word, ,reading it every day. Not skipping about but reading it through from cover to cover.

The Holy Spirit will never do or lead you to do something that is against scripture. He will lead you into the truth which is Jesus. Beware of your own private intrepretation. I can understand the need for fellowship with those that God is dealing with like you, for one longs for this .

The only way to truly get out of the way is to lose ones focus on onself and see just Jesus. This is done as one looks at Jesus and abides in Him . All the time.
One finds that the cross is everywhere and as one continues in Christ Jesus self seems to dissapear. It is where one chooses to live. In Christ Jesus or in one self.

We can live in Jesus, in His thoughts, and emotions, in His will. It is by doing this that we leave ourselves and enter into just Himself. It is something that He has to do within us .It is truely a work of His grace.**
 
Yesterday, I looked up Kieran Kavanaugh, the man who translated St. Teresa’s books for the Carmelites in the USA. He has died now, but I want to find perhaps somebody who worked with him or some kind of scholar who knows how to look at these things from the outside. Someone like that would, I believe, be able to tell from the way we try to speak about these things that we are speaking from reality. I believe that is the sort of person we need to find, an expert in the field.
I might have missed it, but have you read “Fire Within” by Fr Thomas Dubay? It’s considered a classic by many in the field of mysticism and is centered around the experiences, teachings, and writings of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross.
 
Hi Justicia et Pax,

Thank you very much for your post.

Yesterday, I looked up Kieran Kavanaugh, the man who translated St. Teresa’s books for the Carmelites in the USA. He has died now, but I want to find perhaps somebody who worked with him or some kind of scholar who knows how to look at these things from the outside. Someone like that would, I believe, be able to tell from the way we try to speak about these things that we are speaking from reality. I believe that is the sort of person we need to find, an expert in the field.

I am becoming wary about what I say on this site. I don’t want to get anything wrong or influence anyone in a bad way.

I do want to say something about my relationship with Jesus Christ.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, but never ‘got’ it. I ‘got’ God, but I never understood the Jesus Christ side of things. 35 years ago (when I was 29), I had the first experience. It was of what some people call, The Dazzling Dark, The Fullness of the Void – eternity, infinity, timelessness, perfect bliss. God was there. It included what I called, for a long time, “biblical imagery”. I could never understand why I’d had the biblical imagery as I did not consider myself a Christian at that time. I’d had a bad experience of the Catholic Church in my childhood, and, over the years, I came to loathe the sound of the name, “Jesus”. (Because of the people I associated with that name,)

Over the next three decades, I had similar experiences to the first one, not very often, and never as intense as the first. On three occasions, the person I was with had the experience too. Two of those people had had experiences before. One had not, and she thought I had “done it”. Of course, I hadn’t done it.

Previous to the experiences I had in October 2004, I’d spent ten years going to Bible Studies, talking to Christians, going to various churches, trying to ‘get’ Jesus Christ. Always failed.

Long story short, one Saturday lunchtime in that October, I am in the street market in London buying fruit and am hit with a full-blown Road to Damascus experience that lasts for almost six weeks. Surprise of my life. These experiences were of a very different kind to ones I’d had before.

Although I understand that these things are God’s gifts and not God himself, and although I can see why St. John of the Cross says these things are not necessary, I can’t help thinking that perhaps these things were necessary in my case – that this is what it was going to take to get through to me – because I wasn’t getting it, was I?

Sorpresa
It’s reassuring to hear a bit about your story. I don’t quite get many bits of Catholicism and certainly don’t feel Catholic enough for this website ⭕ Talking to academics can be quite fruitful. I hear voices - religious and secular, psychotic, intrusive thoughts and something more like locutions - and God thought it would be amusing to put me in the care of a university tutor whose research interest is medieval female mysticism 😃 I learned a lot from her in a very safe spiritual and loving environment 🙂

Can I ask what you mean by Biblical imagery? I think I’ve had that too, if we’re using the same meaning 🙂

Feel free to message me if you’d rather do that 🙂
 
. . .

Yesterday, I looked up Kieran Kavanaugh, the man who translated St. Teresa’s books for the Carmelites in the USA. He has died now, but I want to find perhaps somebody who worked with him or some kind of scholar who knows how to look at these things from the outside.
Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh is still very much alive and resides at the Discalced Carmelite monastery in Washington, D.C… 🙂
 
Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh is still very much alive and resides at the Discalced Carmelite monastery in Washington, D.C… 🙂
Wow, thanks for telling me that, Frances. Glad to hear it. I looked him up online and it said he’d died.

Sorpresa
 
It’s reassuring to hear a bit about your story. I don’t quite get many bits of Catholicism and certainly don’t feel Catholic enough for this website ⭕ Talking to academics can be quite fruitful. I hear voices - religious and secular, psychotic, intrusive thoughts and something more like locutions - and God thought it would be amusing to put me in the care of a university tutor whose research interest is medieval female mysticism 😃 I learned a lot from her in a very safe spiritual and loving environment 🙂

Can I ask what you mean by Biblical imagery? I think I’ve had that too, if we’re using the same meaning 🙂

Feel free to message me if you’d rather do that 🙂
Hi, J et P,

I’d be interested in hearing more about the university teacher.

I haven’t ever heard voices really, except for the occasional ‘voice that doesn’t make any sound’ if that makes any sense.

What I mean by the Biblical imagery is that, in that first really intense experience, there was a bit towards the end where I got three images, very common images. They probably don’t sound like much for people reading them in words. It was the quality of them that made the difference.

The first was the image of a giant hand and some grains of sand. I didn’t ‘hear’ any words, but I got the message that God really, really does know each grain of sand individually.

The second was similar. I ‘saw’ the top of my head, and understood that God really, really does know exactly how many hairs I’ve got on my head.

The third was an image of a huge pair of hands. They were suspended in the illuminated darkness of eternity and infinity, of forever. Above the pair of hands I was suspended in this place too (although, I did not see any image of myself – I’m not sure if that part is what St. Teresa of Avila calls an ‘intellectual’ vision. Does she mean when you ‘see’ something, but you don’t see any image?). The message I received was that, no matter what anything ever looks like in future, no matter how bad things look like they are, I am always suspended right above those hands.

I can’t tell you the impact of these pictures upon me because I can’t convey the quality of the experience. All I can say is that the things I saw in that first experience were more TRUE than my whole life, than the whole world. Soon after I came out of it, I thought to myself that the Truth in that experience is more true than the sight of my own hand, more solid and real than my whole personal history, more true to me than that I know what my name is.

I don’t know if I am Catholic enough for this website either, but it is the first one I’ve ever found where people seem to be genuinely interested in these things, and where their responses have genuinely helped me.

I don’t know if I know how to message, and my computer is really playing up now. I take it to the shop all the time. Now I have taken to giving it a good shake to get it to work. That seems to be successful so far.

Please let me know more about the university teacher if you feel okay about that. Perhaps you should use the Private Message thingie if that is appropriate.

Sorpresa
 
I’m not sure if that part is what St. Teresa of Avila calls an ‘intellectual’ vision. Does she mean when you ‘see’ something, but you don’t see any image?).
I believe the Beatific Vision which is the vision of God, is an example of what ST would refer to as an intellectual vision. It’s to have absolute, direct intuitive knowledge of something, as if you were perceiving it through the senses, but without needing any sense perception to be involved. It’s really a supernatural gift of knowledge, i.e. “knowingness”, but pretty much impossible for us to relate anything to from everyday life.
 
I might have missed it, but have you read “Fire Within” by Fr Thomas Dubay? It’s considered a classic by many in the field of mysticism and is centered around the experiences, teachings, and writings of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross.
Hi,

Before my computer conks out again, may I say thank you for this suggestion. I shall look into this.

This site is the only site I’ve ever found where the people are genuinely interested in these things without putting too much emphasis on them. I thank all you guys. Everything you have said has been a huge help already.

And now that Frances has told me Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh is alive, I’m going to look him up again! (More carefully this time.)

Sorpresa
 
Hi,

Before my computer conks out again, may I say thank you for this suggestion. I shall look into this.

This site is the only site I’ve ever found where the people are genuinely interested in these things without putting too much emphasis on them. I thank all you guys. Everything you have said has been a huge help already.

And now that Frances has told me Fr. Kieran Kavanaugh is alive, I’m going to look him up again! (More carefully this time.)

Sorpresa
You may’ve read that Father Dubay died, last September, I believe.
 
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