Living Mystics?

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sorpresa said:
Hi, J et P,

I’d be interested in hearing more about the university teacher.

I haven’t ever heard voices really, except for the occasional ‘voice that doesn’t make any sound’ if that makes any sense.

What I mean by the Biblical imagery is that, in that first really intense experience, there was a bit towards the end where I got three images, very common images. They probably don’t sound like much for people reading them in words. It was the quality of them that made the difference.

The first was the image of a giant hand and some grains of sand. I didn’t ‘hear’ any words, but I got the message that God really, really does know each grain of sand individually.

The second was similar. I ‘saw’ the top of my head, and understood that God really, really does know exactly how many hairs I’ve got on my head.

The third was an image of a huge pair of hands. They were suspended in the illuminated darkness of eternity and infinity, of forever. Above the pair of hands I was suspended in this place too (although, I did not see any image of myself – I’m not sure if that part is what St. Teresa of Avila calls an ‘intellectual’ vision. Does she mean when you ‘see’ something, but you don’t see any image?). The message I received was that, no matter what anything ever looks like in future, no matter how bad things look like they are, I am always suspended right above those hands.

I can’t tell you the impact of these pictures upon me because I can’t convey the quality of the experience. All I can say is that the things I saw in that first experience were more TRUE than my whole life, than the whole world. Soon after I came out of it, I thought to myself that the Truth in that experience is more true than the sight of my own hand, more solid and real than my whole personal history, more true to me than that I know what my name is.

I don’t know if I am Catholic enough for this website either, but it is the first one I’ve ever found where people seem to be genuinely interested in these things, and where their responses have genuinely helped me.

I don’t know if I know how to message, and my computer is really playing up now. I take it to the shop all the time. Now I have taken to giving it a good shake to get it to work. That seems to be successful so far.

Please let me know more about the university teacher if you feel okay about that. Perhaps you should use the Private Message thingie if that is appropriate.

Sorpresa
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What would you like to know about this tutor? Her name is Elisabeth Dutton and she is an English Fellow at Oxford University. Her two main research interests are pre-Shakespearean drama (medieval and early reformation) and medieval mystical and devotional writings. She’s written extensively on Julian of Norwich, as well as another medieval mystic called Hadjewich. She’s not a theologian, so her knowledge of mysticism doesn’t come from that background, but she does have a very creative and sensitive understanding of mysticism. She’s Presbyterian but knows about Catholic saints due to the mysticism interest and because her husband had been training as a Jesuit when he met her.

She has pastoral duties at Oxford as well as academic ones and so I went to her for welfare help. She ended up looking after me for a whole academic year. She was staging some medieval mystery plays about the Nativity and later on, some Passion plays. I told her I heard voices and she was very understanding and provided a safe environment in which I could talk about my voices and religious experiences. She took very good care of me and we developed a strong Christian friendship 🙂
 
fhansen said:
I believe the Beatific Vision which is the vision of God, is an example of what ST would refer to as an intellectual vision. It’s to have absolute, direct intuitive knowledge of something, as if you were perceiving it through the senses, but without needing any sense perception to be involved. It’s really a supernatural gift of knowledge, i.e. “knowingness”, but pretty much impossible for us to relate anything to from everyday life.
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Yes, in the Beatific Vision one sees God directly, and not through any senses. Calling it an “intellectual vision” or an “intuitive knowledge” can be correct as far as the words go, but it is really a state of “seeing” all the same, seeing and immersion.
 
Stylites said:
Yes, in the Beatific Vision one sees God directly, and not through any senses. Calling it an “intellectual vision” or an “intuitive knowledge” can be correct as far as the words go, but it is really a state of “seeing” all the same, seeing and immersion.
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Yes, if by that we mean the “seeing” involves no images. The knowledge bypasses the need for such perceptions.
 
Stylites said:
Yes, in the Beatific Vision one sees God directly, and not through any senses. Calling it an “intellectual vision” or an “intuitive knowledge” can be correct as far as the words go, but it is really a state of “seeing” all the same, seeing and immersion.
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no one in creation can “see” the beatific vision intellectually.

peace
 
fhansen said:
Yes, if by that we mean the “seeing” involves no images. The knowledge bypasses the need for such perceptions.
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In what way do you mean “no images”? In the Beatific Vision, one beholds God in heaven as He is, directly. That is not an “image” (or even “images”) since God has no image or form, and yet it is a vision, a seeing.

Perceptions relate to the senses, which have been rolled up and subsumed before heaven is even reached.
 
Stylites said:
In what way do you mean “no images”? In the Beatific Vision, one beholds God in heaven as He is, directly. That is not an “image” (or even “images”) since God has no image or form, and yet it is a vision, a seeing.

Perceptions relate to the senses, which have been rolled up and subsumed before heaven is even reached.
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The vision is to know God immediately-to be immersed in His presence-it’s a gift which has no correlation in earthly experience. There is no image to see; the seeing/beholding is the knowing.
 
fhansen said:
The vision is to know God immediately-to be immersed in His presence-it’s a gift which has no correlation in earthly experience. There is no image to see; the seeing/beholding is the knowing.
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Yes, except there is a “seeing” which happens, hence the reason it’s called the Beatific Vision rather than the Beatific Knowing.

In the direct vision of God, one comes to know Him, and see Him.
 
do you think the angels who “stand in the presence of God” behold the beatific vision?

peace
 
I’ve noticed i am altering the op.

not intended!

All good angels see God in the beatific vision, but the superior angels behold deeper and wider mysteries in God than do the lesser angels. By their deeper and wider knowledge of divine mysteries, the superior angels are said to assist.

jesus-passion.com/angels.htm

to bridge back to the op

What do mystics “see” (not beatific)

peace
 
Sorry I was doing too many things at once. Please forgive?

The OP questions living mystics?

There is a difference between the Beatific Vision and the mystical vision.

no living(in the flesh) being would stay in the flesh if it beheld the Beatific vision?

right?

peace
 
hazcompat said:
no living(in the flesh) being would stay in the flesh if it beheld the Beatific vision?
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Stay in the flesh? Yes and no. A person has to die in order to see God in heaven; Who can then choose to resurrect the person.
 
Stylites said:
Stay in the flesh? Yes and no. A person has to die in order to see God in heaven; Who can then choose to resurrect the person.
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No! if the soul beheld the Beatific vision it would leap to its creator!

peace
 
hazcompat said:
No! if the soul beheld the Beatific vision it would leap to its creator!

peace
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You are speaking of the resurection of he body. that will be in 'no time". i thought we were talking about time?

peace
 
The Beatific Vision may not have been the best example but I believe it’s on the same order as an intellectual vision in any case because it’s an infused perception or gift of knowledge which is otherwise completely unattainable by a created, finite being.

In earthly experience we come to know someone via perceiving them with our senses. The knowledge of them, however, remains after we’ve perceived them directly. But I’d suggest that the actual knowledge of the person-who they are- of their nature, their character, their love, etc transcends the perceptions because these are intangibles to begin with. Now, if a superior being were to infuse into us those intangibles, this knowledge of who they are, without the benefit of sense perception, this would be an intellectual vision. But, like I said, there simply is no earthly correlation to it.
 
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