Living together before the Sacrament of Marriage

[Bookcat]

, and I was wondering what you would suggest for my current living situation? Should I be ensuring the welbeing of an innocent child first and foremost, and be looking to move out within 6 months or should I be looking to move out ASAP?

One can insure the wellbeing of a child via other means than living together (which still gives a bad example to the child and can give scandal to others etc…read the two links I posted above…it is really not the way to go). The end does not justify the means.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I always wondered why there seemed to be two commandments having to do with adultery.
.In the middle ages, the 6th Commandment was translated as “adultery” At the time, the word meant any sexual activity before marriage.Now the word means unfaithfulness by married persons. “Adultery” is covered by the 9th Commandment.
But, the original Latin for the 6th Commandment was “non fornica”. No fornication. Fornication is the sin of sexual relations between unmarried persons. Therefore, couples having sex before marriage are committing the sin of fornication. Also, the sexual act is the reproductive act, and obviously intended to be used only by married people.

lolwut? In the Middle AGes it was translated as avouterer, which meant adultery in our sense, the sin of adultery is above and beyond fornication

 

[Lost_Sheep]

**

Sadly, people observe high divorce rates and feel overwhelmed. I am very sorry when parents and society fail to show enough examples of long -term, loving marriages to encourage young people to emulate them.
**
:harp:

Remember when “staying together for the sake of the children” was considered a noble thing to do?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

“Practical reasons” are not a reason to live together …even if one is “chaste otherwise”.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=498040&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2010&Author=&Keyword=living+together&pgnu=2&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=63&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=487594&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2010&Author=&Keyword=living+together&pgnu=2&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=76&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Sin of Scandal???

It may not be right, but with so many people doing it, living together is hardly a scandal anymore.

 

[Bookcat]

Sin of Scandal???

It may not be right, but with so many people doing it, living together is hardly a scandal anymore.

You would be incorrect there. Not on the fact that many are doing it…but rather on the scandal part. And as Christians…such a living situation is not really the way to go.

From the document of the Kansas Bishops:

"Is Scandal Still a Possibility?

For society: As society no longer adheres to traditional moral values and norms, scandal becomes less and less of a concern to many people. Even so, the church still teaches clearly and consistently that premarital sexual intercourse objectively is mortally sinful. Couples who live together, even if they are not engaging in premarital sexual relations, give the impression to the community that such an arrangement is totally acceptable."

 

[anp1215]

You would be incorrect there. Not on the fact that many are doing it…but rather on the scandal part. And as Christians…such a living situation is not really the way to go.

From the document of the Kansas Bishops:

"Is Scandal Still a Possibility?

For society: As society no longer adheres to traditional moral values and norms, scandal becomes less and less of a concern to many people. Even so, the church still teaches clearly and consistently that premarital sexual intercourse objectively is mortally sinful. Couples who live together, even if they are not engaging in premarital sexual relations, give the impression to the community that such an arrangement is totally acceptable. Additionally, should the couple marry and later divorce there is widespread acceptance of such an event. Is it any wonder that the United States has the highest divorce rate in the world?"

So, if a couple truly cannot afford to live in separate residences before the wedding, what should they do? Draw straws to determine who has to live under the bridge? A couple of posters have said that their priest gave the OK when it was their only option. Is it the best idea? No. Will it cause temptation to sin? Probably. Will it cause scandal? If someone is going to enter this situation, they should make it clear to all friends and relatives that they are sleeping separately and not engaging in sex. If Aunt Bertha doesn’t want to believe them and instead gossips and spreads rumors, well, that’s her own fault. She should assume the positive. We can only do so much to avoid scandalizing others, in the end, some people are going to talk about you and be nasty no matter what. That’s a sin on their part.

 

[Bookcat]

So, if a couple truly cannot afford to live in separate residences before the wedding, what should they do?

What they were born living together???

They afforded it before…they can afford it now.

And if they can not afford it…get a room-mate…rent a single room…live with their parents or relatives.

What would they do if they were not getting married???

Find the right way.

Telling some people does not work…sorry. One can not tell everyone…and as one poster said who did that said…they later found out that they thought “ya ok. sure…wink wink”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8457952&postcount=19

 

[anp1215]

What they were born living together???

They afforded it before…they can afford it now.

And if they can not afford it…get a room-mate…rent a single room…live with their parents or relatives.

What would they do if they were not getting married???

Find the right way.

Telling some people does not work…sorry. One can not tell everyone…and as one poster said who did that said…they later found out that they thought “ya ok. sure…wink wink”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8457952&postcount=19

The options you listed aren’t available to everyone. Every circumstance is unique.
And as I said, if the couple tells their friends and relatives, and the friends/relatives choose to ignore them and believe what they want, that’s the friends/relatives problem. They are the ones who are sinning by assuming things about the couple, and if they talk about it with others, they are spreading gossip and falsehoods.
I saw your link already…these priests say it’s a sin. OK, well the two priests mentioned by other posters said it wasn’t necessarily a sin, just not the best idea, and it could create temptation. I agree that it’s a bad idea, but I do not agree that it is always a sin, 100% of the time, no exceptions.

 

[Bearontherun]

So many unmarried couples today cite financial reasons as the main cause for their cohabitation. They are walking into a risky situation that is full of temptation and scandal to others in exchange for what they perceive as a financial benefit. Yes, there may be more money when there is only one rent to pay, etc. but is living together really necessary?

If a couple thinks they need to live together right away due to dire financial reasons, I think that they should seek to get married quicker rather than cohabit and wait for a wedding. A priest would probably be more than willing to fast track the marriage preparation process if he saw that a couple was in a real financial crisis and ready to begin their married life.

 

[Bookcat]

The options you listed aren’t available to everyone. Every circumstance is unique.
And as I said, if the couple tells their friends and relatives, and the friends/relatives choose to ignore them and believe what they want, that’s the friends/relatives problem. They are the ones who are sinning by assuming things about the couple, and if they talk about it with others, they are spreading gossip and falsehoods.
I saw your link already…these priests say it’s a sin. OK, well the two priests mentioned by other posters said it wasn’t necessarily a sin, just not the best idea, and it could create temptation. I agree that it’s a bad idea, but I do not agree that it is always a sin, 100% of the time, no exceptions.

Read what the Bishops wrote.

Look it is simple. What would they have done (morally) before they met.

Do that.

 

[Wardog]

:angel1:I see a trend in the general population: So many engaged couples setting up house before the Wedding. I attended a wedding where several young singles from out of town took hotel rooms together. There were many children attending, and as they had fun visiting rooms to say hi to their relatives, I worried about the example shown them. None of the parents had any problem with this at all, and none of the young singles were even engaged! A few months later, we received one wedding “save the date” card. They have now been living together for five years prior to their wedding a year from now. They are each from a Catholic background. Should anyone have said something to all these single couples at that original wedding, and if so, what? If not, is there anything to be done to gently steer young people away from this trend? Sadly, many are either not attending Mass or if they are, seem not to worry. I pray that we can reach them, compassionately, and will continue to pray about this. Ideas welcome!
Kathryn Ann:harp::angel1:

Of course you could also have considered congratulating them on getting married.

 

[Bookcat]

The options you listed aren’t available to everyone. Every circumstance is unique.
And as I said, if the couple tells their friends and relatives, and the friends/relatives choose to ignore them and believe what they want, that’s the friends/relatives problem. They are the ones who are sinning by assuming things about the couple, and if they talk about it with others, they are spreading gossip and falsehoods.
I saw your link already…these priests say it’s a sin. OK, well the two priests mentioned by other posters said it wasn’t necessarily a sin, just not the best idea, and it could create temptation. I agree that it’s a bad idea, but I do not agree that it is always a sin, 100% of the time, no exceptions.

Read what the Bishops wrote.

Look it is simple. What would they have done (morally) before they met? (something tells me that it was not living on the street…)

Do that.

Then get married if they discern such. Perhaps sooner if it is so judged.

(There is also the very very serious harm that loomes for them in their future marriage… from living together…as I recall studies have shown)

 

[Speedypizza]

I have read all of the posts and have not yet found much reference to the real problem here. Having been a Pagan for 19 years who lived openly with 2 different girls over the years, including the mother of my daughter. What I find lacking here is any mention of the value of the **sacrament **of marriage.

We can blame the hippies and blame society all we like, but the real blame is on us for not teaching people the meaning of a sacrament. For most of my life I thought marriage was just a piece of paper. Having been raised Baptist, I learned the teaching that sex before marriage is wrong, but I never heard anything about special graces being given to a couple.

To tell people you think that they should not live together because they need a piece of paper first is silly any way you look at it. Who says what is or is not a valid piece of paper in this case, the government? You can see why people in a society who do not trust the government do not care about paper from the government. However they might care about graces being given them by God and his Church.

We have the fullness of truth and it is our job to teach others this truth, if we do not instruct others on the value of the sacrament of marriage, who will? The secular society sure will not, and our protestant brothers cannot. The only people left to teach this truth is us, and if we want to start with this great call, let us start with our own parishes. Let us start to teach to our young people WHY they should wait to have sex, not just pound on them to do it because we said so. Let us start to look at couples who are living together outside of marriage not as bad people who need to be shunned, but sad people who are missing a great joy, grace and peace that should be theirs.

Once we take care of the board in our own eye, we will be able to see clearly to help society with the splinter in its own.

Pax

 

[anp1215]

Read what the Bishops wrote.

Look it is simple. What would they have done (morally) before they met.

Do that.

I don’t know, maybe the girl was living with her abusive father, and she finally leaves. She doesn’t know where else to go, so she moves into her fiance’s apartment. Every circumstance is different. You are not going to convince me it is a sin 100% of the time, no matter the circumstance. So there’s no point in discussing it further. Have a good day.

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t know, maybe the girl was living with her abusive father, and she finally leaves. She doesn’t know where else to go, so she moves into her fiance’s apartment. Every circumstance is different. You are not going to convince me it is a sin 100% of the time, no matter the circumstance. So there’s no point in discussing it further. Have a good day.

I am* not *trying to convince you that it is a sin 100% of the time…

He should find new arrangements for her other than her living with her abusive Father…a female friend…a room to rent…a stay for a while at a convent…etc etc Not just take the attractive way of having her move in…

There yes could be all sorts of rare events…heck like some war breaks out in their country an they have to flee together …some horrible natural disaster …etc…that may bring two unrelated members of the opposite sex together theoretically…(at such a time of course they need to reduce the occasion for sin of course). But such happenings are not an argument that Christians of opposite sex ought to live together for financial reasons etc. (not that you are saying such)

 

[Elizabeth502]

To tell people you think that they should not live together because they need a piece of paper first is silly any way you look at it. Who says what is or is not a valid piece of paper in this case, the government? You can see why people in a society who do not trust the government do not care about paper from the government. However they might care about graces being given them by God and his Church.

Those matrimonial graces are not limited to Catholic marriages:

canon law defines natural marriage this way: “The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its very nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children” (Canon 1055, § 1).

When both the husband and the wife are baptized Christians, this natural marriage takes on the element of sacramentality. A marriage between baptized persons is a sacrament, a visible sign of God’s love in the world. This means that the couple finds in their relationship a source of God’s grace, and through their partnership they assist one another in coming closer to God.

By the very fact that both the husband and the wife are baptized, their marriage becomes a sacrament. It is not a matter of where the wedding takes place or who officiates at the ceremony. Whether marriage is a sacrament is completely based upon the baptismal status of the parties.

catholicnewagency.com/resource.php?n=409

 

[Lost_Sheep]

When both the husband and the wife are baptized Christians, this natural marriage takes on the element of sacramentality. A marriage between baptized persons is a sacrament, a visible sign of God’s love in the world. This means that the couple finds in their relationship a source of God’s grace, and through their partnership they assist one another in coming closer to God

.

What if they were never baptized?

 

[twoangels]

The problem is how young people approach dating. Dating is no longer just going on an outing to the movies. It is considered entering into a relationship which takes gradual steps to greater and greater levels of commitment. Their goal is not to pick a good spouse, but to follow their heart and keep the flame alive from the beginning. If they can make it work for years, they tend to want to have a wedding to celebrate their success. In some ways the marriage is seen like a graduation. They often do not commit to each other anymore than they were committed before their wedding. If they are religious, they tend to hold this idea that the sacrament of marriage gives them merely special graces to help them the rest of the way. It blesses their relationship and puts them in God’s favor.

Since they do not see marriage as the exchanging of matrimonial consent and entering into a sacred covenant, they overcommit prior to marriage and undercommit when they get married.

I think the best book I’ve seen on the subject is Wing to Wing Oar to Oar by Leon Kass. It addresses the much broader issues involved. It is not simply an issue of fornication. It is a whole wrong approach to courtship and marriage.

 

[taxpayer]

Any Catholic who thinks a man and women living together and having sexual relations is not wrong better go back to school. This is too fundamental of a question.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m a 22 year old guy and I’m very new to Catholicism (and also Christianity (since October 1st 2011)) and I was previously aetheist as are all my family and friends so having to work it out without guidance from family/friends. I have cohabited before marriage, but I have every intention of NEVER cohabiting again until I am married (although I am currently living with my ex-girlfriend due to financal reasons and wanting to ensure the welbeing of her son (from a previous relationship and not my biological child) as personally I feel that as an adult I should be responsible and put an innocent childs needs before my own (we sleep in separate rooms, a fact all her family are well aware of). I now know how wrong I have been In the way I have lived my life previously and I wish to follow gods plan for my life and be chaste until marriage, not live with a woman until I say “I do”, and to be a better and more moral person, and I was wondering what you would suggest for my current living situation? Should I be ensuring the welbeing of an innocent child first and foremost, and be looking to move out within 6 months or should I be looking to move out ASAP?

Thankyou for taking the time to read this, and I appologise if it is slightly off topic.

-Aaron

Aaron, I don’t know what ypou mean exactly by “ensuring the well-being” of the child, but if you feel that his mother is too irresponsible, emotionally ill-equipped, or even dangerous to him in some way, if they cannot survive financially at the moment, then I’m less worried about scandal than his well-being.

However, the longer you stay in the house the more he will identify you as Dad. Are you prepared to commit to a possibly lifelong relationship of being the father-figure to this boy? How will you establish a healthy relationship with a woman in future from your present location? If you leave suddenly, how much emotional damage will you do, to the boy, it’s the same as divorce.

I think you love him, and I commend you. I’d like to see you all get family counseling. Regardless of your physical relationship at the moment, you are functioning as a family. He is experiencing this as his family, you as his father. I hope you will consider this and find a way for both of you to prioritize his needs while also working out a plan to fulfill your own.

God bless you abundantly and welcome Home.