Living together out of marriage

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cybrscream:
Regarding my most recent post, I wasn’t meaning that I disagree, I just want this to be a post regarding hard evidence…not claims that God thinks so because somebody just SAYS it’s so. Read into posts carefully before you reply please.

My thoughts on this subject were brought about because I’ve found no evidence to prove that “cohabitation” is wrong. And no one has brought about any scriptural evidence to prove otherwise. The Church’s reasoning is obviously based on chastity, and not on anything else. And that’s fine…I don’t agree with it, but that’s not going to keep me from converting. I will tell the priest who hears my first confession that I am guilty of premarital cohabitation…but I will eventually be married, and I know that…AND God knows that too, unless He’s got other plans for me!!! So if God thinks that what I’ve done in the past is wrong, I’m sure He’ll let me know that when I pass, but I also know that He will forgive me if in fact it was wrong for me to do such things.
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It seems to me no one directly answered your first question as to why the Church says premarital cohabitation is wrong. One of God’s commandments states that “you shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14). I will assume that by premarital cohabitation you mean not only living together but engaging in sexual intercourse. Strictly speaking, premarital sex is not adultery. However, adultery is very closely related to fornication. Premarital sex is fornication. Jesus names fornication along with murder, adultery, theft, false witness and slander as those things that “defile” a person.

Also in regards to confession, I believe that what you think, is more important than what God thinks. He gave us a mind and a will with which he asked us to use to “know” Him and “love” Him. Therefore, it seems to me that you must first understand His commands, then judge in your heart whether you’ve lived up to what God has commanded. If you are then repentent, you will confession your sins and remove the sin from your life.
 
I’ve got to add one more thing…the above mentioned post hit the target when he said that it seems nobody has answered my question. The rest of his assumptions regarding myself could have been kept to himself…However, I WANT TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR…AND I’M NOT TYPING IN CAPS TO SIGNIFY THAT I’M ANGRY, I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO READ CAREFULLY. I SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT I KNOW WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS REGARDING THE ISSUE. I ALSO STATED THAT I WANTED CITED BIBLICAL OR SOME OTHER IMPORTANT HISTORICAL EVIDENCE SAYING WHY THE TOPIC IS IMMORAL…I ALSO MADE IT VERY EVIDENT THAT I DIDN’T WANT CHASTITY TO BE BROUGHT UP…this is because, again, I am well versed in the teachings of both the Bible and the Church…I just wanted to verify why, other than chastity issues, the Church views cohabitation prior to marriage as immoral.

I’ve studied the entire Bible, most of the Catechism, most of the Catholic Encyclopedia, and many other texts regarding the Church, it’s history, and it’s teachings.

I just wish somebody would carefully read the original post, and answer it, if there is an answer to be found. All other posts are obvious. I want to make it very clear that I am in no way oblivious to the Church’s teachings, and that all posts so far have been written as if they were written for the mundane…which by far I am not. You guys all need to be very careful as to how you come across, and I am trying to do the same for you. Nobody judge me, as I have not judged you. And honestly, I haven’t judged you, I’ve simply asked that you all use your God given sense, and answer appropriately, or not at all.
 
I Cor 6: 18 " Flee sexual immorality…"

Matt. 15:19-20 - fornication included in list of things that defile a man
 
Cyber,
Why not just get married?

Do you realize what kind of temptation you will be prone to if you live together for an extended period of time?

Why put yourself in the position of having to fight off great temptation and sin, just for financial reasons?

I am only guessing here, but I would guess that the Church looks down on cohabitation because it is naturally assumed that two people living together 24/7 will have a terrible time resisting the urge to “act” as married people in all aspects, including sex.
And I’m not bashing you at all, but if you have that little sexual attraction for her that you are sure you can live with her and not give in to temptation, are you CERTAIN she’s the one??? (I am only half joking with that comment, btw)

Continue to pray on it and by all means, get married if it is the right time to do so.
 
Well I’m only 20 years old, going on 21. The plan is to get hired with the job that I’m currently in the hiring process with, and then after my first paycheck or two, I will buy engagement rings. The next step is to figure out when and where to ask my girlfriend to marry me, and then to do it. She’s a year younger than me, and we’ve been dating for about 8 months. We’ve discussed marriage, and it’s something we both want to do…

As for the topic at hand, here is some more information further proving my point that “Free Union” only regards people who never intend to wed, or who cannont deal with the tempations that come with chastity.

CCC

2380 Adultery** refers to marital **infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.

This obviously states that adultery is only involved with marriage. Don’t try to say that the condemnation of adultery of mere desire involves free unions, because above it specifically states that adultery ONLY refers to marital infidelity, whether physical or by mental desire. Any other claims regarding adultery, would be against Church teaching, and you guys wouldn’t want to do that, because this whole time you have been preaching to me about ABSOLUTELY following the Church’s teachings. I’ll forgive you though, if you are just uneducated…and if that’s the case, study the CCC, and the Bible more often.
 
Here we have several issues. First, “union” obviously does not apply to every couple cohabiting because my girlfriend and I are very adamant in commitment. We both are full of trust for the other, and in our own fidelity…if we are this way now, we must be the same after marriage, because the studies on cohabitation that say that living together before marriage causes divorce is based on the assumption that every cohabiting couple has relationship problems prior to marriage, so they must have problems after marriage. COME ON!?!, who comes up with this BS? That seems very uneducated to me, and most definitely unscientific. Those studies that say that are obviously biased. The study results come from a number of people who represent the population…which can never be accurate. Were you live, how you were raised, etc., etc., etc…all these things can skew those study results…
 
LASTLY, I generously included the last section about the fact that the sex act is a grave sin outside of marriage.** THIS IS TO PROVE TO YOU THAT FOLKS, I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE CHASTITY ISSUES…SO PLEASE, LEAVE THEM OUT OF THIS THREAD SO THAT I DON’T HAVE TO SIFT THROUGH ANNOYING INFORMATION THAT YOU CAN SAVE FOR SOMEBODY WHO ACTUALLY NEEDS IT.**

**Thanks again, **
Cyberscream

P.S.
Please don’t post unless you are going to at least make an attempt at answering my question intelligently. So far, all I have recieved are people’s and the Church’s beliefs on other subjects…I’m not interested in this thread going off on anymore tangents.
 
Cyber,
You are playing with fire.

That is why people are trying to dissuade you from your current choice.

Whether or not the Bible or the CCC literally says, Yo Cyber do not live with your girlfriend b/c the temptations will be nearly impossible to imagine, does not really matter.
It is the truth!

If you are young and finances are an important matter (I have been 19 and 20 and I know how financially difficult a time it is…I wouldn’t recommend marriage quite yet either), then a more mature and responsible alternative would be to get separate apartments, with roommates to help with the costs.

I also think that you are not even taking into consideration the thought of how difficult is it to live with another person, day in and day out. No matter how in love you are, it is a hard road.
Without the permanence of marriage I can see how it would be tempting to “cut your losses” if things aren’t going perfectly and thereby give up a perfectly good relationship because you don’t understand what trials and tribulations your dear girlfriend will put you through. Especially after only 8 months together.
In addition to that, it takes away some of the ‘specialness’ of the wedding day and starting a “new life”. It will be figurative only, the literal having been already experienced.

There are so many more arguments against it than for it, so what is the real issue here?

Why do you want to do it, or do you just want proof that the Church is against cohabitation with sex and not against cohabitation and chastity?
 
When my husband and I got engaged, he already owned a house, and I was unemployed and sleeping on a friend’s couch. In the world’s eyes, it would have made perfect sense for us to live together (“as brother and sister”, as the Church delicately puts it). Still, we made sacrifices in order to continue living apart. We knew it was the moral thing to do. Consulting with priests and friends just served to strengthen our convictions.

Here are the two big reasons against living together.
  1. Occasion of grave sin. If we manage to remain chaste in our courtship, it’s thanks to our cooperation with God’s grace – not our own strength. We should show our humility and gratitude by avoiding all unnecessary temptation. If we’re prideful, God just might ease off with His protection, and give us an opportunity to see how weak we really are.
  2. Occasion of grave scandal. Unless the two of you wear t-shirts saying “Hey folks, we’re not fornicating” - and even if you do! - people are likely to think you’re being unchaste. On the other hand, if they know the details of your situation, they might be influenced to start cohabiting themselves. Even if you’ve been able to resist temptation, they might not.
Those should be compelling reasons for any Catholic. We don’t believe in flirting with mortal sin, for ourselves or others. (Besides, if we cause grave scandal to others, that constitutes a mortal sin for us.)

Here’s something else to chew on.
  1. Nobody thinks a broken engagement is going to happen to them, but it’s a real possibility. About 50% of engagements are broken off before the wedding day. (A brief survey of my friends and family suggests that the rate might be higher in orthodox Catholic circles.) Those who chose to live with their former fiances - even for a short time - deeply regret having done so. Their future marriage will lose some of the special “newness” of living with one’s beloved for the first time. There’s no way to erase those past memories and experiences.
Yes, this is all about what “might” happen. Yes, there’s a small possibility that you might manage avoid all three of the above fates. It’s just too big a risk to take.

Hold out for the best! God will help you find a way to meet your housing needs, until the happy day when you can live together as husband and wife.

God bless,
Mrs. R
 
Living with one another and being chaste would be very frustrating for each other.
 
The Rigbys:
  1. Nobody thinks a broken engagement is going to happen to them, but it’s a real possibility. About 50% of engagements are broken off before the wedding day. (A brief survey of my friends and family suggests that the rate might be higher in orthodox Catholic circles.) Those who chose to live with their former fiances - even for a short time - deeply regret having done so. Their future marriage will lose some of the special “newness” of living with one’s beloved for the first time. There’s no way to erase those past memories and experiences.
God bless,
Mrs. R
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I almost called it off, but I married the guy and we now teach pre-cana. I loved having the free will to call it off, I didn’t feel pressured and already in it because I was living with him. That ability to walk away, allowed to deal with the issue (we solved it) and address it without itbeing clouded with the fact we living together and joined at the hip before marriage.
 
Cyber,

First let me say that I do not have any extra Scripture or documentation to offer you that the other posters offered.

You seem to have plans to work hard and support your future wife, which is very laudable, contrasting you with those I knew at your age who “just don’t know what they want to do with their lives.”

I encourage you not to get caught up in the things the world finds important: big nice wedding, diamond rings, the perfect car and house, etc. Most Catholic churches I have ever been in are quite beautiful, and no huge amount of decorative expense would be necessary to give a beautiful wedding.

My spouse gave me no engagement ring when he asked me to marry, on account of we were both in college and BROKE. When we married, I got a simple gold band with the promise that diamonds may come on a future anniversary. What’s important is not the ring, it’s that we pledged to love each other until death part us.

Any wedding will cost at least a few hundred dollars, if you want to hold a reception especially. I am not denying that. The issues of money in a marriage are not trivial, but please don’t make them out to be more important than faith and submission to the Holy Catholic Church and remembering the big picture! If you and your beloved are willing to pledge your lives to each other after living together, then please obey this counter-cultural commandment of the Church that has been observed for thousands of years. The acceptance of living together before marriage has only been culturally “accepted” for a generation. History has the truth on it’s side!
 
My best friend has lived with her boyfriend for 10 years, its so sad and very hard for me to watch, they lived together and she became pregnant almost 10 years ago and they now have two children that came out of this unwed situation. In the beginning she told me that they would get married after that first child was born but once that child was born they never did and I asked her why not and she said her boyfriend never mentioned it again and she didn’t want to rock the boat (why buy the milk when you can have the cow for free?) she and I have had to agree to disagree or we could not continue to be friends, I don’t think its ok and she knows that and all I can do is pray for her and lead by example but it really bothers me and I feel bad for her kids, how unfair to them. Living together is just too easy, it lacks commitment, if you just live together its so much easier to walk away but when you are married and committed you can’t just walk away, you have got to stick with it and work at it and even when its to hard you don’t know if you can go another day, you just try some more, marriage is about total commitment, living together is just that, living together, sex with no commitment, no strings attached, its very sad.
 
I would just ask that all of you PLEASE quit confusing your personal beliefs with Church teachings. I’ve talked with several Priests and they say that I am correct…all of you have confused your own opinions with official Church doctrine. However, they also say that you guys are correct on the part about “if I play with fire I’m going to get burned”…But some people were born with something called “Will Power”…I was one of those people, my will power is like adamantium, no earthly force can break it…and if God so chooses to break it, then His will be done, not mine.

By the way, I stated early on in this thread that I am currently in the RCIA process…sooooooo, I cannot be wed to my Catholic girlfriend until after I am confirmed anyway…and if I’m not mistaken, it will be several months before I receive First Communion and Confirmation.
 
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cybrscream:
I would just ask that all of you PLEASE quit confusing your personal beliefs with Church teachings. I’ve talked with several Priests and they say that I am correct…all of you have confused your own opinions with official Church doctrine.
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Hmm. It seems like you’re the one who’s confused. You asked:
Why is it considered immoral for Catholics to live together out of wed-lock?
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and we told you. You just don’t seem to like the answers we’ve given. They aren’t all just our personal opinions, by the way; many of them are backed up by priests and other Catholic sources. For instance, the popular marriage preparation handbook, “Should We Marry?” by Fr. Joseph Champlin, deals with this exact issue at length, using much of the same reasoning you’ve seen here. You might want to get hold of a copy, if you’re sincerely interested in finding the answers to your question (rather than just berating us over and over, in bold type). 😉

It’s true that the Church hasn’t made some official statement like: “Thou shalt not live together, even if thou dost not intend to fornicate.” Neither has she said, “Thou shalt not take off thy fiancee’s clothes, even if thou dost not intend to ogle her.” Or, “Thou shalt not walk through a porn shop, even if thou dost not intend to buy anything.” Still, I think we can agree that those examples are against the spirit of the law of chastity. :rolleyes:

Of course, I’m speaking in general terms. If you were helping remove your fiancee’s clothes because she’d spilled corrosive chemicals on herself – or even if you were a repairman called in to fix the phone lines in a porn shop – then you might have sufficient justification for exposing yourself to such near occasions of sin. Any justification for living together before marriage would have to be equally compelling. Maybe, in the view of the priests you mention, you have such a justification. Even if you do, it still doesn’t negate the following statement:

Living together before marriage - even with the intention of remaining chaste - is a dangerous thing to do.

Regarding both of you living with one person’s parents: I don’t really regard this as “living together” in the above sense. It’s more a case of you living with her family (or vice versa, as the case may be). I still think it’s better avoided, for all the same reasons. At the same time, it doesn’t seem as dangerous as sharing a place together, since you have built-in chaperones, so to speak.

If you choose to reply, I’d appreciate hearing why you disagree with the reasons against cohabitation that I gave earlier. If not, it seems like I’ve done a whole lot of typing (and sharing of personal details) to no end, except to get yelled at.

God bless,
Mrs. R.
 
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cybrscream:
However, they also say that you guys are correct on the part about “if I play with fire I’m going to get burned”…But some people were born with something called “Will Power”…I was one of those people, my will power is like adamantium, no earthly force can break it…and if God so chooses to break it, then His will be done, not mine.
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Sorry, I missed this part on my first reading.

So, you’re willing to discard the advice of priests and other concerned Christians, take unnecessary risks, and put all your trust in your own strength. And then, if you fail, you’re going to blame God. Because after all, you couldn’t be responsible, could you? Nope, you’re Superman – concupiscence, weakness, and Original Sin don’t apply to you…so it must be God’s fault.

This sounds closer to Nietszche than Catholicism. :eek:

I hope you’ll make a mighty effort to cultivate the virtue of humility before you get married. If not, you’ll have some rough lessons afterward. 😦
 
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cybrscream:
I’m sure this has been asked before, …
I do see where chastity can be an issue, so I’m interested in what other issues the Church has against this subject.
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If any of you read my question, and my posts following it, you’d understand that this was all about what the Church’s teachings were on the issue, and not anybody elses.

As for the last reply about “blaming God for my faults”…You’ve really got to re-evaluate your own intentions. When I die and go to Heaven, I’ll be sure to tell Jesus that when he asked the cup to pass from Him, but only if the Father willed it, that he was setting a bad example…And that it’s wrong to justify what happens to you or anyone else by saying that God wills it. God wills all, if you don’t know that then why are you a member of the Church???

I mean come on, I’d prefer posts from people who did get their G.E.D.

I’m through posting on this thread from here on out, because you guys are all obviously older people who confuse your family life, or the way you were raised, with the true teachings of the Church. It seems that many of you are those Catholics that the Church fear…the ones who try to press their thoughts onto others in a forceful, un-God-like manner, selfishly, and unlovingly.

Again, don’t waste your’s or anybody else’s time writing anything other than factual information regarding the subject at hand.

And I don’t necessarily care what some wedding book says, regardless if it were written by a Catholic or not, especially if it teaches things that are assumed, and not 100% Church doctrine.
 
Hi Cyberscream,

I do understand your frustration with the posts here. You asked questions and you got many opinions and people proclaiming the so-called truth of Catholicism, warnings and fingerwagging. There is quite a bit of intolerance in these forums, as you have so recently seen. There is quite a lot of grandstanding and proclaiming and criticising. Just remember that their views are their views, even when they say these are the views of Catholicism, even when they are quoting the Catechism!

If I were you, I would ask your priest about these things, and if you don’t feel comfortable asking him then ask a priest at another parish. Let him know your concerns. Many of the priests I know are young themselves and understand your sorts of questions way better than many of the posters on this forum. Dominican priests are really good at answering your kinds of questions, Cyberscream.

Also, one time I became very upset with another Catholic forum and brought it to my priest in Confession. He actually advised me to stay away from the forums, as there are so many wrong answers given on them. He instructed me to take the postings with a grain of salt and to never believe that they are the definitive views of our Church herself.

I hope this helps a little. God bless, hon!
 
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