Living together out of marriage

  • Thread starter Thread starter cybrscream
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Forgiven:
Hi Cyberscream,

I do understand your frustration with the posts here. You asked questions and you got many opinions and people proclaiming the so-called truth of Catholicism, warnings and fingerwagging. There is quite a bit of intolerance in these forums, as you have so recently seen. There is quite a lot of grandstanding and proclaiming and criticising. Just remember that their views are their views, even when they say these are the views of Catholicism, even when they are quoting the Catechism!

If I were you, I would ask your priest about these things, and if you don’t feel comfortable asking him then ask a priest at another parish. Let him know your concerns. Many of the priests I know are young themselves and understand your sorts of questions way better than many of the posters on this forum. Dominican priests are really good at answering your kinds of questions, Cyberscream.

Also, one time I became very upset with another Catholic forum and brought it to my priest in Confession. He actually advised me to stay away from the forums, as there are so many wrong answers given on them. He instructed me to take the postings with a grain of salt and to never believe that they are the definitive views of our Church herself.

I hope this helps a little. God bless, hon!
Thank you for your “grandstanding and proclaiming and criticising” in killing this thread. If we had no opinions, then there would be nothing to talk about. I agree with you, don’t just believe it because someon said it on the internet.

If you want an answer you can speak to a priest, but if you want to talk about it this is the place. I believe we gave a lot of good practical opinions in this thread about it is frustrating in general to put yourself in a marital like living condition and expect not to be chaste.

I teach pre-cana, but I’m not a priest. All my husband and I do is talk about “our” marriage and what works for us, up at a podium in the school hall. We are very clear not to tell couple to have “our” marriage, but we definitely talk, discuss, and even debate about the practical points on how it works.
 
Cyber,

You asked, “Why is it considered immoral for Catholics to live together out of wed-lock?”

The reasons given were, chastity, scandal, and near occasion of sin. All of these are specifically mentioned in the Catechism. You don’t want to hear about chastity. You might think near occasion of sin is close to chastity (but it is not as explained below). So we’re left with scandal.

If you know something is wrong (and the Church teaches that it is wrong), yet you choose to do it anyways, then it is possible that this could be a mortal sin. EDIT: I would say that this is a grave matter and as such, choosing to cohabitate when you know full well why it is wrong (scandal, since you say you have no problem with chastity) would be a mortal sin. Living in mortal sin, you would not be able to receive the Eucharist. This is something that you should consider very very very very carefully. /EDIT

You also say that you have superhuman willpower. This is from the Catechism: 2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so (By choosing to cohabitate, you are not avoiding temptation, but you are exposing yourself to it). **2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life. **

You mentioned confession in one of your posts. For confession to be valid, you must feel repentant for your sins. But if you feel justified in cohabitation, then how can you feel repentant? You can’t just decide now that you’ll go through with cohabitation and then when you go to confession, that you will feel repentant.

As regards to the reports that you’ve searched out, personally, I wouldn’t rely on any of them. Everyone is different and everyone’s circumstances are different. These types of studies are not scientific. Nothing is proved. However, if you are willing to believe the reports that favor your opinion, how come you are unwilling to care about what a wedding book written by a Catholic?

If I may ask, (you don’t have to answer, but i think you should relfect on the issues)…why do you want to cohabitate? What do you hope to gain from it? Do you think it is worth it to go against Church teaching? What is your current living situation now and how come you feel the need to cohabitate? What is the hurry? You both are young…(i am 22 myself) and i know that I am very much a different person than i was at 20. I wish you the best.
 
Wow, am I glad THAT is over. Just reading through the posts was enough to bring out my Advil. It is, however, due to this frustration that I am compelled to give it a voice (even though I am well aware that cyberspace is done with the conversation).

A few things:

It seems to me Cyberspace wanted proof either from scripture and/or church documents (magisterium) why living together (under the same roof in a platonic fashion ) with his girlfriend is morally wrong. As he rightly points out Adultery is not an issue here, so I can understand his frustration with some of the responses.

At the same time, I share the frustration (which is no doubt felt by other posters) with Cyberspace’s evasive tactics. To be fair, this is how his question should have been posed:

“Without bringing up 1) Witness/Scandal 2) Presumption (i.e. claiming to know the outcome of any given situation; in this case that he will be able to avoid sin) 3) Occasion of sin 4) that the Magisterium teaches it 5) its historical roots (i.e. Tradition) 6) Scripture: “Do not tempt the Lord your God” 7) the Catechism (which clearly teaches on all of the above) and 8) the general consensus of the community of believers I want someone to tell me why, as a soon-to-be Catholic, I should hold to the teaching that sex before marriage is a no no? Any intelligent answers out there? I didn’t think so.”

I’m certain that if the question were posed this way we all would have saved ourselves alot of headaches. But, on the bright side of things, I now have something to offer up to the Lord!
 
Going way back to the beginning…your question…

“Why is it considered immoral for Catholics to live together out of wed-lock?”

For me in the same situation…the above question would give away the fact that I knew somehting was fishy about it all…when I am for sure about something I don’t ask a lot of questions about it…informed conscience and all…the question itself would surrender my innocence.

ybiC
larry j
 
Good Morning Church

Good Morning Cybrscream,

Cybrscream, I have reread your opening post and all of the posts after that.

First let me tell you about myself and see if you think I might have useful advise for you.
I will be married 50 years next February and was a virgin when I married. I am also a Catholic convert so we have that in common. I have raised two sons and now have 4 grandchildren, two are teens. I spent almost 30 years as a Spiritual counselor, much of this was working with families and a lot with teens and young adults.

Over the years that I was in this ministry, I had many close friends who were in this same ministry, Priests, psychologists and psychiatrists. We decided to keep stats on long term benefits or not of folks who decided to live together outside of marriage. This was in Southern California and included many many numbers. Overwhelmingly, those folks who lived together prior to marriage had the highest divorce rate. Overwhelmingly!
In this day of political correctness and a society that does not deal with right and wrong, these type of stats are not often published for folks like you to see and evaluate. As you see, I am not quoting my opinion but what was seen and recorded.

I read the reason you gave for wanting to live together, remaining sexually chaste prior to marriage but I did not quite understand your reasoning.

I thought you said it was for financial reasons but you also said you are not employed. Does that mean you and your girl friend are living with your parents? If not, are you living somewhere else, rent free? How do you support yourself?

If you are a former Protestant, I would think you would have been advised by the Protestant ministers not to live together. Did you think the Catholic Church would advise you otherwise?
Did I understand you to say 3 priests said it was ok for you and your girlfriend to live together? Would you also elaborate on that?

I would like to answer your question but I need more information from you to give you an answer and it may not be what you want to hear.
 
St. Augustine is the most quoted and reckoned voice in the Cathecism and for the Church in general. Upon entering into the Church from the heresy of manicheanism he sent his co-habitress away. He took her as a live-in at 17 and was with her until he was 34 and tey hd a child together. He struggled greatly against his passions. He was in the fourth century, following Church teaching. In the Bible they don’t say “living together” just like the word Trinity or abortion etc aren’t mentioned. But it’s well known that the covenant sign with Adam and Eve is marriage, as with Noah it’s Family, etc. Moses allowed divorce because men had hardened their hearts but Jesus changed all that when he says 'For a man to even look at a woman lustfully he commits adultery in his heart. God knows that all our tue feelings about good and bad reside in the citadel of our hearts. Now this may not speak of living together but what does it say about marriage? If marriage is a sacred union from God then what is living together. St. Paul calls it fornication as well as Jesus. I was married in the Catholic church and my wife left me for another($$$$$) and then I re-married in the Episc church. I’ve come back to the one, true Church that teaches infallably in matters of faith and morals and gues what? My annulment is almost here and for the last few months until our marriage becomes valid
my wife and I are livng in complete continence (no sex, brother --sister relationship) It took me talking to three different priests before I found one who was willing to choke out the truth about fornication and living together.
Remember we didn’t even have a Bible till around 430AD. St. Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the traditions that have been handed down whether in letter or orally.

Peace and Love:love: :hmmm:
 
What is everyone’s opinion on a guy and a girl living together in the same house, yet in a non-romantic platonic relationship? That is to say, two friends of the opposite sex who are roommates and “best friends”, yet who aren’t interested in each other sexually, and who in fact date other people.

I myself still think that this is wrong, yet I have a female friend who is living with a male friend who, of course, disagrees with me. She’s a new Catholic, btw, and her male roommate isn’t Catholic. But she claims he’s just a friend, and that there’s nothing romantic between them. What’s the best way to let her know that this is wrong, beyond simply stating my opinion? I’d love some good Church teachings to back me up here.
 
Good Morning Church

Both of my adult sons (now 38&48) have had roomates. Both have had females who are friends as roomates. It has worked out perfectly. Both remained good friends (right up to the present), both dated other folks.

In one case, my oldest son and one of his friends have commented on the fact that they got along so well as roomates it was too bad there was no chemistry between them. They were simply just friends. My son is now very happily married with four children and the former roomate is now a close family friend.

I think it is perfectly fine. I can’t say I did the first time this happened but at almost 68 years old, I have seen too many successes to worry about it.
 
i’m getting married in october.my fiance and i have a three bedroom apartment, my stuff (except for the bed and computer) is moved in. i’m over there after work everyday - but i go home to my parents home everynight. is it old fashioned? yes. am i old fashioned, yes. the divore rates among couples who live together before marriage is much higher than those that don’t, and quite frankly i want all the chips stacked in my favor when we tie the knot. plus, even with all the plans, all the commitments and such, the nuts and bolts of it is that we are still DATING until the wedding. i want to be able to tell my little girls one day “mom and dad waited till the were married to move in together” - i want to set an example for my nieces and nephews, i want to show my finace that the marriage actually means more to me than simply signing a paper and continuing on with the same situation as before we got married.
i think the marriage institution get broken down in importance when couples live together before marriage. for us, it IS a big deal to get married.
just my 2¢
 
can I ask how long your engagement will be. I don’t think I could of held off, if my engagment was any longer then what it was.
 
got engaged last october… it was a year engagement.
we had dated for 4 years prior.
 
The most comprehensive piece on the church’s position on living together before marriage I have read is presented in the NCCB’s statement titled *Marriage Preparation and Cohabiting Couples *issued in 1999.

The paper thoroughly discusses the reasons people choose to live togther, the demographics of cohabitating couples, the detrimental effects of cohabitation on an eventual marriage, and the approach those in marrige preparation ministery should take with these couples, since about 40% of the couples married in the Church are already living together.

The document can be found at:
nccbusccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabiting.htm

The information contained in the document is well researched and there are several pages of citations at the end.

According to the bishops the factors that put cohabitors who marry at greater risk for divorce are:

Predisposing attitudes and characteristics they take into the marriage, based on the experiences from the cohabitation itself create problem patterns and behaviors.

Generally, “cohabitors are less committed to the institution of marriage and more accepting of divorce.”

Sexual unfaithfullness is more likely to occur in a marriage where the couples cohabitated.

Cohabitors tend to hold individualism as a more important value than do non-cohabitors. Individualism is a necessary value for everyone, but the marriage itself should take priorty. Apparently those who cohabit are more likely to give priorty to individualism than to marital unity.

Cohabitating couples often marry under pressure from friends and family.

Cohabitors often have an “inappropriately high expectation of marriage”. When problems arise they often blsme it on the institution of marriage.

Cohabitors often exterience more conflect over money. Druing the cohabitation money often viewed as his or hers. After the mariage it may be difficult to develope the concept of “our” money.

domestic violence is more common to cohabitating couples. "Cohabating partners can have a lesser felt need to protect the relationship while they are cohabitating because they do not see it as permanent.

( I find this point to be most interesting)
“Cohabitors who marry are less effective at conflict resolution than those who did not cohabit. Either fear of upsetting an uncommitted relationship, or the ack of need to protect a tempory relationship can be factors that lead cohabitating couples into poor patterns of conflict resolution which they then carry into the marriage.”

Committment is the biggest factor. A couple is not fully committed unless they are married, no matter how much love they share. After the wedding they may tend to maintain the attitude that dicorce is an option, just as sipmply packing up and leaving was an option before the wedding.

Of course there are exceptions to all of these points, but generally speaking the report makes sense. And, it is based upon very sound research.

Pax et Bonum!
 
my bro and his gf did this, were expecting twins now, i just pray they will stay together
 
Please don’t get mad at me. I’ll try to add something to this. I can see you are a Protestant. I tried that for a while many years ago. I got confused by all of the scripture quoting and hunting and pecking all over the Bible trying to figure everything out. For some reason you have to have something very specific about this particular subject from the Bible before you will believe it is a sin to co-habitate. How about a little common sense? You know from what I’ve heard, in the olden days before contraception, it was pretty near impossible to get alone with a girl unchaperoned before you were married. Right? In the old days of the Bible, marraiges were arranged. No respectible family would let there daughter go off alone with a man. She could get pregnant and who would raise the baby? Maybe that’s why the Bible doesn’t mention living-together. I don’t think it happened. I think there were married women, virgin daughters & prostitutes. I think that is about it. The Bible does mention fornication & from what I remember, fornication means premarital sex. Right? And fornication is spoken of as a sin. If you want your girlfriend to feel like a prostitute, go ahead & live with her. Because even if she doesn’t feel like this right away, from what I’ve read she probably will hold this against you in the future. Especially if people are uncomfortable with your example, just like I was uncomfortable with my neighbors who were living together & my brothers who were living with their girlfriends. Although I never said anything to my sister-in-law, after they were married she had to give me a long explanation as to why she had to live with my brother - her roomates moved, my mother wanted my sister to have my brothers old apt, etc. I could tell she was really very ashamed of the fact that they had lived together & she isn’t religious. Why not live honorably. Why do you need so much money to get married. I can’t stand it when I hear people who are living together say that they are saving money to get married. I want to say - You are missing the point! Marraige is not about having a big party to show off to people. It is about sacrifice, committment, true love, goodness… It is an honorable estate! Live honorably! I don’t get it when people say don’t judge. I am an adult & have to make judgements every day. If it looks like sin, smells like sin, feels like sin, it is sin! God Bless you. Every day is a new day. Make good choices today.
 
I would just want to make a comment. Sorry, I cannot give an answer for I am not an expert in the CCC nor the Bible.

I do however, have something from the East. It’s called Honor. If I were to be in a situation where I am to live with a woman (whether gf or just a friend), I would use my honor not to dis-honor her. It would be against my honor to disrespect her. And by disrespect I mean to be unchaste and all that. With my honor I would treat her with respect and protect her. I hope you get the idea.

God knows the intentions of our heart. However, the general public can tend to judge. This is not the point right now. Sure, temptation comes along but I also value my honor (coupled with lots of prayer).I doubt I will touch her. May God strike me with lightning if I do. 😃
But I do prefer not to live together as much as possible. And that’s just me. 🙂
 
First answer: No, it’s not a sin to live chastely w/ someone of the opposite sex b/f marriage. Very near occasion of sin, yes, you will be playing w/ fire, especially if you do things like snuggle and kiss (“make out”), then expect to retire to your own rooms for the night. But no, living together in itself is not a sin.

Second answer: The reason the Bible doesn’t mention living together is wrong is b/c until recently (last couple of generations), children lived w/ their parents until they married. In biblical times, they usually continued to live w/ one set of parents after they married. We’re talking nomadic, agricultural, herding people, after all. They didn’t live in apartments and work in big cities. It’s not mentioned b/c it never happened. Lots of things aren’t specifically in the Bible, b/c it was written (the ot), over 5000 years ago. Pornography’s not in there either, do you have problems w/ why the Church says that’s wrong?

So, to recap: Fornication, a sin; chaste cohabiting, not a sin, but very dangerous, as research has shown.
 
I believe the original poster of this thread no longer reads this. But please forgive me…

Perhaps the sin here is not against chastity or what have you. Could it be that the sin here is pride?

Again, forgive me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top