"logic" in Islam (sorry have to vent about this)

[BelFarfalla]

During a talk on the coherence of Faith and Reason he quoted an 11th (?) century Byzantine Emperor who said this:

“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

And one should remember that at the time the Byzantine Emperor said this there were Muslim armies attacking his empire for the umpteeth millionth time… devistating his people. The emperor had very good reason to be very upset.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I had asked him before and that’s the answer he gave me as well. What gets me is how when God changes some absolute law in their religion it’s okay because “he had a plan” whereas with any other religion they will immediately claim any change must = “corruption”. They have so many double-standards I could probably write a book.

The issue really is that to justify itself, Islam has to discredit and distory Judeism and Christianity. The Bible OT/NT can be used to disprove Islam. Jesus even predicted false prophets and gave warning signs that point to Muhammad. So Islam must destory the bible and all that is related to it.

Note that the Qu’ran goes all the way to Adam & Eve and claims every bit of bible history as really being part of Isalm. Did you now that Adam & Even, Abreham, King David, etc etc were really Muslims and not Jew? I’ve actually had Muslim argue this with me.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi
When did pope ask for reasonable discussion with Islam?
I never read it, perhaps I missed.
Thank

The problem I feel with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.

The way you are defining this…the qur’an does not give the answer to every rational question ether… it does not cover everything. That is why the Hadith and sunna are requried. and ever with that scholars had to derive and write Shari’ah. And evene with that, all of the schools of thought do not agree what Shari’ah really should be.

So if you say that the Bible is wrong because it was not have ever answer, then so too is the Qur’an wrong by the same measure.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Not to get this thread off-topic, but I have a question about the pope’s speech that took place about a year ago I guess that angered the Moslem World. Okay what exactly did he say? I used to know, but I forgot. He had to have made a distingtion between justified violence and not justified violence in the name of religion. I mean no pope has ever condemed the Crusades, maybe the wrongs, but not the Crusades themselves.

God speed.

Vigis

I believe that he was talking about violence in the name of religion for the purpose of spreading the religion… that being the only purpose of the war… Muslims call it jihad (the lessor and violent jihad). It is required in Islam that every muslim fight violent jihad for the sole purpose of spreading islam… this is what was going on when the Byzantime Empire was attacked… Muhammad began it and it has never ended.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
Just to make my perception clear, I make a little change :
Previous:if Bible is a living book that answers every **rational **question.
New:if Bible is a living book that answers every reasonable question.

I used the word rational meaning, based on reason. Is that OK now.
or if I change the sentence like this:
if Bible is a living book that answers every logical question.
Thanks for your responses.

 

[eleonardo]

Hi
Just to make my perception clear, I make a little change :
Previous:if Bible is a living book that answers every **rational **question.
New:if Bible is a living book that answers every reasonable question.

I used the word rational meaning, based on reason. Is that OK now.
or if I change the sentence like this:
if Bible is a living book that answers every logical question.
Thanks for your responses.

What is a reasonable question, or a logical one for that matter?
And what is a ‘living’ book?
Perhaps if you define your meaning of these we can provide you with an even more specific answer.
Note: I think a lot has been answered in the above posts.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I think the confusion lies with the different meanings Christians and Muslims attach to the word Word. To Islam the Qur’an is the Word of God. To Christians the Word of God is principly Christ. In this sense Islam is much closer to Protestantism than it is to Christianity.

CDL

 

[MugenOne]

From what I heard is that pork meat doesn’t sit well in the desert heat. As a result, spoilage can harbor deathly diseases. Plus, pig have parasites that aren’t cool to be in the human body. Since there was no refrigerator in the ancient time, eating pork could be very detrimental to one’s health. Also cooking in the ancient time was primary BBQ. You can’t BBQ meat thoroughly especially if you are in the desert. It is logical to prohibit eating of pork.

I’ve heard a couple of different reasons of why pork was prohibited.

Pigs need losts of water. They need to wallow in water/mud to keep cool. When you live in the desert and have very little water, you really don’t want a pig wasting what little you have or contaminating your water source.

Another reason I heard has to do with the idea that through the OT God is leading the Jews from being pagans to being monotheists. One of the major problems is that the Jewish people were surrounded by pagans and had pagan traditions. To many of the prohibitions in the OT laws were to break the old pagan ways.

Not cutting hair at the temples and not trimming beards on the sides was to distinguish the Jews from the worshipers of Ra (and other pagan gods) who cut their hair/beard that way. It was a statement of allegiance with that god. Look at ancient Egyptian art… You will see that the men often had their beards/hair cut that way…

Pigs were the favorite and most profitable (meaning they got greater rewards) sacrifices to many pagan gods. Remember that after a sacrifice, everyone feasted on the roast beast. So to break the traditions of pagan forms of sacrifice and worship, God made it illegal to eat pork.

 

[BelFarfalla]

From what I heard is that pork meat doesn’t sit well in the desert heat. As a result, spoilage can harbor deathly diseases. Plus, pig have parasites that aren’t cool to be in the human body. Since there was no refrigerator in the ancient time, eating pork could be very detrimental to one’s health. Also cooking in the ancient time was primary BBQ. You can’t BBQ meat thoroughly especially if you are in the desert. It is logical to prohibit eating of pork.

This is also a very good and probable reason for the prohibition.

However, the point that BBQ meat cannot be thoroughly cooked is incorrect. I do it all the time. There is also the old method of pit BBQ’ing can thoroughly BBQ an enter pig at one time… its a slow cook method that takes hours.

 

[Valke2]

Each religion has its own internal logic. Even disputes within each religion have their own internal logic.

In Judaism, for example, there are (at least) two views on the role that affliction/suffering plays. One view is that it is punishment for sins and a way to prepare one for the world to come (a kind of washing away of sin) and the other view is that it is a blessing that gives one the opportunity to strengthen their bond with God.

Both support their conclusions with logic.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled debate

 

[paarsurrey]

What is a reasonable question, or a logical one for that matter?
And what is a ‘living’ book?
Perhaps if you define your meaning of these we can provide you with an even more specific answer.
Note: I think a lot has been answered in the above posts.

Hi
One of my Catholic friends says that NTBible has no claim for having answer to every rational question. The words rational/reasonable or logical being used almost as synonyms. I gather from the above discussion with my Catholic friends that NTBible has no answer to human questions that are rational/reasonable/logical, please correct me If I have understood wrong. I can’t believe that this could be the stand of the Cathlic faith at large, as that would mean that NTBible-CatholicVersion is not rational/reasonable/logical so it cannot answer such human question/important issues that we face in the ordinarly life.I again say I can’t believe that .
Jesus was a rational/reasonable/logical son of a man/woman, if he had left anything written by himself or anything authenticated by him that must have been rational/reasonable/logical under all circumstances.!!!
I love Jesus and his mother Mary.
Thank you.

 

[Wolseley]

My friend who is Muslim is at my house today and not surprisingly he starts making backhanded comments about “kafir” beliefs once his conversation with my roommate drifts toward them in some way. (they were talking about pork, don’t ask)

My roommate, who should know better than to talk to brick walls anyway, brings up how in the OT God probably told them not to eat pork for the health reasons/people not knowing how to cook it thoroughly enough… etc. Of course this is most likely true but my Muslim friend doesn’t see it that way.

And now (this is SOOO clever ) my Muslim friend makes the comment “so the law changes as science progresses then?” Obviously he’s implying how Christian law has been “corrupted” from the original and blablabla, not even taking into account how this isn’t a moral issue to begin with but hey what can you expect? I’m thinking why the h*** do people in glass houses always insist on throwing the first stone…? I almost wanted to say “no our laws don’t ‘change’ with science, they change according to the arbitrary whims of our so-called ‘prophet’ of course!” … Like Muslims didn’t change enough of their laws over time themselves, but for them it’s okay I guess… the facing of Jerusalem during prayer before Mecca, how at first alcohol was allowed and then it was gradually banned… I could go ON and ON… I mean what gives??

Sorry had to get that out of my system

Sounds like its time to get a new friend. Your Muslim pal evidently needs what my old grandmama used to call “a good dose of lettin’ alone”.

If he asks why you’ve broken off relations, simply shrug and say, You don’t want to be polluted by hanging out with a “kaffir”, do you?"

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Hi
One of my Catholic friends says that NTBible has no claim for having answer to every rational question. The words rational/reasonable or logical being used almost as synonyms. I gather from the above discussion with my Catholic friends that NTBible has no answer to human questions that are rational/reasonable/logical, please correct me If I have understood wrong. I can’t believe that this could be the stand of the Cathlic faith at large, as that would mean that NTBible-CatholicVersion is not rational/reasonable/logical so it cannot answer such human question/important issues that we face in the ordinarly life.I again say I can’t believe that .
Jesus was a rational/reasonable/logical son of a man/woman, if he had left anything written by himself or anything authenticated by him that must have been rational/reasonable/logical under all circumstances.!!!
I love Jesus and his mother Mary.
Thank you.

Jesus Christ is the very reason of God. What is written about Him is reasonable, but not everything that can be known is written. There isn’t enough ink or enough pens. That is why God became man and dwells among us. He will never leave us or forsake us. He has return to mankind the ability to reason because He has returned mankind to it’s wholeness. Through baptism we reclaim that and live the life of the New Man. If we reject Him again as the one true God man we fall back into sin and are lost to face only death.

Without Him the words about Him cannot be fully discerned. With Him they can be fully discerned. When the Holy Spirit created and filled His Body we became enlightened. Outside the Church there is only darkness, ignorance, and death. Or as my priest says, “If you get the question of Christ wrong everything is wrong.” So, come to Christ. Be baptized and follow the holy ways of God.

CDL

 

[uforever]

My friend who is Muslim is at my house today and not surprisingly he starts making backhanded comments about “kafir” beliefs once his conversation with my roommate drifts toward them in some way. (they were talking about pork, don’t ask)

My roommate, who should know better than to talk to brick walls anyway, brings up how in the OT God probably told them not to eat pork for the health reasons/people not knowing how to cook it thoroughly enough… etc. Of course this is most likely true but my Muslim friend doesn’t see it that way.

And now (this is SOOO clever ) my Muslim friend makes the comment “so the law changes as science progresses then?” Obviously he’s implying how Christian law has been “corrupted” from the original and blablabla, not even taking into account how this isn’t a moral issue to begin with but hey what can you expect? I’m thinking why the h*** do people in glass houses always insist on throwing the first stone…? I almost wanted to say “no our laws don’t ‘change’ with science, they change according to the arbitrary whims of our so-called ‘prophet’ of course!” … Like Muslims didn’t change enough of their laws over time themselves, but for them it’s okay I guess… the facing of Jerusalem during prayer before Mecca, how at first alcohol was allowed and then it was gradually banned… I could go ON and ON… I mean what gives??

Sorry had to get that out of my system

Islam is VERY Logical and no mysteries involved! (how logical is that?) Anyways it sounds like your “Muslim friend” was not a scholar so if you want to know about this Logic I suggest you go to a local mosque and ask a Imam. And dont worry they dont try to convert everyone they see!

 

[uforever]

Jesus Christ is the very reason of God.

CDL

Show me the original text that says he is God and I will convert TODAY!

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi
Just to make my perception clear, I make a little change :
Previous:if Bible is a living book that answers every **rational **question.
New:if Bible is a living book that answers every reasonable question.

I used the word rational meaning, based on reason. Is that OK now.
or if I change the sentence like this:
if Bible is a living book that answers every logical question.
Thanks for your responses.

I think that you are struggling with words here. I get your point you are using the wrong words…
The bible addresses issues of faith and morality.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi
One of my Catholic friends says that NTBible has no claim for having answer to every rational question. The words rational/reasonable or logical being used almost as synonyms. I gather from the above discussion with my Catholic friends that NTBible has no answer to human questions that are rational/reasonable/logical, please correct me If I have understood wrong.

I am correcting you. You have misunderstood. You said that the bible should answer all rational or reasonable questions. It does not do this any more then the Qur’an does. I have examples, to ask about gravity and a cure for cancer are both rational and reasonable questions. They are not answered by either the Bible nor the Qur’an.
The Bible is a book of faith and morality. It answers all questions of faith and morality. Those are the words you need to use.

I can’t believe that this could be the stand of the Cathlic faith at large, as that would mean that NTBible-CatholicVersion is not rational/reasonable/logical so it cannot answer such human question/important issues that we face in the ordinarly life.I again say I can’t believe that .

Now you are twisting thoughts.
No, to say that the bible does not answer all reasonable/rational questions does not meant that the bible is not rational/reasonable/logical. It would like saying that all four legged animals are not cows, so all cows are not four legged animals. Twisting logic like is is not how logic works.
The Bible is rational/reasonable/logical in all matters of faith and morality. Thus it can answer such humans questions/important issues of faith and morality faced in ordinary human life.
The Bible (nor the Qur’an) are not rational/reasonable/logical in all matters of science. They are not books of science. Why would we expect them to be?

Jesus was a rational/reasonable/logical son of a man/woman, if he had left anything written by himself or anything authenticated by him that must have been rational/reasonable/logical under all circumstances.!!!
I love Jesus and his mother Mary.

Jesus was the rational/reasonable/logical son of a woman and God. Even Islam believes that Jesus was not born of man. He thought in the oral tradition just as Muhammad did. Muhammad left nothing in writing… He was illiterate. The Qur’an was written many years after Muhammad’s death. Why you hold the Bible to a higher level of scrutiny then you do the Qur’an is questionable.
Hope this helps.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Islam is VERY Logical and no mysteries involved! (how logical is that?) Anyways it sounds like your “Muslim friend” was not a scholar so if you want to know about this Logic I suggest you go to a local mosque and ask a Imam. And don’t worry they don’t try to convert everyone they see!

There are no mysteries in Islam?
Muhammad says that an angel visited him? This is a mystery because on one say it and the average person has to make a leap of faith to believe this.
Muhammad rode on the back of some beast, visiting Jerusalem some sort of visit where to travels hundreds if not thousands of miles in one night??? This is surely a mystery that most people cannot believe.

There are tons of mysteries in Islam. It is just the Muslims do not speak of them that way.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Show me the original text that says he is God and I will convert TODAY!

Show me the ORIGINAL TEXT of the Qur’an and I will convert today. It does not exist… the one that exists today was commissioned by the 3rd caliph because there were so many different, variant copies of the Qur’an that it was causing trouble. So he had his people create a Qur’an to his liking. This is the book that people today pretend is the original Qur’an.
The closest thing that exists to an ‘original’ Qur’an are the thousands of pages found in the rafters of a Mosque in Yemen. These show not an ‘original’ Qu’ran but instead a Qur’an that evolved over the first 200 years of Islam. Guess your religious leaders/teachers forgot to tell you about the existence of these didn’t they? I wonder why? Guess because not talking about them protects the lie that there exists an original Qur’an.
We have versions of the scriptures that are older then the Qur’an, older then Islam… from the early years… .they are the Dead Sea Scrolls. They prove that the scriptures have not changed in all that time.
Show me anything from Islam that is over 2000 years old to prove the authenticity of the rewritten Qur’an.

 

[uforever]

There are no mysteries in Islam?
Muhammad says that an angel visited him? This is a mystery because on one say it and the average person has to make a leap of faith to believe this.
Muhammad rode on the back of some beast, visiting Jerusalem some sort of visit where to travels hundreds if not thousands of miles in one night??? This is surely a mystery that most people cannot believe.

There are tons of mysteries in Islam. It is just the Muslims do not speak of them that way.

I suggest you talk with someone in person ( a Imam) as you are mixing things up and apparently confused on the issue. Islam has NO mysteries.

So If you can believe that your “god” can die for you ; why is it such a leap of faith to believe that he can do something as simple as reveal a book. Would you really want a god who would die for you? That seems like a weakness.