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rfournier103
Guest
OFF TOPIC. Are you by any chance a Simpsons fan, BORT???
- Status
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davidv
Guest
How are “implausable”, “oblique and arcane”, “far fetched and fanciful thinking” a rational bases for your position? These seem like highly emotional based judgements that don’t make for a valid and sound basis for your position.
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WmJackP
Guest
The question is a tautology, I am afraid. Afterall, the point you invite me to address is not just the existence of a creator (personal) god, but, also how he would behave under circumstances by which he formed the desire to invest his creation with a morality and then to communicate that desire to his creation. And, indeed I see you have praised one of our fellow posters by coming up with the correct answer–namely, the 10 commandments and a personal appearance by the Son. Very welll done.
However, please allow me, by your same logic,—to demonstrate the true motives for our space program. If the moon were made of green cheese, and, mankind–as you know as well as mice–love green cheese. But, it is inaccessable to mankind by vast distance, then how else could we reach the coveted green cheese?
The answer, of course, is that we could only reach it by the invention of a space program exactly as NASA has. Hence, the true motives for our space program are now exposed.
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empther
Guest
From OP;
- It works.
- It never fails.
- We’ve found none better.
- It fills in all the holes left by other religions.
- God won’t leave us hanging in confusion. This is his Word.
- We don’t have to sell it door to door like Mormons and Seventh Door Adventists.
“Build it and they will come.” - No other religion has a “Universal Catechism” because the members can’t even agree among themselves. 1,150,000,000 Catholics have the “Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church”.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
WmJack
**The answer, of course, is that we could only reach it by the invention of a space program exactly as NASA has. Hence, the true motives for our space program are now exposed. **
The overarching methodology by which we reach the green cheese is that we follow the Commandments of physics. So also is the method by which we reach God, following the Ten Commandments.
The assumption that there is no God who wants us to reach Him is unproven. The fact that we reach for Him in so many different ways all over the world is a good enough hint that there is Something to be reached for who has a good deal more to offer us than your delicious green cheese.
**The answer, of course, is that we could only reach it by the invention of a space program exactly as NASA has. Hence, the true motives for our space program are now exposed. **
The overarching methodology by which we reach the green cheese is that we follow the Commandments of physics. So also is the method by which we reach God, following the Ten Commandments.
The assumption that there is no God who wants us to reach Him is unproven. The fact that we reach for Him in so many different ways all over the world is a good enough hint that there is Something to be reached for who has a good deal more to offer us than your delicious green cheese.
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CaptFun
Guest
The logic follows when one accepts the givens. Even just for the sake of argument.
Let’s try those givens on for size:
The Universe didn’t just happen. It wasn’t a random accident of “nothings somehow creating somethings” whatever the time frame. - an accidental universe however doesn’t keep score or require anything of us … so one might “sin with impunity” - which is some peoples’ idea of the perfect heaven.
The complexity of the universe implies intelligence behind the order. One “could” posit that a 1999 Pontiac Firebird Convertible is also just a “random collection of atoms”.
But it is much better logic, and “science”, to posit that people designed it, gathered the materials, followed the blueprint, assembled the components on an assembly line in the Detroit area, transported it to a dealership in your vicinity, where it was sold to someone and subsequent someones who used it up until the present day. EVEN though neither the “random atoms” guy nor the “made in Detroit by people guy” actually saw the subsequent assembly/creation they believe in.
The “made in Detroit” person may retain tradition and hearsay rather than dismiss it just because its the best answer available. The “random atoms” idea is ludicrous. More so when one breaks it down than when begins with the finished product (which IS a ‘collection of atoms’ - but by no means random). Breaking down the “made in Detroit” answer leads to logical answers even when the questions are hostile (and in case I’ve lost you … this is what Catholicism does, and not just in the “where do we come from” area).
A dismissive argument
Ha! Look there! Rubber! Rubber trees don’t grow in Detroit! My idea is as good as yours! :nope: No. The tires were probably made in Akron, Ohio. Using rubber imported from South America or Asia. The rubber certainly didn’t drip from the tree, roll downhill, bang into rocks until perfect treads and radial plys were formed, and inscribe its outer skin with size and inflation nomenclature and the brand “Firestone” randomly (with all DUE respect!
)
Back to Catholicism
The main claims of Catholicism are stated in the Creed. It not only offers a faith option (faith is not proof) about where all humanity came from … but WHO it came from and where it is going.
(continued …)
Let’s try those givens on for size:
The Universe didn’t just happen. It wasn’t a random accident of “nothings somehow creating somethings” whatever the time frame. - an accidental universe however doesn’t keep score or require anything of us … so one might “sin with impunity” - which is some peoples’ idea of the perfect heaven.
The complexity of the universe implies intelligence behind the order. One “could” posit that a 1999 Pontiac Firebird Convertible is also just a “random collection of atoms”.
But it is much better logic, and “science”, to posit that people designed it, gathered the materials, followed the blueprint, assembled the components on an assembly line in the Detroit area, transported it to a dealership in your vicinity, where it was sold to someone and subsequent someones who used it up until the present day. EVEN though neither the “random atoms” guy nor the “made in Detroit by people guy” actually saw the subsequent assembly/creation they believe in.
The “made in Detroit” person may retain tradition and hearsay rather than dismiss it just because its the best answer available. The “random atoms” idea is ludicrous. More so when one breaks it down than when begins with the finished product (which IS a ‘collection of atoms’ - but by no means random). Breaking down the “made in Detroit” answer leads to logical answers even when the questions are hostile (and in case I’ve lost you … this is what Catholicism does, and not just in the “where do we come from” area).
A dismissive argument
Ha! Look there! Rubber! Rubber trees don’t grow in Detroit! My idea is as good as yours! :nope: No. The tires were probably made in Akron, Ohio. Using rubber imported from South America or Asia. The rubber certainly didn’t drip from the tree, roll downhill, bang into rocks until perfect treads and radial plys were formed, and inscribe its outer skin with size and inflation nomenclature and the brand “Firestone” randomly (with all DUE respect!
)Back to Catholicism
The main claims of Catholicism are stated in the Creed. It not only offers a faith option (faith is not proof) about where all humanity came from … but WHO it came from and where it is going.
(continued …)
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CaptFun
Guest
(continued)
There is a GOD. HE is our Father (not only an intelligent creator, but one who knows and cares about each of us as His Children). Then there is the mystery of Jesus Christ - God and Man (since 1 AD) when He came and changed everything. He was promised, written about in advance of His coming, was born exactly in the prophesied spot, and continued to fulfill thousands of years of prophecy … with the aim of helping all mankind graduate into the eternal life the loving God had planned for His children all along.
Mysteriously Jesus not only chose to come to humanity at a relatively rustic time and place, but came to die rather than to rule. He founded a Church through His death, then left his neophyte disciples to change the world with their good news.
THAT Good News (though well known I’ll recount) was eternal life (DEATH is not the END!). The Bad News was that even the evil will exist eternally … but that HELL is an option too. A bit of carrot and stick? Perhaps “parenting” is the better word.
Alright … so … then (as opposed to Atheism’s surrender to death and our absurd, “ever diminishing unto oblivion” existence) every moment of our lives is important per Catholicism. Dead loved ones are still alive somewhere and through this promised resurrection might be reunited with us again!
THIS was quite a different religion. Everyone was invited to enjoy its promises. It’s leaders LOOKED like they really believed in their own preaching, as they EVEN gave up their lives in martyrdom.
Like they really HAD seen Jesus after He’d been crucified. And had been commissioned by Him.
When they spoke of seeing Jesus (who had worked astounding miracles like healing terminal diseases and raising the dead) resurrected … one believed them. And this was not the kind of religion man invented. God becomes man and dies on a cross so that our sins can be forgiven if we observe our part of a covenant … and death little more than sleeping and waking up?!
Well. The promises are so sublime and the warnings so severe - that on that basis alone, people must pay attention. My life might be meaningful?! MY little life? God HIMSELF wants to be my friend? And (mostly) all I have to do is love and honor Him and love my neighbor - to gain eternal life and health instead of this increasingly joyless and scary march to the grave bit by bit? Dismiss it as an “opiate of the people” if you will - suddenly there were psalms to sing and people to help and a freedom for slaves and a hope for tomorrow … and a dignity to humankind that precluded people being treated like animals. For that matter animals were treated better when considered as created by God (and a reflection of Him too - a la St. Francis).
Sin? Scandal? Jesus said there’d be that too – and woe to those etc. … But the Catholic Church (the REAL Catholic Church) is the Holy Spirit guided vessel that will bring the souls home. And share in the deliverance of souls from an awful alternative.
Mistakes? Sure. Honest ones aren’t even sin. Just a part of learning.
The problem of EVIL? "How could a Just and Merciful God allow such pain, heartbreak, evil people to be in charge and harming people etc. etc.
Here is the aspect of “free will” and its consequences. Temporarily injustices are allowed.
Never does the God the Catholic Church teaches of – approve of evil.
From common fishermen to profound theologians pondering the deepest of philosophical questions. From being a hunted and hated minority hiding in catacombs and risking their lives to worship the Lord … to air conditioned buildings with cushioned kneelers, the Catholic Church has lasted.
There really are “Catholic Answers” (sometimes an honest “we don’t know” is one of them ) for as St. Paul reminds us - NOW we see as through a glass, darkly - THEN we shall see Him face to face.
It is amazing how well this system has held up against intrigues and betrayals from within and implacable enemies without. And the fascinating SCOPE of a faith that traces its roots back to Adam, Eve and Abel -
It has the Papal office as a point of unity that can decide matters with certainty for all, and speak with one clear voice to the non-Christians of the world.
It is also to remain humble in all this rather than proud – in that it is not Church membership itself which saves a soul … but sanctifying grace dwelling within.
The Church is a conduit for those graces via the Sacraments Jesus instituted for that purpose, however; the apostle Peter referred to it as being like “Noah’s Ark.” Being onboard that God ordained vessel is a better idea than trying to build your own boat or try to tread water until the waters recede from the peak of Mt. Ararat (figuratively).
Is this logical? Much of it. It is still faith and not “proof”. But while we are figuring the mysteries of the Church out … its better to do so from the inside of the Ark.
There is a GOD. HE is our Father (not only an intelligent creator, but one who knows and cares about each of us as His Children). Then there is the mystery of Jesus Christ - God and Man (since 1 AD) when He came and changed everything. He was promised, written about in advance of His coming, was born exactly in the prophesied spot, and continued to fulfill thousands of years of prophecy … with the aim of helping all mankind graduate into the eternal life the loving God had planned for His children all along.
Mysteriously Jesus not only chose to come to humanity at a relatively rustic time and place, but came to die rather than to rule. He founded a Church through His death, then left his neophyte disciples to change the world with their good news.
THAT Good News (though well known I’ll recount) was eternal life (DEATH is not the END!). The Bad News was that even the evil will exist eternally … but that HELL is an option too. A bit of carrot and stick? Perhaps “parenting” is the better word.
Alright … so … then (as opposed to Atheism’s surrender to death and our absurd, “ever diminishing unto oblivion” existence) every moment of our lives is important per Catholicism. Dead loved ones are still alive somewhere and through this promised resurrection might be reunited with us again!
THIS was quite a different religion. Everyone was invited to enjoy its promises. It’s leaders LOOKED like they really believed in their own preaching, as they EVEN gave up their lives in martyrdom.
Like they really HAD seen Jesus after He’d been crucified. And had been commissioned by Him.
When they spoke of seeing Jesus (who had worked astounding miracles like healing terminal diseases and raising the dead) resurrected … one believed them. And this was not the kind of religion man invented. God becomes man and dies on a cross so that our sins can be forgiven if we observe our part of a covenant … and death little more than sleeping and waking up?!
Well. The promises are so sublime and the warnings so severe - that on that basis alone, people must pay attention. My life might be meaningful?! MY little life? God HIMSELF wants to be my friend? And (mostly) all I have to do is love and honor Him and love my neighbor - to gain eternal life and health instead of this increasingly joyless and scary march to the grave bit by bit? Dismiss it as an “opiate of the people” if you will - suddenly there were psalms to sing and people to help and a freedom for slaves and a hope for tomorrow … and a dignity to humankind that precluded people being treated like animals. For that matter animals were treated better when considered as created by God (and a reflection of Him too - a la St. Francis).
Sin? Scandal? Jesus said there’d be that too – and woe to those etc. … But the Catholic Church (the REAL Catholic Church) is the Holy Spirit guided vessel that will bring the souls home. And share in the deliverance of souls from an awful alternative.
Mistakes? Sure. Honest ones aren’t even sin. Just a part of learning.
The problem of EVIL? "How could a Just and Merciful God allow such pain, heartbreak, evil people to be in charge and harming people etc. etc.
Here is the aspect of “free will” and its consequences. Temporarily injustices are allowed.
Never does the God the Catholic Church teaches of – approve of evil.
From common fishermen to profound theologians pondering the deepest of philosophical questions. From being a hunted and hated minority hiding in catacombs and risking their lives to worship the Lord … to air conditioned buildings with cushioned kneelers, the Catholic Church has lasted.
There really are “Catholic Answers” (sometimes an honest “we don’t know” is one of them ) for as St. Paul reminds us - NOW we see as through a glass, darkly - THEN we shall see Him face to face.
It is amazing how well this system has held up against intrigues and betrayals from within and implacable enemies without. And the fascinating SCOPE of a faith that traces its roots back to Adam, Eve and Abel -
- through Abraham, David and Jesus -
- and Peter, Paul, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas,
- the establishment of Europe’s University system and the “scientific method” -
- evangelizing other races and peoples to share in our common creators’ intended salvation –
- and keeping alive a treasure trove of sign posts for “living while on this planet” and guiding us to our destiny.
It has the Papal office as a point of unity that can decide matters with certainty for all, and speak with one clear voice to the non-Christians of the world.
It is also to remain humble in all this rather than proud – in that it is not Church membership itself which saves a soul … but sanctifying grace dwelling within.
The Church is a conduit for those graces via the Sacraments Jesus instituted for that purpose, however; the apostle Peter referred to it as being like “Noah’s Ark.” Being onboard that God ordained vessel is a better idea than trying to build your own boat or try to tread water until the waters recede from the peak of Mt. Ararat (figuratively).
Is this logical? Much of it. It is still faith and not “proof”. But while we are figuring the mysteries of the Church out … its better to do so from the inside of the Ark.
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Regina_Love
Guest
SUMMARY:
That is not the way you would do it, therefore it is wrong! Yep, God is wrong, and you, my friend, are right. satan fell into the same error. Here is the problem. You have been gifted with an intelligent mind. You realized a some point, that your mental abilities far surpass those around you. You decided to follow your own thinking in all things, since, in your experience, your ways are superior. My friend that might work most of the time with humans, but not with God. God’s ways are far above mans thinking.
God wanted to include man kind in perfecting the world. By participating in thousands of years of journeying to understanding, and conversion to God’s ways, man kind, as a team, will fully celebrate the win when the final perfection of God’s Kingdom comes!
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carn
Guest
If causal loops exist, there is no need for something to cause the existence of the rule, since causal loops can bring forth things without cause, which would also include the rule allowing them to exist. If causal loops cannot exist, then maybe (if some other conditions are met), this rule would be in need of a cause.
But we do not know for certain that causal loops cannot exist, we just know that in our corner they seem to be absent.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
This is completely wrong. A causal loop can exist, but something must have formed it. In order to have an effect, you must have a cause. A causal loop requires both a cause and an affect top sustain itself. While it’s true that the effect is the subsequent cause, the in no way means that you can ignore the necessity of an initial cause to start the loop. To do so would be illogical.
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CaptFun
Guest
Jesus Christ, His exclusive claims. His extensive claims. His teaching with authority, punctuated by astounding miracles for credentials … coupled with His fulfilling of thousands of years of previous prophecies that he could not seem to have set up (but DID!) such as the place of his birth.
The extensive reach of the faith … from before the creation of the Universe unto “heaven and earth passing away” and the relationship of God to man, man to man, Justice and Mercy, Judgement and Salvation.
“Other philosophers” didn’t claim to come from God’s presence nor an equality with Him.
Nor work inexplicable miracles. Jesus Christ defines everything.
“I am THE way and THE truth and THE life” draws a line in the sand.
THE way, the truth, the life are all singular. His claim is not I am A way, part of the truth some of the time, and the life (whatever that means).
He is mysterious to us but has given clear statements about Himself.
WHEN one considers Christ. It would be alright to deduce “IF He is ‘the truth’ then His teachings will be true and will hold up.”
Argument is not exactly what Jesus proposes. Nor is a proposal (except in the sense that those who accept His proposal of a covenant can be a part of His Bride, the Church).
**It is a teaching with authority and force that is equal to nothing else if true.
**
Accepting the teachings is just part of the story. An ‘A’ in theology and an ‘F’ in Charity does not average into a passing grade. There is a transforming relationship via grace, and being born again, and keeping our parts of the saving covenant (repenting of our sins, receiving the Eucharist, staying in the state of sanctifying grace and out of the state of mortal (deadly) sin).
To fallen people like us … it might not seem logical that
But Catholicism preaches and teaches a God that is LOVE. Logic is good. LOVE superbly better.
God is orderly and so logical as well. Logic is a small part of being all-knowing.
Some things are too big to fit under our microscopes. It doesn’t mean there aren’t truth(s) to them because we can’t examine them as we’d like.
**Given: God is Love. **
Catholic Definition of Love: 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, 5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
Now that’s not ALL love is. Love tends to be creative. Share. Enjoy company. Community. Give and enjoy it. Sacrifice for others. Enter into covenants with others and long for love in return.
With these further givens … a conscious and personal God would want to create if it were within His power. And creating creatures that could consider Him and love Him back is logical from that given.
A sea of “why’s” is natural too if you are NOT God but His not-so-all-knowing child. And that’s what we do. Some of our “why’s” are answered by the Church. In ways we don’t like sometimes. But unpleasant truths remain true … and should be taught as well.
Playing with a cobra can be interesting to a child … but a parent knows the truth of the danger and may warn the child with a force that can make him cry or hurt his feelings.
God gives us blessings and warnings. His purpose (like a good parent) is to teach us so that we can have a better life.
He will even teach philosophers when they give Him a chance. Personally I don’t think the Ostrich was created by accident … but put here as a signpost that says “look at that stupid bird … it thinks because it can’t see danger - the danger isn’t there!” Even children shake their heads over that goony bird.
But on a bad day people adopt that defense mechanism to “see” a more pleasant “truth”.
And it works! Until such time as something bites them in *** ***.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbPvP_MU0iV0mp1HKnLpBeQpFD1rGhZXF84kbaeATJAXsss5fgoQ
The extensive reach of the faith … from before the creation of the Universe unto “heaven and earth passing away” and the relationship of God to man, man to man, Justice and Mercy, Judgement and Salvation.
“Other philosophers” didn’t claim to come from God’s presence nor an equality with Him.
Nor work inexplicable miracles. Jesus Christ defines everything.
“I am THE way and THE truth and THE life” draws a line in the sand.
THE way, the truth, the life are all singular. His claim is not I am A way, part of the truth some of the time, and the life (whatever that means).
He is mysterious to us but has given clear statements about Himself.WHEN one considers Christ. It would be alright to deduce “IF He is ‘the truth’ then His teachings will be true and will hold up.”
Argument is not exactly what Jesus proposes. Nor is a proposal (except in the sense that those who accept His proposal of a covenant can be a part of His Bride, the Church).
**It is a teaching with authority and force that is equal to nothing else if true.
**
Accepting the teachings is just part of the story. An ‘A’ in theology and an ‘F’ in Charity does not average into a passing grade. There is a transforming relationship via grace, and being born again, and keeping our parts of the saving covenant (repenting of our sins, receiving the Eucharist, staying in the state of sanctifying grace and out of the state of mortal (deadly) sin).
To fallen people like us … it might not seem logical that
- an almighty being would become man,
- live in poverty in a first century backwater of a country
- that is supposed to be made up of the best, most faithful to God people on the planet - but rotten at the top.
- And after 33 years of this nonsense to deliberately let the worst of them kill Him
- so that He could pay the debt of Justice keeping them all (and their generations of children to come) from heaven.
But Catholicism preaches and teaches a God that is LOVE. Logic is good. LOVE superbly better.
God is orderly and so logical as well. Logic is a small part of being all-knowing.
Some things are too big to fit under our microscopes. It doesn’t mean there aren’t truth(s) to them because we can’t examine them as we’d like.
**Given: God is Love. **
Catholic Definition of Love: 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, 5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
Now that’s not ALL love is. Love tends to be creative. Share. Enjoy company. Community. Give and enjoy it. Sacrifice for others. Enter into covenants with others and long for love in return.
With these further givens … a conscious and personal God would want to create if it were within His power. And creating creatures that could consider Him and love Him back is logical from that given.
A sea of “why’s” is natural too if you are NOT God but His not-so-all-knowing child. And that’s what we do. Some of our “why’s” are answered by the Church. In ways we don’t like sometimes. But unpleasant truths remain true … and should be taught as well.
Playing with a cobra can be interesting to a child … but a parent knows the truth of the danger and may warn the child with a force that can make him cry or hurt his feelings.
God gives us blessings and warnings. His purpose (like a good parent) is to teach us so that we can have a better life.
He will even teach philosophers when they give Him a chance. Personally I don’t think the Ostrich was created by accident … but put here as a signpost that says “look at that stupid bird … it thinks because it can’t see danger - the danger isn’t there!” Even children shake their heads over that goony bird.
But on a bad day people adopt that defense mechanism to “see” a more pleasant “truth”.
And it works! Until such time as something bites them in *** ***.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbPvP_MU0iV0mp1HKnLpBeQpFD1rGhZXF84kbaeATJAXsss5fgoQ
W
WmJackP
Guest
I have a similar impression. I would never say this pertains to you, but, there are certainly folks who refuse to yield to rational argument. When something seems to make sense, they shut it out because it conflicts with an inviolable paradigm which their belief system conditions them to reject as an assault by demons or other otherwordly sources intent on leading the faithful astray. Hence, a closed mind. Anyone suffering from an inability to question, to explore possibilities or to otherwise give free reign to one’s intellectual faculties should stive to recover and break loose in order to live a full and productive life.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
WmJack
**
Anyone suffering from an inability to question, to explore possibilities or to otherwise give free reign to one’s intellectual faculties should stive to recover and break loose in order to live a full and productive life.**
This full and productive life is experienced by many Christians … even the many (like myself) who have explored the possibilities of atheism and found them to be narrow and suffocating.
**
Anyone suffering from an inability to question, to explore possibilities or to otherwise give free reign to one’s intellectual faculties should stive to recover and break loose in order to live a full and productive life.**
This full and productive life is experienced by many Christians … even the many (like myself) who have explored the possibilities of atheism and found them to be narrow and suffocating.
I
InJesusItrust
Guest
For the practical man, a modified form Pascal’s wager should convince one of the importance of finding the truth. The main point is that there is potential infinite loss or infinite gain.
Once the person is finding the truth, mention Catholic miracle. The three objection are:
Once the person is finding the truth, mention Catholic miracle. The three objection are:
- Witness is a liar
- Witness is crazy
- Witness is decieved
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carn
Guest
Evidence?
One cannot think it to be otherwise? That just shows our mind is hardwired to assume everything must have a cause, which does not show everything must have a cause.
Evidence that existence isnt iollogical?
G
grannymh
Guest
Catholic teachings per se are logical. Granted that means that there may be at least one presupposition of truth depending on which teaching is the starting point.
I
Ismael
Guest
God does NOT “require worship”. God is not a ‘AD&D god’ that needs worshippers.
The worship of God, in the Hebrew-Christian tradition, is a form of relationship with God, not simply some form of tribute as it was in some pagan religions.
–
God is not “placated by prayer” in the Hebrew-Christian tradition. You are confusing perhaps some pagan traditions where they6 made sacrifices to placate some deity.
This is another straw-man.
–
"“reveal” himself or itself in oblique and arcane literature (the bible) "
To bad the Bible is not oblique or ‘arcane’ as you think.
Just because people fail to properly understand it it does not make it so. Many (most?) people (without proper scientific training) have a warped idea of what evolution, the theory of relativity, the big bang and other theories exactly entail, yet no one would claim they are oblique or arcane.
the same as above. This is a double standard you are applying.
Science is also ‘interpreted’ by a ‘favored class’ (people with PhDs).
You would not likely thrust some fanciful scientific theory that contradicts status-quo (like some that go around the internet, like that Einstein was wrong) by someone who merely finished high-school, right?
Actually some cosmological arguments (like Thomist ones) DO lead to a ‘personal God’… they are THEIST arguments, not just ‘proofs that some supernatural entity exists’.
There are several that some people already tackled above.
To not that your question is akin to:
“What is the purely logical argument for modern democracy?”
One fist would have to prove some OTHER truths before proving democracy is the best government.
For example one would have to show all human beings have certain rights (like the right to vote or that thay should all be equally treated by the law).
Today we take democracy for granted because we take certain human rights for granted, but historically it was not always so.
The same with Catholicism. There are several steps, you cannot just ‘prove it by one simple argument’.
The same in science. You can prove some property of a black hole, but such proof rests on higher proofs (i.e. on general relativity and that black holes can even exist) and those rest on even higher proofs (i.e. that the world around us is real and that we can investigate it).
To be blunt: I think modern ‘skeptics’ are often hypocrites. They more often then not apply double standards and pretend absurd reductionism… except when it comes to their theories.
They are so keen in finding ‘faults’ in theist arguments and often fail in noticing the fatal fallacies in their own arguments.
Although I think some skepticism is good, or even necessary, the extremist form taken often by modern skeptics is often unreasonable.
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
You have to study the S.T. Part 1, Ques 3-26. Basically, an Uncaused Cause, which is Pure Actuality and cannot be Changed, is the Prime Cause of all change in the universe, sustains it in being, and directs it to its proper end. Such a being, being also One, Good, True, would naturally take a personal interest in the creatures in the universe he was causing, sustaining, and directing. He would obviously be an Infinitely Intelligent being with a Will to accomplish the things he willed.
Why should he take such " pains " if he was not really interested in us, if he was not a personal God?
Given that such a Being exists, it stands to reason that he would want us to achieve our proper ends. But man is not like the rest of creation. Man has an intellect and a free will and these he uses to direct himself toward his proper end. But the creator, seeing that man was not " doing right " would naturally desire to communicate to man and inform him of the way to achieve his proper end.
Thus Divine Revelation was a logical necessity. This Revelation revealed God’s Plan for man. There were several original covenants in the Old Testament which also spoke of an Annointed One who was to come ( Isaias ) and deliver his people from their sin and be a " light to the gentiles." When the " light " appeared he founded a Church on Peter and the Apostles and told them to go forth under the Infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit and convert the whole world. And this they did immediately on Christ’s Resurrection. They also immediately began to replace their numbers by casting lots and appointing bishops, etc.
The earliest documents of this Church reach back to the second century. But the New Testament is witness to its founding and spread throughout the first century. And by an unbroken line of Doctrine, Holiness, Universality, and Apostolic succession this Church subsides and continues in the Catholic, which alone contains All the means of salvation and the fullness of Truth in Faith and Morals.
The problem with you questions is that they can be successfully answered only in books. They cannot be answered in the " sound bite " size of a post or two. My recommendation to you and the others here is to go Catholic Answers Radio and listen to some of the programs in the Archives. The same for EWTN. Linus2nd
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Linusthe2nd
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And who said the arguments for God’s existence are " causal loops? " That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But perhaps you could demonstrate that they are indeed what you say, instead of merely making the assurtion. Linus2nd
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Linusthe2nd
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