LOL at atheist "logic" (more like nonsense!)

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Malcolm_McLean said:
You wanted both material comfort and the awareness of God’s existence at the same time. It may be that this was an inherently impossible request, and the reason your prayers were not answered.

If God offered health and wealth to all who say a few rosaries, Christianity would swiftly degenerate into a cargo cult. On the other hand, if prayers were never answered, then they would be futile.

A lot of atheists have absent or weak fathers. That doesn’t tell us much about the actual truth or falsehood of the belief, but it does tell us to distrust human conclusions. I am sorry that your childhood was not a happy one. However it is over now, and now we’ve got to live in the present. As the Jews say, the immature man sees smoke rising from his street and says “please God let that not be my house”. The mature man prays “please God give me the strength to deal with this situation”.
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No, I wanted something to stop me from being alone, which I finally did for myself. God neevr helped me with anything, but you’re just going to say that it was god and not I that did that.
As for my parents, they were not bad parents at all, except a tad controlling. They always made sure evrything was okay, always made sure I was never without.
And about my parents not listening, my dad was military and always on TDY, and my mom had to work 10-12 hours a day just so we could live in our house and pay the bills. had they listened to your god’s call for them to be there, we wouldn’t have been able to pay a mortgage.

Oh, and everyone says pelase god let that not be my house. The mature people simply add “If it is, let things be okay, if it not, then please let there be a way I can help.”
 
estesbob said:
Psalm 95:

He holds in his hands the depths of the earth
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Those are pretty pictures, but it is all explained by the science of Geology and Oceanography. To enjoy their beauty I don’t have to believe that god created them, nor is their existence validating proof.
 
Oneiron said:
Those are pretty pictures, but it is all explained by the science of Geology and Oceanography. To enjoy their beauty I don’t have to believe that god created them, nor is their existence validating proof.
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Perhaps Psalm 135:16 is more applicable to you…
 
estesbob said:
Perhaps Psalm 135:16 is more applicable to you…
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Or perhaps I gave up grasping for proof of god a long time ago. Pretty pictures are nice, but they aren’t proof of god, just proof that our concept of beauty in nature is the same.
 
Oneiron said:
No, I wanted something to stop me from being alone, which I finally did for myself. God neevr helped me with anything, but you’re just going to say that it was god and not I that did that.
As for my parents, they were not bad parents at all, except a tad controlling. They always made sure evrything was okay, always made sure I was never without.
And about my parents not listening, my dad was military and always on TDY, and my mom had to work 10-12 hours a day just so we could live in our house and pay the bills. had they listened to your god’s call for them to be there, we wouldn’t have been able to pay a mortgage.

Oh, and everyone says pelase god let that not be my house. The mature people simply add “If it is, let things be okay, if it not, then please let there be a way I can help.”
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Well God gave you life in the first place and He gave you parents that were good enough to care about you.

It sounds like you want it both ways, your parents worked hard so you could have a decent life but you wish they could spend more time with you.

As you say you could have ended up in much worse situation. There is two ways to look at life you can see the cup half full or see it half empty. It seems you are only looking at it half empty.

You could have just as easily been born in Somalia or Darfur or the Sudan. Sometimes you need to see what other folks have to live with to appreciate what you already have. IF God had made your parents rich would you be happy ? Something tells me even then, you would not be satisfied.

There is a saying that someone felt really sorry for themselves because they had no shoes, until he saw someone else who had no feet.

God does not promise anyone happiness in this life, but He does promise us better things in the next.
 
wcknight said:
It sounds like you want it both ways, your parents worked hard so you could have a decent life but you wish they could spend more time with you.
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No, I never said i wanted them, i said I wanted something. A something that didn’t come for years.
You could have just as easily been born in Somalia or Darfur or the Sudan. Sometimes you need to see what other folks have to live with to appreciate what you already have. IF God had made your parents rich would you be happy ? Something tells me even then, you would not be satisfied.
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I know they have it much worse than I ever will, and I see this as further proof against the existence of an omnibenevolent, proactive god. Everything that people are doing to help is exactly that, being done by people.
But they are not me, and I was ignorant of their plight at the time. You must remember I was only 10 years old. Being 10 year old sucks when you’re alone. As a 10 year old, not knowing anything about those who had it worse I prayed to god and he didn’t answer.

Oh, but wait, god must’ve sent me friends later in life, he must’ve put me into the nice school I went to. That’s the next logical line of thinking, searching for something god has done for me. I hate that line of thinking. God has not proved himself to be real, coincidence and good fortune are as pretty pictures when attempting to offer proof of the existence of god. In my opinion.
 
Oneiron said:
Or perhaps I gave up grasping for proof of god a long time ago. Pretty pictures are nice, but they aren’t proof of god, just proof that our concept of beauty in nature is the same.
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Funny…one of the (minor) proofs of God’s existence and an existence beyond material existence is the fact that someone can say “beauty” and everybody knows what it means. Beauty is a transcendent concept, like love. It cannot be measured, or sensed with our limited senses. From a materialist perspective it can not exist, since there’s no way to measure it. No way to determine its “properties”. But wait…they DO know it exists.

Our concepts of beauty and love are but shadows of the real beauty and love that are God. But the fact that we can ALL see the shadows, be we believers or atheists, points to something universal - i.e. God.
 
ricmat said:
Funny…one of the (minor) proofs of God’s existence and an existence beyond material existence is the fact that someone can say “beauty” and everybody knows what it means. Beauty is a transcendent concept, like love. It cannot be measured, or sensed with our limited senses. From a materialist perspective it can not exist, since there’s no way to measure it. No way to determine its “properties”. But wait…they DO know it exists.

Our concepts of beauty and love are but shadows of the real beauty and love that are God. But the fact that we can ALL see the shadows, be we believers or atheists, points to something universal - i.e. God.
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EXACTLY!
 
Oneiron said:
No, I never said i wanted them, i said I wanted something. A something that didn’t come for years.

I know they have it much worse than I ever will, and I see this as further proof against the existence of an omnibenevolent, proactive god. Everything that people are doing to help is exactly that, being done by people.
But they are not me, and I was ignorant of their plight at the time. You must remember I was only 10 years old. Being 10 year old sucks when you’re alone. As a 10 year old, not knowing anything about those who had it worse I prayed to god and he didn’t answer.

Oh, but wait, god must’ve sent me friends later in life, he must’ve put me into the nice school I went to. That’s the next logical line of thinking, searching for something god has done for me. I hate that line of thinking. God has not proved himself to be real, coincidence and good fortune are as pretty pictures when attempting to offer proof of the existence of god. In my opinion.
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With all due respect it seems you are awfully angry at a God you say does not exist…
 
ricmat said:
Funny…one of the (minor) proofs of God’s existence and an existence beyond material existence is the fact that someone can say “beauty” and everybody knows what it means. Beauty is a transcendent concept, like love. It cannot be measured, or sensed with our limited senses. From a materialist perspective it can not exist, since there’s no way to measure it. No way to determine its “properties”. But wait…they DO know it exists.

Our concepts of beauty and love are but shadows of the real beauty and love that are God. But the fact that we can ALL see the shadows, be we believers or atheists, points to something universal - i.e. God.
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beauty is not an absolute, beauty is a relative. the same things that I find beautiful you may find repelling, and the next person may only be slightly attracted to. I do not consider beauty to be proof of god, I see it as proof something is aesthetically pleasing to me.
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estesbob:
With all due respect it seems you are awfully angry at a God you say does not exist…
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No, I’m merely responding to the point of ask and ye shall recieve offered earlier. I believe in something much greater than myself, which I call the Tao, the same thing I believe you call God.
The thing I have lost faith in is an omnibenevolent proactive version of god that is so often preached to me. This force that is around me is in everything, is both the beautiful and the ugly, the good and the evil, the light and the dark. It is yin and yang. I simply believe that we worship the same thing differently.
 
ricmat said:
Funny…one of the (minor) proofs of God’s existence and an existence beyond material existence is the fact that someone can say “beauty” and everybody knows what it means. Beauty is a transcendent concept, like love. It cannot be measured, or sensed with our limited senses. From a materialist perspective it can not exist, since there’s no way to measure it. No way to determine its “properties”. But wait…they DO know it exists.

Our concepts of beauty and love are but shadows of the real beauty and love that are God. But the fact that we can ALL see the shadows, be we believers or atheists, points to something universal - i.e. God.
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Beauty and love are abstract, not supernatural. Not only that, people do have differing ideas of what each entails; I doubt many here would think the more extreme piercing/body-mod aficionados beautiful, but they and others think they are.
 
Oneiron,

I’m going to go into full preaching mode here for a minute, and will probably ramble some. Well, OK, I just looked over the whole post and I rambled a lot 🙂

Everything that exists comes from God. He holds it in existence because he wants it to continue to exist.

Life in the universe comes from God.

Your particular life comes from God (more on that in a minute).

Your eternal soul comes from God, and with it an opportunity to enjoy eternal happiness beyond all conception.

As part of your particular life that comes from God, you have particular talents. I have no idea what they are, but you have them. If you are smart, it’s because God made you smart. If you’re athletic, it’s because God gave you that particular talent. If you are inquisitive, it’s because that’s one of your God given talents.

Nobody gets exactly the same talents, in the same degree.

What most of us do is look at others and see how “blessed” they are. I teach some HS CCD classes, and most of the girls want to be Brittany Spears because she’s pretty, and can sing, and she’s rich and famous. [The guys don’t like to talk much]. My indeed, how blessed Brittany Spears is. What talents. If you’re not Brittany, then you’re nobody.

So have these talents really been a blessing for her? I hope you agree with me that they have not been. So many “blessings” and such unhappiness! Perhaps the things that we consider blessings are really not blessings.

The contrary opinion:

Blessed (lucky) are those who are poor now.
Blessed (lucky) are those who are hungry now.
Blessed (lucky) are you who weep now.

You are lucky if you experience these attributes because they more or less guide you to actually ask God for the things you need, instead of thinking you did it all yourself. By the way - be VERY VERY careful saying things like “I did this thing X all by myself, God had nothing to do with it.” That is a sure recipe for a very humbling experience in the future. Not that God does it out of retribution, but just to make you realize that you’re actually wrong.

Brittany with all her talents of wealth and fame and beauty is not lucky. Wealth and fame and beauty must be a curse, based on the “result.” Her only real luck seems to be the weeping part.

So you grew up lacking a lot of parental involvement. So much the better to help you be a good parent, as God would have you be. You know very well what the wrong answer is, and you don’t have to go there.

[BTW - my own kids got 100% of mom’s time, and 100% of my time outside of work, and they still complain that we are control freaks. So you can’t win I guess.]

One more thing: God is not our butler. Yo…God, I need this right a way. Get to it!

God answers our prayers only when we are praying for something which is good for our salvation, and those prayers are never refused (although it may take a while for things to play out).

Pray to win the lottery…? Consider yourself lucky that that prayer was not answered.

And…God doesn’t want us to turn to him because it somehow benefits him. We have nothing, absolutely nothing that we can give God that God didn’t already give us. Excepting one thing alone. Our love. God giveth, and God taketh away, except he will not take our love by force. And God wants us to love him not because he needs that either, but because it is **good for us **in every conceivable way to love God.

Rambling mode = off.
 
estesbob said:
No we dont. Not even close.
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What happened to the idea that all religions contain some grain of the truth (but yours is best) ? Anyway, you and ricmat are getting off track; simply by admitting to believing in something Oneiron’s out of range here.
 
Mirdath said:
What happened to the idea that all religions contain some grain of the truth (but yours is best) ?
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I beleive the idea is expressed is that as all Christian Faiths contain part of the Truth-that being Christ. What oneiron describes sounds like something out of Star Wars…
 
estesbob said:
I beleive the idea is expressed is that as all Christian Faiths contain part of the Truth-that being Christ. What oneiron describes sounds like something out of Star Wars…
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Check again – I’m pretty sure it’s ‘all faiths’.
 
Mirdath said:
Beauty and love are abstract, not supernatural. Not only that, people do have differing ideas of what each entails; I doubt many here would think the more extreme piercing/body-mod aficionados beautiful, but they and others think they are.
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I didn’t mean supernatural really. Abstract is actually a better word.

But neither love nor beauty have material essence. I can’t say “Hey come look, I have a 20 pounds of beauty in the trunk of my car.”

The fact that we can grasp an abstract concept points to the existence beyond the material world. I think Aquinas went into this a lot (and I’m not an expert on it by any means).

I’d bet that the picture of the mountain lake above would be viewed by everybody as beautiful, so there is some universality. As to body piercing - I have to wonder, do proponents do it to be beautiful or to be different? Or to be the same - within a certain sub-culture?

But regardless, we all agree that beauty and love, abstract concepts with no material reality, exist. That was my main point.
 
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