LOL at atheist "logic" (more like nonsense!)

[Mirdath]

I didn’t mean supernatural really. Abstract is actually a better word.

Yet God is supernatural

But neither love nor beauty have material essence. I can’t say “Hey come look, I have a 20 pounds of beauty in the trunk of my car.”

I could so make a killing off that…

The fact that we can grasp an abstract concept points to the existence beyond the material world. I think Aquinas went into this a lot (and I’m not an expert on it by any means).

All it really does is point to the existence of intangible qualities which are more easily explained as human or social inventions than evidence of divinity. Like how ideals of beauty differ; in many cultures a fat woman is considered far more beautiful than a thin one – pretty good evidence for ‘beauty’ being a social construction instead of a divine one.

I might add here that the only deity in Plato’s heaven is the ‘form of the good’. Plato’s heaven here is not an afterlife, but a repository if you will – of the ideal form of everything with material shape. A chair on earth is a reflection of the Ideal Chair, and so on (incidentally, the Platonists considered art evil because it was an imperfect rendering of an imperfect rendering). And the ‘form of the good’ is only the blueprint from which real good is derived: real good that people can point to.

I’d bet that the picture of the mountain lake above would be viewed by everybody as beautiful, so there is some universality. As to body piercing - I have to wonder, do proponents do it to be beautiful or to be different? Or to be the same - within a certain sub-culture?

There is a subculture but it is based around the pursuit of beauty as they see it.

 

[ricmat]

What happened to the idea that all religions contain some grain of the truth (but yours is best) ? Anyway, you and ricmat are getting off track; simply by admitting to believing in something Oneiron’s out of range here.

I don’t totally understand your quote, but let me chime in on the top part.

With regard to religions that worship God, or even gods in some form or another:

The grain of truth they have in common is that there is something beyond man which (probably) created him and the universe, and which we therefore must show our respect to.

In a sense, if there had been no primitive (can’t think of a better word - sorry) religions prior to Judaism and Christianity, then God’s master plan to bring redemption to the world would have been more difficult. When Abraham, Moses, David, and finally Christ showed up, and evangelization started in earnest, the whole world had some concepts of God, although incomplete and usually incorrect in the details.

But having been exposed to the general idea of gods, the concept of God was easier to comprehend.

I’m pretty sure JP2 (or maybe it was even B16) had something to say about this recently. If I’m way off base, I appreciate clarifications from those who know more

 

[Mirdath]

I wouldnt even know where to check.

Here’s a start: the Dalai Lama spoke at an ecumenical conference in 2003.

 

[Mirdath]

I don’t totally understand your quote, but let me chime in on the top part.

What I meant is that this thread is meant for taking potshots at atheists or people who argue their case, not people who admit to faith in some kind of divinity as Oneiron has.

With regard to religions that worship God, or even gods in some form or another:

The grain of truth they have in common is that there is something beyond man which (probably) created him and the universe, and which we therefore must show our respect to.

Every religion I’ve heard of doesn’t have any ‘probably’ about it

In a sense, if there had been no primitive (can’t think of a better word - sorry) religions prior to Judaism and Christianity, then God’s master plan to bring redemption to the world would have been more difficult. When Abraham, Moses, David, and finally Christ showed up, and evangelization started in earnest, the whole world had some concepts of God, although incomplete and usually incorrect in the details.

But having been exposed to the general idea of gods, the concept of God was easier to comprehend.

Yet, as far as I know, the Church maintains that faith and striving to love and serve God is good in itself, even if that person does not know its version of events. I don’t believe that showing up on someone’s doorstep and saying ‘hey, Jesus died for your sins!’ automatically damns them if they decide not to take your word for it. And really, the primary source is gone – dead in 33 AD, according to the Church; so, in the face of fallible human missionaries, I think it quite reasonable to expect that many virtuous people would not accept those teachings yet still be considered loved and loving children of God, even if they may not consider themselves that.

 

[ricmat]

Yet, as far as I know, the Church maintains that faith and striving to love and serve God is good in itself, even if that person does not know its version of events. I don’t believe that showing up on someone’s doorstep and saying ‘hey, Jesus died for your sins!’ automatically damns them if they decide not to take your word for it. And really, the primary source is gone – dead in 33 AD, according to the Church; so, in the face of fallible human missionaries, I think it quite reasonable to expect that many virtuous people would not accept those teachings yet still be considered loved and loving children of God, even if they may not consider themselves that.

Baptism of desire!

 

[Mirdath]

Baptism of desire!

Exactly

 

[djamu]

I don’t care what they think. jesus taught some real good stuff.

 

[ricmat]

Exactly

Baptism of desire is good. I guess we agree on that.

I’m not sure exactly what you object to, but basically it is tough to be a good person. Most people need help (as in “divine help”).

The RCC is the place where the fullness of help is available - the sacraments which give us helpful grace, and teachings which elaborate on issues of morals and ethics.

Without this fullness, you might still be able to be really really good - in the absolute sense, not the “the way I define good to be” sense. But it’s more difficult.

So baptism of desire is good, but utilizing all the tools which God gave us is even better.

 

[Valke2]

No, I wanted something to stop me from being alone, which I finally did for myself. God neevr helped me with anything, but you’re just going to say that it was god and not I that did that.
As for my parents, they were not bad parents at all, except a tad controlling. They always made sure evrything was okay, always made sure I was never without.
And about my parents not listening, my dad was military and always on TDY, and my mom had to work 10-12 hours a day just so we could live in our house and pay the bills. had they listened to your god’s call for them to be there, we wouldn’t have been able to pay a mortgage.

Oh, and everyone says pelase god let that not be my house. The mature people simply add “If it is, let things be okay, if it not, then please let there be a way I can help.”

Sooner or later, it ends up being your house. And who is to say whether the Jew, the Christian, the Muslim or the Atheist will be best equipped to deal with it?

 

[Oneiron]

I beleive the idea is expressed is that as all Christian Faiths contain part of the Truth-that being Christ. What oneiron describes sounds like something out of Star Wars…

What do you think some of the concepts in Star Wars were based on? The Tao is a concept much older than Mr. Lucas’s trilogy.

 

[Mirdath]

Baptism of desire is good. I guess we agree on that.

Apparently so

I’m not sure exactly what you object to, but basically it is tough to be a good person. Most people need help (as in “divine help”).

Is it really that hard? As far as I’m concerned it’s pretty much just a matter of not being a jerk (ie, love God and thy neighbor as thyself – though of course the first part is kind of up in the air for me).

What I was objecting to is the implication of the necessity of the Catholic concept of God in striving to lead a virtuous life – but then that’s what your faith dictates, which we simply disagree on

 

[JonathanKinsman]

So where was god when i grew up firmly believing in him and I only saw my dad two months out of the year and my mom 2 days out of the week? Where was god when i had to raise myself at 10 years old with no clue about anything? Where was god when my dad lost the use of most of his arm for over a year. Where was god when called out begging for everything to be all right and nothing was? I asked god for proof he existed, for something to go right. I prayed as hard as I could. No matter how hard I prayed and how hard I tried nothign started going right until I stopped praying and started believing no one would help.

What divine plan, what merciful and loving god would abandon a 10 year old who believes and loves god with all his heart? And my life wasn’t bad in comparison to many of my friends’ lives.

If god would offer proof of his existence to those who earnestly ask, he’d have a lot more followers.

Well, if this is biographical, then you have answered my questions on the “Loving” thread. Sorry you are so bitter. Should we trade stories??

 

[Valke2]

There is a saying that someone felt really sorry for themselves because they had no shoes, until he saw someone else who had no feet.

What if you are the person with no feet?

 

[Valke2]

What do you think some of the concepts in Star Wars were based on? The Tao is a concept much older than Mr. Lucas’s trilogy.

I don’t see how you can say that, since Star Wars to place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

 

[Oneiron]

I don’t see how you can say that, since Star Wars to place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

:tiphat: guess you got me tehre

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Mirdath:

Did you get your handle from a Hodgson novel?? The Lady Mirdath thing?

Just curious, I had a friend who was a enthusiast for HP Lovecraft while we were in HS.

As to your earlier correction of RICMAT as to Dante’s* Inferno:*
sorry, the last (9th) circle in Hell is for sins of pride: and nothing says P-R-I-D-E better than the-angel-formerly-known-as-Lucifer stuck in the ice of Cocytus (the old quote from the OT “Pride goes before a fall”).

Treachery to others always involves pride. If you’re interested (you sound like you flit around alot on matters intellectual, though) PM me and I will send the resources (Catholic and Italian Renaissance literature) for you to better understand.

As to proofs of God, like Ribozyme and his random toss outs, scientific theories are that and issues of faith are that. You can deduce from physical realities evidence of design (not randomness). The molecular level is a good place to start. So is applied mathematics. Positing ‘eternal universes’ or ‘singularities’ is just that, guessing.

If you want to discuss form and structure, mathematical probabilities that are, in essence, impossibities, then I’m your man (to paraphrase Tybalt in Romeo & Juliet).

I do not have to rely on the OT or NT to support my belief in a Creator (Whom many of us in the West refer to as “God” for ease of conversation and worship).

We can talk Campbell, Newman, Weinberg, Darwin, Gould, any one else’s theories.

For starters how about this: as Catholics we do not need an implication that God is necessary to live a virtuous life. If RICMAT or any other poster implied that, well, he and they were in error.

The Church recognizes ‘natural law’ which all of mankind possess (sort of like that ‘God gene’ thesis a year or so ago) where we are hardwired to know the difference what is good and what is not good. (And no, don’t bring up that old canard about ‘survival skills’ in society from some primitive, mutated gene pool of the ‘Mister Rogers Tribe’).

The Cycle of Redemption has nothing to do with being a good person and whatever else your ‘faith’ (listed as “etc”) holds dear.

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath:

Did you get your handle from a Hodgson novel?? The Lady Mirdath thing?

Yes! The Night Land is one of my favorite books It’s so undeservedly obscure now I didn’t know if anyone would get it

As to your earlier correction of RICMAT as to Dante’s* Inferno:*
sorry, the last (9th) circle in Hell is for sins of pride: and nothing says P-R-I-D-E better than the-angel-formerly-known-as-Lucifer stuck in the ice of Cocytus (the old quote from the OT “Pride goes before a fall”).

Yet all the people there are explicitly there for treachery, if I remember correctly. One could say that the sin of Pride is exemplified by all who are punished in the eight circles below Limbo.

Treachery to others always involves pride. If you’re interested (you sound like you flit around alot on matters intellectual, though) PM me and I will send the resources (Catholic and Italian Renaissance literature) for you to better understand.

So do other sins – after all, pride is the chief of the cardinal sins, is it not?

Anyway, I’d love to talk classic lit

As to proofs of God, like Ribozyme and his random toss outs, scientific theories are that and issues of faith are that. You can deduce from physical realities evidence of design (not randomness). The molecular level is a good place to start. So is applied mathematics. Positing ‘eternal universes’ or ‘singularities’ is just that, guessing.

Given that faith requires a leap from reason into belief, one might say it’s on the same level as guessing too; further, guesses like that introduce an extra variable – God, whose influence cannot be humanly accounted for. When discussing issues of science, this variable throws the entire theory out of whack because of humanity’s imperfect knowledge of God and his actions.

I do not have to rely on the OT or NT to support my belief in a Creator (Whom many of us in the West refer to as “God” for ease of conversation and worship).

I’m curious – what then do you rely on?

For starters how about this: as Catholics we do not need an implication that God is necessary to live a virtuous life. If RICMAT or any other poster implied that, well, he and they were in error.

Okay, thanks

The Church recognizes ‘natural law’ which all of mankind possess (sort of like that ‘God gene’ thesis a year or so ago) where we are hardwired to know the difference what is good and what is not good. (And no, don’t bring up that old canard about ‘survival skills’ in society from some primitive, mutated gene pool of the ‘Mister Rogers Tribe’).

Actually I believe the ‘natural law’ as it has been described to me is a reflection of the social contract behind human civilization, and not universal across humanity. I came to this conclusion from knowledge of how different cultures had different concepts of good. There are several things most of these have in common – for instance, prohibitions against murder and theft – but there are differences between cultural social contracts. For one example, several ancient Greek cultures legitimized and promoted homosexuality.

The Cycle of Redemption has nothing to do with being a good person and whatever else your ‘faith’ (listed as “etc”) holds dear.

Cycle of redemption? Can you explain further, please?

 

[Valke2]

sorry, the last (9th) circle in Hell is for sins of pride: and nothing says P-R-I-D-E better than the-angel-formerly-known-as-Lucifer stuck in the ice of Cocytus (the old quote from the OT “Pride goes before a fall”).

If you are going to use that kind of fuzzy logic, then most if not all the circles of Hell are for sins of pride. Forgery, violence, lust. If Trechery to others alawys invovles pride, then I would think it would apply equally to all the others.

 

[ricmat]

For starters how about this: as Catholics we do not need an implication that God is necessary to live a virtuous life. If RICMAT or any other poster implied that, well, he and they were in error.

The Church recognizes ‘natural law’ which all of mankind possess (sort of like that ‘God gene’ thesis a year or so ago) where we are hardwired to know the difference what is good and what is not good. (And no, don’t bring up that old canard about ‘survival skills’ in society from some primitive, mutated gene pool of the ‘Mister Rogers Tribe’).

I had no intention of saying or implying that God, or the Catholic way of doing things is necessary to lead a virtuous life.

My main point was that we all need help, help comes in many forms, and the Catholic Church is the most complete source of help. Without that help it is much more difficult to be virtuous.

 

[ricmat]

What if you are the person with no feet?

Then be thankful that you have life.

And even if you have no feet, and are in a coma, then God’s glory may be made manifest in you, by virtue of the loving care that others provide for you. You can help lead them to salvation.