London?

[r.gonzales]

Proud Kafir:

Qur’an 3:150

kafir, you really should check your references to make sure they’re correct. verse 3:150 reads, “rather, Allah is your Protector (mawlaa) and He is the best of helpers.”

all these continuous mistakes in referencing verses you and other members of this board quote, regardless of how minor the mistake is, just proves that none of you verify the things you read that attack islam and try to skew its teachings. you just parrot the anti-islamic propaganda you find on sites attacking islam. and this just continues to weaken your credibility. no verification, no real knowledge of what you say… :nope:

the verse you’re looking for is the one that follows it, 3:151. “We will cast fright in the hearts of those who disbelieved due to what they associated with Allah, which did not have an authority sent for it. and their place of refuge is the fire, and how wretched is the abode of the oppressors.”

this verse has a specific context. one which you would have to know the history of islam to fully understand. his verse, the verses before it, as well as the verses after it all speak of a specific event, the battle of uhud. the complete passage reads, “o those who believed, if you obey those who disbelieved they would drive you back on your heels and you would turn back as losers. however, Allah is your Protector and He is the best of helpers. We will cast fright in the hearts of those who disbelieved due to what they associated with Allah, which did not have an authority sent for it. and their place of refuge is the fire, and how wretched is the abode of the oppressors. and certainly Allah has actualised His promise for you when you were killing them by His permission until when you lost courage and disputed regarding the command and disobeyed after what He showed you of what you wanted. some you are those who want the wordly [matters] and some of you are those who want the hereafter. then He turned you from them in order to test you, and certainly He has pardoned you. and Allah is Bountiful over the believers.” the verses that follow continue in telling of what happened at the battle of uhud, which can be read here: account of the battle of uhud (taken from ar-raheeq al-makhtoom).

as is clear from the verse directly after the one quoted by kafir, this promise of putting fear into the hearts of those who disbelieved has already occured. the reference to “those who disbelieved” refers to the pagan meccans who fought against prophet muhammad in during battle.

more to come…

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

Has Islam not committed countless atrocities? Isn’t that what just happened in London? Get real! Islam is the most violent religion this world has ever seen!

you should take your own advice and “get real”. no one’s denying that muslim extremists have committed gross violations and caused chaos and mischief around the world. in fact, there are many that denounce this and continually try to show that this is not from our religion. yet, many stubborn people like you continue to reject these condemnations and statements freeing us from their actions and continually accuse our religion as being the source of evil and the bane of existence.

yet, when the horrors your religion has committed in the past are brought up, you always go on the defensive, claiming that your religion has reformed itself and is no longer like that. (i suppose that this manmade reform is more proof of your religion’s divine make up, right? ).

and btw, the british authorities are still looking for who carried out those bombings in london and have doubt regarding the truthfulness of those claiming responsibility. so don’t be so confident on blaming the muslims just yet. :tsktsk: and if you’re wondering how i’m so sure of that, my wife is british and was born and raised in london. she has many family members there and is continually keeping tabs on what’s going on and what’s being said on the news there, which is a lot more reliable for info than the garbage spewed by the spin doctors at cnn.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam All;
Why is it that when seomeone sends a virus worldwide and break havook in other computers he is immediately traced and caught, and why is it that those who claims attacks and murders are never bothered.
To own a website, one has to register first, and the registration bears all the coordinates of the site owner, this means that the site owner(s) claiming the attacks are known but they are never bothered, why? Answer this question and you will probably know who is behind the murders.

Salaam
Joseph.

 

[mjdonnelly]

r.gonzales:

in fact, there are many that denounce this and continually try to show that this is not from our religion.

which is a lot more reliable for info than the garbage spewed by the spin doctors at cnn.

It just appears as if the countries where Islam are prevalent voice their condemnation, but limit it to that. No action.

Exactly correct about CNN.

 

[r.gonzales]

mjdonnelly:

It just appears as if the countries where Islam are prevalent voice their condemnation, but limit it to that. No action.

perhaps reading some of these news bulletins might change that misconception.

fatwa-online.com/news/index.htm

arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=66705&d=10&m=7&y=2005

news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050703/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_clashes

saudi for one is doing something about it, conducting raids and investigations. you just never hear about these things in mainstream media.

 

[palmas85]

I have a question, not so much about Islam but about the attitudes of some Muslems when questioned or confronted with news of current atrocities, Londo, 9/11 etc.

And please don’t get me wrong, I am not bashing Islam or denigrating the religion, but

After 9/11 the silence from Muslem condemnation of the attacks was almost deafening. Sure there were a few speakers who spoke out against the bombing but in general terms, usually defending Islam and bringing up Christian abuses from the Crusade era as a counterweight.

After the London bombing I heard a spokeman from some Muslem organization say that the deaths were an atrocity, but what was worse than the deaths were the statements claiming that the bombings were carried out in the name of Islam.

What? It was worse that a Muslem stood up, took responsibility for the killings saying it was for their faith, than the deaths of the innocent victims?

As I see it then, the good name of Islam is more important than the lives of those unfortunate souls who perished. At least that seems to be the opinion of most Muslems.

It seems to me that these radicals are either speaking truthfuuly about Islam and its’ beliefs

OR most Muslems tacitly support the attacks or at least don’t feel real bad about them,

OR the lives of a few or many Christians or any non-Muslim for that matter is better than any injury to the faith or more specifically the image of Islam in whatever regard.

And quite frankly, I believe if the Muslem governments really wanted to do anything about this problem they already would have. But it does seem that protecting the reputation of a religion means more than saving innocent lives.

I hope and pray that if Christian extremists ever take it upon themselves to respond in kind to what the Muslem radicals have been doing for years, that at least the Christians will stand up and denounce the atrocities for what they are.

 

[r.gonzales]

palmas85:

And quite frankly, I believe if the Muslem governments really wanted to do anything about this problem they already would have. But it does seem that protecting the reputation of a religion means more than saving innocent lives.

and what, pray tell, would it be that they would have done by now?

i already posted links to news bulletins showing that at the very least, saudi arabia is doing something about it. they’ve been doing something about it since 2003, conducting raids, investigations, arrests, etc.

what more would you have them do?

 

[radhika]

Interesting article, please read.

indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=74160

 

[iamrefreshed]

radhika:

Interesting article, please read.

indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=74160

Excellent article. Further proof that many Muslim’s DO believe in killing as part of their religion. That is not a statement against the peaceful Muslim’s here, but a FACT about others elsewhere.

Islam may be peaceful for many but not for nearly enough.

 

[manx]

radhika:

Interesting article, please read.

indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=74160

Interestingly -RUBBISH. I am not a Muslim but I don’t get information about Islam from unreliable sources like this. Have you tried joining Muslim forums? It will help you a lot in removing your misconceptions about Islam.

manx

 

[manx]

r.gonzales:

and what, pray tell, would it be that they would have done by now?

i already posted links to news bulletins showing that at the very least, saudi arabia is doing something about it. they’ve been doing something about it since 2003, conducting raids, investigations, arrests, etc.

what more would you have them do?

Unless our arrogant government and its allies start changing their international policies ( this includes stopping the enforcement of an alien system like democracy to the Muslims who believe in the Shariah as the correct law ) in the Middle East, terrorism will continue.

manx

 

[iamrefreshed]

manx:

Unless our arrogant government and its allies start changing their international policies ( this includes stopping the enforcement of an alien system like democracy to the Muslims who believe in the Shariah as the correct law ) in the Middle East, terrorism will continue.

manx

Unfortunately, not everyone forced to live under Shariah is Muslim. Nor do they want to be forced to live under a religion in which they do not believe.

Go ask a Christian in Saudi Arabia if you don’t believe me.

 

[r.gonzales]

iamrefreshed:

Unfortunately, not everyone forced to live under Shariah is Muslim. Nor do they want to be forced to live under a religion in which they do not believe.

Go ask a Christian in Saudi Arabia if you don’t believe me.

anyone who lives in whatever country is subject to that country’s laws, regardless of what that country is.

any christian who has chosen to live in saudi, whether it be for business or some other reason, has chosen to live under the laws that they implement.

islam is a complete way of life, which not only includes legislations with respect to worship and daily conduct, it also includes a set of laws and regulations for how the islamic society is run. if they don’t like being subjected to the sharee’ah, then maybe they should leave saudi. (likewise any muslim who doesn’t like living under western law should leave those western countries if they are able).

 

[iamrefreshed]

r.gonzales:

anyone who lives in whatever country is subject to that country’s laws, regardless of what that country is.

any christian who has chosen to live in saudi, whether it be for business or some other reason, has chosen to live under the laws that they implement.

islam is a complete way of life, which not only includes legislations with respect to worship and daily conduct, it also includes a set of laws and regulations for how the islamic society is run. if they don’t like being subjected to the sharee’ah, then maybe they should leave saudi. (likewise any muslim who doesn’t like living under western law should leave those western countries if they are able).

I’m curious r.gonzales. Do you really believe that religious freedom should not exist? To say, if you don’t like it move, shows very little charity.

 

[burnside]

r.gonzales:

anyone who lives in whatever country is subject to that country’s laws, regardless of what that country is.

any christian who has chosen to live in saudi, whether it be for business or some other reason, has chosen to live under the laws that they implement.

islam is a complete way of life, which not only includes legislations with respect to worship and daily conduct, it also includes a set of laws and regulations for how the islamic society is run. if they don’t like being subjected to the sharee’ah, then maybe they should leave saudi. (likewise any muslim who doesn’t like living under western law should leave those western countries if they are able).

The difference is you are able to organize violent protests against the things you don’t like in the West,but if you tried the same
thing in Saudi Arabia you’d probably get 500 lashes.In Afghanistan,when the Taliban were in charge,they were destroying Images which related to a religion other than their own.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

yet, when the horrors your religion has committed in the past are brought up, you always go on the defensive, claiming that your religion has reformed itself and is no longer like that. (i suppose that this manmade reform is more proof of your religion’s divine make up, right?

So you accuse us of committing atrocities but deny that Islam has commited more than anyone? Islam is a manmade religion, the Qur’an is not the word of God and Mohammed was a false prophet who fabricated "revelations for all occasions!

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

So you accuse us of committing atrocities but deny that Islam has commited more than anyone? Islam is a manmade religion, the Qur’an is not the word of God and Mohammed was a false prophet who fabricated "revelations for all occasions!

woman, you make no sense.

 

[JP2Admirer]

r.gonzales:

i have asked myself this and i’ve come up with the same reason why people follow other religions and falsehoods. some people are just people of desires and do not want to accept the truth. some people are impatient with the methods legislated by Allah for bringing about change and wish to change things themselves by means not condoned by islam - such as speaking openly about the rulers, protests, revolts and rebellions.

Okay, so some people are just of base desires and want to fulfill their own wishes. I get it. Could it be argued that Muhammad was one of these people? Afterall, I would consider it rather worldly to have a harem, amass wealth, and conquer foreign lands. The feeling I’m getting is that you are a well educated man, but do you claim to be the final authority on Islam? Why is your interpretation correct and the terrorists incorrect? How do you know some of the Muslim governments aren’t executing Sharia properly? Can you prove it?

Also, you keep pointing to where the transliteration from the Arab language to English is mistaken. Am I wrong, or don’t most of the terrorists read Arabic? How are they misinterpreting what is written?

 

[UnworthySoul]

r.gonzales:

perhaps reading some of these news bulletins might change that misconception.

fatwa-online.com/news/index.htm

arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=66705&d=10&m=7&y=2005

news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050703/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_clashes

saudi for one is doing something about it, conducting raids and investigations. you just never hear about these things in mainstream media.

And yet Saudi Arabia remains in the thrall of the most virulent strain of Islam. Whabbism. They make oblations to fighting terrorism while members of the Royal family make payments to the terrorists to help fund them. And yes, I have been there, so don’t ask how I would know.

 

[JP2Admirer]

r.gonzales:

who’s denying it? of course they get their ideologies from interpreting the Quran… but who’s interpretation are they going by and using? the answer is that they’re interpreting it according to their desires and whatever other doubts their hearts contain instead of referring to the erudite scholars of the religion to see if their understanding is correct.

And you are not interpreting it according to your own desires? Says who, you? You may be an honest individual but I would argue that you (nor any of us) are impeccable (i.e. you have some moral lacunae.) Who is to say you don’t interpret those erudite scholars to fit your desires? You?

The Catholic Church has a teaching authority given us by Christ. Even if there are things within the Church that I subjectively disagree with (incidentally there have been things in the past that on the surface I disagreed with the Church on, but after study found Her to be right, as she always is), I submit because I know I CAN BE WRONG and that the Church CANNOT BE (in regards to faith and morals.)

I also think it is unintellectual to only use Muslim sources to study your religion. That’s like saying a movie is good because the producers say so.

No, you go to the religions critics to find out its faults. Of course the “producers” will shed a good light on it, they made it!

Catholics can go to the critics and withstand what they say about the religion. Muslims, I’m afraid, if they are honest with themselves, cannot stare down the critics, and demonstrate that there are not contradictions (as Aristotle said was the tell tale sign of truth). That is, Catholics can read secular (or more recently Protestant) critiques, and prove from sources outside of the religion that events actually occurred, or what the true history is.

If you want to know the truth, you don’t ask the guy who wrote the propaganda.

Finally, a lot of my Christian friends on here have been pointing to the fact that Muhammad was one man who simply “made up” a religion to serve his desires (I think they are right judging by his worldly behavior.)

Christ does not have that same problem because 1) He was celibate (sex being on of the most worldly of aspects to our existence, 2) He was poor, (from all accounts during His ministry He had no home and lived as a vegabond), 3) He had no political influence, and when confronted about it, He said render to Caesar what is his and to God what is God’s. Obviously, He wasn’t after political power (and had He been, He had quite a substantial following that He very easily could have raised an army), 4) Christ never killed anyone. Not one person! Not even sinners!

What of this world did Christ get in return for His ministry? He got tortured and CRUCIFIED! I doubt you can say He worked for His own desires. The same can be said of His followers, of whom many were martyred! Can you say the same of Muhammad? He was no ascetic!