London?

[UnworthySoul]

manx:

Unless our arrogant government and its allies start changing their international policies ( this includes stopping the enforcement of an alien system like democracy to the Muslims who believe in the Shariah as the correct law ) in the Middle East, terrorism will continue.

manx

I am stunned and amazed that you complain about free societies but then seem to not have anything bad to say about a system as oppressive to non-Muslims as Shariah law. There is no more oppressive system of government in place today.

 

[r.gonzales]

UnworthySoul:

And yet Saudi Arabia remains in the thrall of the most virulent strain of Islam. Whabbism. They make oblations to fighting terrorism while members of the Royal family make payments to the terrorists to help fund them. And yes, I have been there, so don’t ask how I would know.

do you even know what wahhabism is? and what its ideologies are?

 

[UnworthySoul]

r.gonzales:

woman, you make no sense.

Was the “woman” part necessary or was that inherent bigotry to women as inferior people showing through?

 

[UnworthySoul]

r.gonzales:

i have asked myself this and i’ve come up with the same reason why people follow other religions and falsehoods. some people are just people of desires and do not want to accept the truth. some people are impatient with the methods legislated by Allah for bringing about change and wish to change things themselves by means not condoned by islam - such as speaking openly about the rulers, protests, revolts and rebellions.

Then you speak of slavery. Enjoy it, I prefer freedom from such oppression.

 

[UnworthySoul]

r.gonzales:

do you even know what wahhabism is? and what its ideologies are?

Yes, I do. Do you? I spent a considerable amount of time in Saudi Arabia, how long were you there? Or were you ever there? I had plenty of fascinating conversations with learned people there. How many people there have you spoken to? Either you are ignorant of what Wahhabism is, or you choose to ignore it. Or perhaps you condone such harsh law?

 

[r.gonzales]

JP2Admirer:

The feeling I’m getting is that you are a well educated man, but do you claim to be the final authority on Islam?

no i don’t claim this. the final authority on islam is the Quran and authentic sunnah or prophet muhammad.

JP2Admirer:

How do you know some of the Muslim governments aren’t executing Sharia properly? Can you prove it?

you take the laws the government runs its country by and you compare it to the sharee’ah. this is how you prove it. the sharee’ah calls for the hand of the theif to be cut off. if the goverment doesn’t implement this legislated punishment, they’ve fallen short of implementing the complete sharee’ah. the sharee’ah also calls for the stoning of the deflowered adulterer/adulteress. if they kill them, but by any other means, they’ve fallen short. so how about if they don’t kill them at all? and there are many other examples of this that can be mentioned to show how goverments today do not implement the sharee’ah properly, not just with respect to legislated punishements either.

JP2Admirer:

How are they misinterpreting what is written?

by not referring back to the Quranic exegesis to verify if their interpretations are correct.

JP2Admirer:

And you are not interpreting it according to your own desires? Says who, you? You may be an honest individual but I would argue that you (nor any of us) are impeccable (i.e. you have some moral lacunae.) Who is to say you don’t interpret those erudite scholars to fit your desires? You?

firstly, no one’s claiming infallibility and no one’s claiming moral perfection. i do fall into sin and i do make mistakes. however, as i mentioned, we muslims have something to turn back to to ensure that we’re upon the correct understanding. when i read the Quran, i make sure to check the classical works of exegesis to make sure i’m understanding things correctly. and the same goes for hadeeths, i check back to their explanations to ensure i’m understanding things correctly. sure, i can not do this if i want and interpret things according to how i wish, but i don’t for the simple fact that i fear my Lord’s punishment and yearn for His pleasure. of course, you don’t have to believe me in that, but that’s the simple truth.

JP2Admirer:

I also think it is unintellectual to only use Muslim sources to study your religion. That’s like saying a movie is good because the producers say so.

No, you go to the religions critics to find out its faults. Of course the “producers” will shed a good light on it, they made it!

that’s provided that you believe your religion has faults. i don’t believe mine does. and there are enough muslim scholars in the past to refer to without ever having to refer to orientalists on the outside looking in.

JP2Admirer:

Catholics can go to the critics and withstand what they say about the religion. Muslims, I’m afraid, if they are honest with themselves, cannot stare down the critics, and demonstrate that there are not contradictions (as Aristotle said was the tell tale sign of truth). That is, Catholics can read secular (or more recently Protestant) critiques, and prove from sources outside of the religion that events actually occurred, or what the true history is.

with respect to history, even those outside the religion used muslim sources to learn about early islamic history - and more specifically, prophet muhammad’s life and biography.

JP2Admirer:

If you want to know the truth, you don’t ask the guy who wrote the propaganda.

no, you don’t. but you also don’t go to the liars or those who have clear biases against it, either. i take my truths from those who are deemed trustworthy and truthful. not from just any joe-schmoe.

JP2Admirer:

Finally, a lot of my Christian friends on here have been pointing to the fact that Muhammad was one man who simply “made up” a religion to serve his desires (I think they are right judging by his worldly behavior.)

i wonder if you would judge other prophets such as david and solomon in similar fashion. they were prophet kings, who had dominions under their command. if all you’re judging muhammad by are supposed “worldly actions” to determine whether he was truthful or not, that’s pretty sad.

JP2Admirer:

He got tortured and CRUCIFIED!

not according to our beliefs.

JP2Admirer:

I doubt you can say He worked for His own desires.

he was a prophet of God, of course he didn’t.

JP2Admirer:

Can you say the same of Muhammad? He was no ascetic!

perhaps you should read a real biography of him before making such a claim.

 

[r.gonzales]

UnworthySoul:

Yes, I do. Do you?

i’m a muslim. of course i do.

UnworthySoul:

I spent a considerable amount of time in Saudi Arabia, how long were you there? Or were you ever there?

do i have to have been there to know what it is? i have many friends that grew up there, live there or lived there, work or worked there, study or studied there at their islamic universities (namely the islamic university in madeenah).

UnworthySoul:

I had plenty of fascinating conversations with learned people there.

really? like who? what are their credentials?

UnworthySoul:

How many people there have you spoken to?

quite a bit actually. i’ve even translated works by scholars who are from there. the islamic centre i volunteer at also has weekly video-links with some of the top scholars of that country as well…

UnworthySoul:

Either you are ignorant of what Wahhabism is, or you choose to ignore it. Or perhaps you condone such harsh law?

hah. that’s pretty funny considering i read and study muhammad bin 'abdil-wahhaab’s books as well as the books of the scholars he took from like ibn taimiyyah and his student ibn qayyim al-jawziyyah. i know what wahhabism is - heck i’ve even been accused of being wahhabi.

now the question is… do you know what it really is or do you just think you know what it is?

 

[JP2Admirer]

One more thing, we Catholics can also prove that Christ was who He said He was, and that we have the Church as the proper interpreter of faith and morals.

If I am not mistaken, Muslims consider Christ to have been a great moral philosopher, but that He was not the Son of God or part of the Trinity.

But you cannot have it both ways because He claimed to be the Second part of the Holy Trinity.

So was He a madman, or who He claimed to be? He had no attributes of someone who is insane.

Can someone be moral and fake who they are completely, lie, and send soles to the hellfires because of that lie? Because if Christ isn’t who He claimed to be, then that is what awaits Christians.

How does a Muslim claim that Christ was a prophet from God, but a liar about being God? How could anything He taught be moral if He lied completely about who He was.

Since Christ was not a madman, and He was a great moral philosopher, we can assume He told the truth in claiming to be God. From there we move to the fact that He told us He would send us a visible Advocate that would guard the faith against heresy. Since He was sane, that means He was God, and that His Church survives. We have a divine interpreter, not subjective opinions.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

that’s provided that you believe your religion has faults. i don’t believe mine does. and there are enough muslim scholars in the past to refer to without ever having to refer to orientalists on the outside looking in.

Really??

not according to our beliefs.

Yes, according to our beliefs!

 

[hawk]

JP2Admirer:

If I am not mistaken, Muslims consider Christ to have been a great moral philosopher, but that He was not the Son of God or part of the Trinity.

But you cannot have it both ways because He claimed to be the Second part of the Holy Trinity.

Where did He claim this in the Bible, in His own words?

Where does He say I am God?

Christ the person, never revealed His true nature, directly.

Christ the person even said that He would never claim this—Until He was with His Father, and then all things shall be made known.

But why do we need Jesus the Christ?

Because since the moment of our creation we have sought to love other things before God.

God died for us(for our sins) to restore our faith in Him.

What would he not do for us?

Even should a mother forget her child, God would never forget us.

Isa of Islam, is supposedly a messenger with the same teachings as Mohammed.

I have pointed out though, that Jesus’ teachings were never the same as Mohammeds teachings, this alone shows that even were you to deny Jesus’ divinity, you cannot claim that he spoke anything akin to Islam.

Infact I would have to say that Jesus would have to be considered a highly enlightened Bodhisattava, who was forced to teach a people who were obsessed with God.

He ofcourse was never a muslim

 

[r.gonzales]

faulty reasoning JP, based on the premise that we hold the bible to be an authority on jesus’ life and teachings.

JP2Admirer:

One more thing, we Catholics can also prove that Christ was who He said He was, and that we have the Church as the proper interpreter of faith and morals.

perhaps you mean can prove according to the bible that he was who it is said he claimed to be. however, muslims don’t believe in the bible - whatever conforms to islamic belief is accepted as the truth, whatever clearly contradicts islamic belief regarding jesus and his teachings is rejected and whatever is neither in conformity or contradictory to what we believe is left and is neither believed in or disbelieved in.

JP2Admirer:

If I am not mistaken, Muslims consider Christ to have been a great moral philosopher, but that He was not the Son of God or part of the Trinity.

partially correct. we do not believe he was the son of God, or part of any trinity. but we believe he was a prophet and messenger sent to the children of israel by God. we believe that he was sent to call the children of israel to the worship of Allah alone, without associating anything in worship with Him. we believe in whatever has been conveyed to us about him by Allah in His Quran and upon the tongue of his final messenger, muhammad.

 

[r.gonzales]

Booklover:

Really??

Yes, according to our beliefs!

do you ever have anything of substance to post?

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

do you ever have anything of substance to post?

I post things like that just to annoy you!

 

[JP2Admirer]

r.gonzales:

no i don’t claim this. the final authority on islam is the Quran and authentic sunnah or prophet muhammad.

So the Quran and the authentic sunnah interpret themselves? That’s odd, considering different people read it differently. Last I looked, the Quran wasn’t running around telling people what it means. Reading requires interpretation. The Quran is right, even though it is understood differently by different people. So whose Quran is right, yours or the terrorists? What’s the difference? The words are the same, but the reading different. That makes the exegete the final authority, right? If so, which exegete is the final authority?

 

[Eetaq]

hawk:

Where did He claim this in the Bible, in His own words?

Where does He say I am God?

Christ the person, never revealed His true nature, directly.

Christ the person even said that He would never claim this—Until He was with His Father, and then all things shall be made known.

But why do we need Jesus the Christ?

Because since the moment of our creation we have sought to love other things before God.

God died for us(for our sins) to restore our faith in Him.

What would he not do for us?

Even should a mother forget her child, God would never forget us.

Isa of Islam, is supposedly a messenger with the same teachings as Mohammed.

I have pointed out though, that Jesus’ teachings were never the same as Mohammeds teachings, this alone shows that even were you to deny Jesus’ divinity, you cannot claim that he spoke anything akin to Islam.

Infact I would have to say that Jesus would have to be considered a highly enlightened Bodhisattava, who was forced to teach a people who were obsessed with God.

He ofcourse was never a muslim

Your devieving k thanks.

Jesus was a musilm, since his message was one of submitting to the will of God, which you cant argue with.

And, we all know his teachings weren’t the same, Isa didn’t teach of salat or fasting in ramadhan, which we all know means he didnt teach the same.

however the Idea of monotheism and of good deeds is the same, almost exactly, between both teachings, so thus he did teach a similar lesson.

And, if you have always sought to love things before God (which you have been forbidden from doing) than why is it alright for you to love Jesus (I assume you dont love him the same way you love your wife and kids, but in a divine way)

 

[JP2Admirer]

r.gonzales:

no i don’t claim this. the final authority on islam is the Quran and authentic sunnah or prophet muhammad.

you take the laws the government runs its country by and you compare it to the sharee’ah. this is how you prove it. the sharee’ah calls for the hand of the theif to be cut off. if the goverment doesn’t implement this legislated punishment, they’ve fallen short of implementing the complete sharee’ah. the sharee’ah also calls for the stoning of the deflowered adulterer/adulteress. if they kill them, but by any other means, they’ve fallen short. so how about if they don’t kill them at all? and there are many other examples of this that can be mentioned to show how goverments today do not implement the sharee’ah properly, not just with respect to legislated punishements either.

by not referring back to the Quranic exegesis to verify if their interpretations are correct.

firstly, no one’s claiming infallibility and no one’s claiming moral perfection. i do fall into sin and i do make mistakes. however, as i mentioned, we muslims have something to turn back to to ensure that we’re upon the correct understanding. when i read the Quran, i make sure to check the classical works of exegesis to make sure i’m understanding things correctly. and the same goes for hadeeths, i check back to their explanations to ensure i’m understanding things correctly. sure, i can not do this if i want and interpret things according to how i wish, but i don’t for the simple fact that i fear my Lord’s punishment and yearn for His pleasure. of course, you don’t have to believe me in that, but that’s the simple truth.

that’s provided that you believe your religion has faults. i don’t believe mine does. and there are enough muslim scholars in the past to refer to without ever having to refer to orientalists on the outside looking in.

with respect to history, even those outside the religion used muslim sources to learn about early islamic history - and more specifically, prophet muhammad’s life and biography.

no, you don’t. but you also don’t go to the liars or those who have clear biases against it, either. i take my truths from those who are deemed trustworthy and truthful. not from just any joe-schmoe.

i wonder if you would judge other prophets such as david and solomon in similar fashion. they were prophet kings, who had dominions under their command. if all you’re judging muhammad by are supposed “worldly actions” to determine whether he was truthful or not, that’s pretty sad.

not according to our beliefs.

he was a prophet of God, of course he didn’t.

perhaps you should read a real biography of him before making such a claim.

 

[hawk]

Eetaq:

however the Idea of monotheism and of good deeds is the same, almost exactly, between both teachings, so thus he did teach a similar lesson.

And, if you have always sought to love things before God (which you have been forbidden from doing) than why is it alright for you to love Jesus (I assume you dont love him the same way you love your wife and kids, but in a divine way)

Absolutely not.

Jesus says that his blood is the sign of the new covenant.
He specifically says that he has come to redeem the world to God, by His death and resurrection.

And His teachings are significantly different, in law and spirit from the Quran.

I have posted the huge differences in another thread.

 

[exoflare]

Eetaq:

And, if you have always sought to love things before God (which you have been forbidden from doing) than why is it alright for you to love Jesus (I assume you dont love him the same way you love your wife and kids, but in a divine way)

Yes. Jesus is God! All hail the king of the universe! :bounce:

:bowdown::bowdown: Isa Akbar!! :bowdown::bowdown:

 

[UnworthySoul]

Eetaq:

Jesus was a musilm, since his message was one of submitting to the will of God, which you cant argue with.

Will you stop with this nonsense? Jesus lived as a man on earth CENTURIES before Mohammed created his religion. Cannot aruge with it? You’re deluded if you believe that.

 

[JP2Admirer]

hawk:

Where did He claim this in the Bible, in His own words?

Where does He say I am God?

Christ the person, never revealed His true nature, directly.

Christ the person even said that He would never claim this—Until He was with His Father, and then all things shall be made known.

But why do we need Jesus the Christ?

Because since the moment of our creation we have sought to love other things before God.

God died for us(for our sins) to restore our faith in Him.

What would he not do for us?

Even should a mother forget her child, God would never forget us.

Isa of Islam, is supposedly a messenger with the same teachings as Mohammed.

I have pointed out though, that Jesus’ teachings were never the same as Mohammeds teachings, this alone shows that even were you to deny Jesus’ divinity, you cannot claim that he spoke anything akin to Islam.

Infact I would have to say that Jesus would have to be considered a highly enlightened Bodhisattava, who was forced to teach a people who were obsessed with God.

He ofcourse was never a muslim

Here is another thread on the topic or Christs claim:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=60565

Matt 16: 13-20
Matt 26: 57-68

He was put to death for blasphemy, i.e. claiming that He was God.

Jesus teachings were never the same as Muhammad’s, but Christs are more consistent.

For instance, in another thread I argued with someone about how Muhammad stoned a woman for adultery, but then he condemns murder. With Christ there are not these inconsistencies.