Longing for a simpler faith

[Revert_43]

I would like to say that I believe this discussion seems to have taken a very ugly turn. I am disheartened by the number of hateful comments being posted regarding Protestant denominations. I just don’t see how in this day and age we cannot agree to disagree and love each other as Christians. While there is nothing wrong with discussing our differences I don’t see why it has to turn so hateful. I have run across some threads with titles which are something like “Why do people hate Catholics”. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards. Why would it be okay for one and not the other? There should be no free license to hate or attack anyone for their religious beliefs. Why is it so difficult for some of us to respect one another?

So for my part in this I’ll apologize in the spirit of Unitatis Redintegratio.

My anger seems misplaced due to my personal experience in an Evangelical Church any more details of that experience other than the one already present in this thread are not applicable.

 

[Answersplease]

Lapey, thanks for judging my understanding, level of ignorance, my rottenness and abominations. If hurtful, personal attacks are meant to draw people closer to Christ, I hope someday you will understand how they can actually push people away. But if your mission is a smaller Church, then good work I guess.

And you don’t think you push the Children of God away with your unwarranted attacks against the Catholic Church, they have already apologized for the scandal and it is not up to you to keep throwing it back in their faces.

When is it enough for people like you?

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

I fully know what you believe infallibility means. I just don’t believe Christ would have as a leader someone who He knows ahead of time is going to commit…

I believe we the flock can know false shepherd leaders by their fruit. If you don’t, that’s fine. My definition for a holy person in church leadership may be different than yours. That’s fine.

Hmmm…
So if the “flock can know false shepherds by their fruit”, do you honestly think that none of the 12 Apostles had no sin at all?
Because according to you, if the 12 Apostles picked by Jesus had sins than they are “false shepherds”.

Jesus The Christ picked:

Judas who betrayed Him,
Peter who denied Him 3 times when Peter said he wouln’t,
Thomas who wouldn’t believe until he got to put his fingers in Jesus’ wounds,
and the rest of the Apostles (except for John) who ran away and left Him at the cross.

But no I do not believe all of these bishops are holy and believe they need reproved. I am not holier than thou but I am not in a position of church leadership.

Hmmm…
Unless you proof that is just gossip, you don’t gossiping about people is a sin, especially if it hurts their reputation?
And even if you did have proof, if it is a crime then take it to the proper authorities.
If it is not a crime, then take the wooden plank out of your eye before you criticize the speck in their eyes.

But I also study Scripture as I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me to understanding.

What proof do you have that The Holy Spirit is guiding you?
And don’t you think that The Holy Spirit is guiding others here, like Lapey.

I believe all of Scripture was meant for generations to come. For the flock as well as the apostles.

Then read Matthew 23.

I am not fully convinced however humans can fully understand God’s truth in it’s entirety on earth. It’s called faith.

Peace.

You talk about faith?

The Apostle Peter had faith and he walked on water, he fell when he doubted.

Do you doubt, or can you walk on water?

 

[Answersplease]

I have not read the entire thread so my apologies if this is redundant.
…

I would like to say that I believe this discussion seems to have taken a very ugly turn. I am disheartened by the number of hateful comments being posted regarding Protestant denominations. I just don’t see how in this day and age we cannot agree to disagree and love each other as Christians. While there is nothing wrong with discussing our differences I don’t see why it has to turn so hateful. I have run across some threads with titles which are something like “Why do people hate Catholics”. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards. Why would it be okay for one and not the other? There should be no free license to hate or attack anyone for their religious beliefs. Why is it so difficult for some of us to respect one another?

Maybe you should read the entire thread before you post something like that.

There have been people here that are throwing the priest scandal back into the faces of the Catholics.
How many times do the Catholics have to apologize for that? When is it enough?

I don’t see you defending Catholicism from those attacks.

There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards.

So it is only “percieved”, and the hatred against Catholics is just a figment of their imagination. How very balanced and Christian of you to say, how very very nice.

“clear hatred of Protestantism”

So it is “clear hatred” against Protestants and “percieved hatred” against Catholics.
If you are going to pretend to be morally superior, then change you your language.

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Twenty four posts have been pruned from this thread because they were completely off topic.

Return to the topic of what is a Catholic response to someone saying they want “a simpler faith” or this thread will be closed and citations issued.

---

 

[Lutheranteach]

I only have my experience in the Protestant church to refer. It is my opinion that 80% of my Protestant service was for the congregation and 20% for the worship of God. When I was standing and clapping to a jumpy song while trying to keep up with the words going by on a big screen, I was not thinking of Him; I was thinking of the musical instrument sounds and keeping up with the words Maybe it was just me, but I found it impossible to see His face or feel His touch. I have no such problem in my CC. I experience Him when I walk through the door. People are praying in silence as compared to the socializing in my Protestant church right up to the time that the music starts. When I dip my finger in the Holy Water and feel the splash on my forehead, socializing stops and the worship of my God begins. Yes, Father is sort of mono toned and the lone piano could use a tuneup. But, there is no doubt who is present and why I’m there. If I feel the desire to be entertained, I will take in a movie later. BTW, the first time in my life that I’ve had a prayer answered (at least so quickly) was to Our Lady for her intersession with her Son. I had a severe problem I needed help with and it was answered immediately through the Rosary. Very awesome feeling when that happens.

I’ve had an opposite and equal experience where the Lutheran Church I attend has a lovely bell choir, a choir, an organ, a piano, and at some services acoustic guitar, flutes, clarinets or brass. I’ve never found the music inappropriate or distracting, but then again we use hymns straight from the hymnal for the most part. Now, I’ve been at a midnight mass where leotard clad dancers were running up and down the aisles gyrating all over the place to new age music and waving scarves in my face. I think I felt the same way you did about the loud tunes when that happened.

I’ve also seen polka masses and electric guitar masses and both were appropriate and catered to the congregations that were present. On Sundays the church I attend has two services. One is more traditional and the other is more contemporary — both, to me, are just as legit but the music is quite different.

 

[Hiskid1973]

BTW, the first time in my life that I’ve had a prayer answered (at least so quickly) was to Our Lady for her intersession with her Son. I had a severe problem I needed help with and it was answered immediately through the Rosary. Very awesome feeling when that happens.

And I have had and opposite experiences in the protestant side…Had a very radical conversion experience and good preaching/worship…And some pretty incredible experiences and answered prayer Just talking to Abba Father/Jesus…Like we were given example in scripture…God can get a hold of us wherever we are…It’s been almost 40 years and the passion and zeal are still burning…We get out what we put into a relationship…

 

[Lapey]

I would like to say that I believe this discussion seems to have taken a very ugly turn. I am disheartened by the number of hateful comments being posted regarding Protestant denominations. I just don’t see how in this day and age we cannot agree to disagree and love each other as Christians. While there is nothing wrong with discussing our differences I don’t see why it has to turn so hateful. I have run across some threads with titles which are something like “Why do people hate Catholics”. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards. Why would it be okay for one and not the other? There should be no free license to hate or attack anyone for their religious beliefs. Why is it so difficult for some of us to respect one another?

You know Elizabeth; these threads always turn ugly because of hardness of heart. We try to discuss issues but when we Catholics, this is a Catholic site by the way, present true Church teachings and back it up with scripture many protestants use their own interpretation of the same scripture to refute it without any regard to logic sometimes. Yes there is enough hardness of heart to go around; I know I am guilty at times myself. Since I have been a member of this site there have been many come and try to “teach” us Catholics the truth, and show us how wrong the Church is, or how evil its leaders are. This thread is no different.

If I would go to a Presbyterian site with some of my comments I would be banned I know, but here these views we hold are Catholic views and you cannot expect to come here as a protestant and speak untruths about our faith and not get a reaction. After the third and forth time you attempt to nicely correct someone’s misunderstanding of Church teaching or its relation to Sacred Scripture, it kind of gets aggravating.

At least once a week some protestant comes here and has the smoking gun and asks the question, “Why do Catholics worship Mary?” It really gets old after a while. Especially when you try to explain Marionology and it goes on deaf ears because the person you are talking to is so much more enlightened than me. Peter as the “rock” is another. There are so many misconceptions as to what the Catholic Church teaches and practices that it is ridiculous.

There is no way that you can come here to this Catholic site and refute what all of Christian history before 1517 has proclaimed to be truth and expect me to agree with it. I try repeatedly with tolerance to correct misinterpretation and when the party who brings the objection reverts to bringing up the priests scandals as a weapon, I fight back. I may be a little strong sometimes but so be it. Sometimes a little child has to be corrected sternly.

You are a Presbyterian and not Catholic so you see this thread as a Protestant. It would look quite different if your filter was the same as mine, quite different. See when someone comes to me and says I am wrong in my belief and that 2000 years of history is wrong, especially when Jesus established something the way it is and you say it is wrong, that is offensive. Through a protestant filter you would see that I am unable to be reformed and intolerant. Well I guess that will have to be so, sorry. Jesus came to change the world, not to be changed by the world.

I don’t know if you have read some of his work, but I would suggest reading Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism. Read about his testimony and you may see what another’s view of the other side was and how it changed with research and learning.

Sorry about the long post, but I get started typing sometimes and I just forget myself, kind of like my homilies from class and hopefully by the end of the year at mass.

 

[maggie41]

Our family has been invited to a breakfast at the small community church where my teenagers attend a non-denominational youth group. Sadly, our parish is lacking in youth activities. My teenagers are totally turned off to the Catholic faith. My daughter tells me that other Christians are more enthusiastic about God and Jesus. She thinks that most people in our church are dead in their faith. She says the youth group never says anything negative about the Catholic faith, by the way. I believe her on that, she’s a very forthright young lady. In actuality, our parish does seem dead.

Even though I’ll always love aspects of the Catholic faith and will always consider myself Catholic, I think it’s too complicated. I’ve read a lot here at this site that confirms that thought. I really don’t want to deal with so much complication in my relationship with God right now. I don’t feel like dragging my children to Mass anymore. We haven’t gone to Mass much in the last 6 months. I think our family will be looking for a simpler faith.

Hi Middleman,

One thing you need to ask yourself is “is it about me or Him”. When I was a protestant, my family and I did a lot of “church shopping”. We would visit several churches, looking for the one that met our needs. When I became Catholic one of the things that was made so apparent to me is that it is not about my enjoyment or entertainment, it is all about Him. It doesn’t matter how well the choir sings, or how gifted the priest or deacon are in delivering a homily, what matters is that Jesus is there, there to be worshipped and recieved.

I am not saying that it is ok for a parish to appear to be dead. But, have you talked to your priest about it, maybe he is feeling the same way and would love some help in waking the parish up. If not, you can always find a new parish.

I would say that the Catholic faith is deep, but not complicated. The Church is our mother and provides everything we small children need.

Please pray a lot about this before you just walk away from Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

In Christ’s Love,
Maggie

 

[maggie41]

Hmmm. After reading some of the other posts, and re-reading your original post I am wondering.

Is it a simpler faith you are longing for? Or a social club?

It is a very fair statement to say that many Catholic parishes ARE indeed weak when it comes to fellowship. And that is a valid concern.

But if that really is the “only” reason you are searching elsewhere, I would stop and think and pray.

Jesus wasnt about social clubs or even fellowshipping. He was about salvation and redemption.

He was about holiness and getting closer to God the Father. He was about forgiveness of sin and healing.

I expect He, of all people, experienced the most loneliness, of all people. Whom did He really have to completely relate to besides God the Father?

Even His own disciples didn’t “get it” for a great deal of time after His resurrection and His going to the Father.

Just something to mull over.

How deep, or how shallow, do you want your faith to be?

This is so true. Very well said!

In Christ’s Love,
Maggie

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Here are some of those denominations’ teachings:

United Methodist Church (The Great Mystery)
The Presence of Christ
Jesus Christ, who “is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being” (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus’ name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.

ELCA/ LCMS (In with and under…)
The Sacramental Union
Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are “truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms” of the consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants eat and drink both the elements and the true Body and Blood of Christ Himself (cf. The Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence is more accurately and formally known as “the Sacramental Union.” For Lutherans, there is no sacrament unless the elements are used according to Christ’s institution (consecration, distribution, and reception). Lutherans use the terms “in, with and under the forms of consecrated bread and wine” and “Sacramental Union” to distinguish their understanding of the Lord’s Supper from those of the Reformed and other traditions.

Presbyterian (Pneumatic Presence)
This, then, is the Presbyterian understanding of Communion: Is Jesus physically present in the elements of the Eucharist–have the molecules of bread been changed into molecules of the body of Jesus? No. Is Jesus spiritually present in the elements of the Eucharist, authentically present in the non-atom-based substance with which he is con-substantial with God–that is, is he genuinely there to be received by us, and not just in our memories? Yes.

Fair enough. Clearly this is not identical to Catholic teaching but it does qualify as a belief in the real presence, so to speak.

Thanks.

 

[tweetymom]

Well it is in the Bible to love God and put no other before Him. It even tells us where two are found, Christ is in their midsts. And I have no doubt it is a good thing to worship in community. It’s the definition that it’s a mortal sin part and vs something else being venial that I was referring to. Man made stuff.

Amen Lib. There are many laws in the CC that are not in the Bible.

 

[tweetymom]

Oh yes! Let us not kid ourselves, presumption can be a deadly sin.Carlan

Boy that is sure the truth.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Amen Lib. There are many laws in the CC that are not in the Bible.

Not true.

The Church is given the power to bind and loose in the bible.

Jesus told us to listen to the Church.

 

[tweetymom]

Not true.

The Church is given the power to bind and loose in the bible.

Jesus told us to listen to the Church.

I listen to Jesus.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I listen to Jesus.

I hope you are listening closely.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and** if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you!** As the Father has sent me, I am sending you**.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[tweetymom]

I hope you are listening closely.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and** if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you!** As the Father has sent me, I am sending you**.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

I do with all my heart.

 

[Carlan]

You know Elizabeth; these threads always turn ugly because of hardness of heart. We try to discuss issues but when we Catholics, this is a Catholic site by the way, present true Church teachings and back it up with scripture many protestants use their own interpretation of the same scripture to refute it without any regard to logic sometimes. Yes there is enough hardness of heart to go around; I know I am guilty at times myself. Since I have been a member of this site there have been many come and try to “teach” us Catholics the truth, and show us how wrong the Church is, or how evil its leaders are. This thread is no different.

If I would go to a Presbyterian site with some of my comments I would be banned I know, but here these views we hold are Catholic views and you cannot expect to come here as a protestant and speak untruths about our faith and not get a reaction. After the third and forth time you attempt to nicely correct someone’s misunderstanding of Church teaching or its relation to Sacred Scripture, it kind of gets aggravating.

At least once a week some protestant comes here and has the smoking gun and asks the question, “Why do Catholics worship Mary?” It really gets old after a while. Especially when you try to explain Marionology and it goes on deaf ears because the person you are talking to is so much more enlightened than me. Peter as the “rock” is another. There are so many misconceptions as to what the Catholic Church teaches and practices that it is ridiculous.

There is no way that you can come here to this Catholic site and refute what all of Christian history before 1517 has proclaimed to be truth and expect me to agree with it. I try repeatedly with tolerance to correct misinterpretation and when the party who brings the objection reverts to bringing up the priests scandals as a weapon, I fight back. I may be a little strong sometimes but so be it. Sometimes a little child has to be corrected sternly.

You are a Presbyterian and not Catholic so you see this thread as a Protestant. It would look quite different if your filter was the same as mine, quite different. See when someone comes to me and says I am wrong in my belief and that 2000 years of history is wrong, especially when Jesus established something the way it is and you say it is wrong, that is offensive. Through a protestant filter you would see that I am unable to be reformed and intolerant. Well I guess that will have to be so, sorry. Jesus came to change the world, not to be changed by the world.

I don’t know if you have read some of his work, but I would suggest reading Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism. Read about his testimony and you may see what another’s view of the other side was and how it changed with research and learning.

Sorry about the long post, but I get started typing sometimes and I just forget myself, kind of like my homilies** from class and hopefully by the end of the year at mass.

Great post Lapey, thank you!
As a Priest or Deacon? God BlessCarlan

 

[Elizabeth1558]

Answersplease:
Well, all I can say is that I am new to this board. I have posted about 5 or 6 times so if you haven’t seen any of my previous posts I am not surprised. That being said, I have not seen anyone make any comment about the current sexual abuse scandal within the Catholic church. I really have not seen the Catholic faith attacked on these boards. It would be quite stupid for someone to do such as this is a Catholic board; that would be someone who would clearly be looking for trouble. Attacking someone’s beliefs and disagreeing with someone’s beliefs are two different things. I perceived some of the above comments as verbal attacks on Protestant churches.

I didn’t read the entire board because there are a LOT of comments to get through and I had something I felt was important to say. I’ve seen others do the same on here and felt it was appropriate to skip some of the 200+ posts before making a comment.

I meant no harm. I just wanted to point out what I saw to be a hypocrisy between multiple threads on CAF; this was probably not the place to voice that concern. My apologies for that mistake.

 

[Carlan]

I listen to Jesus.

Our relationship with Jesus is precious, however, the Church is His bride and He is the Groom. He speaks to us through his Bride the Church,:yup:Carlan

 

[Carlan]

And I have had and opposite experiences in the protestant side…Had a very radical conversion experience and good preaching/worship…And some pretty incredible experiences and answered prayer Just talking to Abba Father/Jesus…Like we were given example in scripture…God can get a hold of us wherever we are…It’s been almost 40 years and the passion and zeal are still burning…We get out what we put into a relationship…

God know what it takes for each of us to respond to the actual grace he provides for everyone to turn away from sinful lives. He draws us all whether we are aware of it or not. For some, when they are ready to respond to his grace, he uses the words of a gifted preacher, for others it is the gentle intercession of the Mother of Jesus, or perhaps the pleading of our own mothers. He never forsakes any of us in our desperate need to be saved. Thank you precious Lord!Carlan