Looking Back at what the Reformation has Done

[Topper17]

Hi Randy,

The next time you feel the need to post something you wrote some time ago, please do so. You made a lot of excellent points.

Korah rebelled against the authority and leadership of Moses and Aaron by declaring, “all the community is holy”. To restate a portion of the above for emphasis, “If God is in our midst, then whoever is leading us will have His support. Or, going further (though this is not expressed): If we are all holy, what need is there for someone like Moses to instruct us, or why is there need for laws to make us holy? Since the people are holy, commandments from without are not necessary.” In a way, Korah was right! God declared the entire nation of Israel to be a nation of priests in the book of Exodus.

Jude notes that there were some within the early Church who had rejected the authority of the Bishops and Priests, and he links their error directly to that of Korah and his followers who rebelled against God and the authority of the leaders He had placed over His people, Israel.

Today, there are Christians who refuse to accept the authority of the Catholic Church and the Bishops who have been established as its leaders. They believe that the “priesthood of all believers” replaces the ministerial priesthood in Christ’s church, and they reject the episcopate completely. The unfortunate incidents of the 15th century began in “protest” and rebellion against authority – not true reform, and that same rebellious spirit continues to proclaim a message that promotes denominational division.

Korah and Luther make for an interesting comparision. Luther himself understood the story of Korah well, but did not understand how his rebellion applied to the story. From Luther’s Sermons on the Epistle of St. Jude:

“And perish in Korah’s rebellion.

In Num. 16:1 ff. we read about Korah’s rebellion and how he, together with his company, perished. Moses had been summoned and called by God to lead the people out of Egypt, and his brother Aaron had been appointed chief priest by God. Now Korah belonged to the same family and their circle of friends. He, too, wanted to be prominent and to be singled out. He attached to himself 250 of the best and foremost men and stirred up such a rebellion and uproar that Moses and Aaron had to flee. Moses fell on his face and prayed God not to respect their offering. He ordered the congregation to separate themselves from them and said (Num. 16:28 ff.): “ ‘Hereby you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they are visited by the fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth, and swallows them up, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.’ And as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split asunder; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men that belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol.” And the fire consumed the other 250 men who had sided with him.
Jude now applies this example to these revilers who accuse us of stirring up rebellion when we preach against them, even though they themselves are really responsible for all the misery. For Christ is our Aaron and our Chief Priest. We should let Him alone reign. But the pope and the bishops refused to tolerate this. They set themselves up. They want to rule by force, and they rebelled against Christ. God punished them, and the earth swallowed and covered them, so that they are submerged and swallowed in worldly life and pleasure and are nothing but world pure and simple.” Sermons on the Epistle of St. Jude, Chapter One, Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 30: The Catholic Epistles. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 30, pp. 208–209). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

Of course, even in a sermon about the Epistle of Jude, Luther could not pass up the opportunity to condemn the Pope and his bishops. Rather than seeing himself as Korah, who had rebelled against rightful authority.

How many Korah’s did Luther have to deal with in his own time?

God Bless You Randy, Topper

 

[Tomyris]

I’m wondering if the Catholics on this thread are willing to forgive Martin Luther for all the harm they believe he did the church.

I think the thread is a little more than a little one-sided. I thank God for the good work that Martin Luther did, for his courage, for his magnificent insights into Scripture, for his leadership, the excellence of his thought and the wisdom and piety he did display.

He was a blockhead, but he was God’s blockhead, simul justus et peccator, something that I think some people cannot accept or understand.

He was a great man. I’m not Lutheran and my theology doesn’t follow his, stemming more out of Geneva than the Wartburg, but the world is far better off for him having lived than if he had not. God in His providence and wisdom brought Martin Luther when he did and made him his instrument. Would that God would use each of us as well as he used Martin Luther, who should be praised and blessed. He loved God more than all other things with a passion we should desire.

I’ve heard that some of his songs have been sung at Catholic Masses. If you were at a Mass that had one of his songs in the service, would you walk out? That would suggest to me that you have allowed bitterness to take root, if you would.

 

[MaryT777]

I’m wondering if the Catholics on this thread are willing to forgive Martin Luther for all the harm they believe he did the church.

I think the thread is a little more than a little one-sided. I thank God for the good work that Martin Luther did, for his courage, for his magnificent insights into Scripture, for his leadership, the excellence of his thought and the wisdom and piety he did display.

He was a blockhead, but he was God’s blockhead, simul justus et peccator, something that I think some people cannot accept or understand.

He was a great man. I’m not Lutheran and my theology doesn’t follow his, stemming more out of Geneva than the Wartburg, but the world is far better off for him having lived than if he had not. God in His providence and wisdom brought Martin Luther when he did and made him his instrument. Would that God would use each of us as well as he used Martin Luther, who should be praised and blessed. He loved God more than all other things with a passion we should desire.

I personally feel sorry for Lutherfor he obviously had severe scrupulosity and mental health issues which very well may decrease his culpability for his actions.

Why should someone be praised that had such a foul mouth without showing some signs of repentance? The Church had no choice but to excommunicate him.

Like all of us he could have done things in a better way but we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Maybe the question goes both ways. Are the Lutherans going to forgive our Popes for being AntiChrist? This is still of course in their confessions to this day.

Mary.

 

[Tomyris]

I personally feel sorry for Lutherfor he obviously had severe scrupulosity and mental health issues which very well may decrease his culpability for his actions.

Why should someone be praised that had such a foul mouth without showing some signs of repentance? The Church had no choice but to excommunicate him.

Like all of us he could have done things in a better way but we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Mary.

Mary.

Well, Pope Benedict praised him for some of his insights. I believe Jon referenced that earlier on this thread. I find your sentiments extremely one-sided - you need a more balanced view of Luther than you would get from some of the posters on this thread who are simply slandering him in their one-sided presentation, which is not only a false witness against a brother, but slander is diabolos (devil) in Greek.

He was just before God AND a sinner. Some of his theological insights are great, regardless of his foul mouth at other times.

I named some of the reasons he should be praised. If you cannot see the good in him you have been swallowing too much anti-Luther propaganda.

 

[MaryT777]

Well, Pope Benedict praised him for some of his insights. I believe Jon referenced that earlier on this thread. I find your sentiments extremely one-sided - you need a more balanced view of Luther than you would get from some of the posters on this thread who are simply slandering him in their one-sided presentation, which is not only a false witness against a brother, but slander is diabolos (devil) in Greek.

He was just before God AND a sinner. Some of his theological insights are great, regardless of his foul mouth at other times.

I named some of the reasons he should be praised. If you cannot see the good in him you have been swallowing too much anti-Luther propaganda.

Might want to read the Lutheran Confessions. Pope Benedict according to the current Lutheran confessions sits in the office of the Anti Christ so how could you possibly trust what he says?

Mary.

 

[Abu]

Tomyris #902
I’m wondering if the Catholics on this thread are willing to forgive Martin Luther for all the harm they believe he did the church.

Forgiveness is always dependant on sorrow, repentance and retraction, which are conspicuously absent in Luther, and judgment is by God. What everyone can and should do is what Christ Himself commanded: to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

the world is far better off for him having lived than if he had not.

Christ has established His Church on St Peter, and has spoken – failing to listen is characteristic of the selfists of which Luther is a paragon. So there is nothing that can be faithfully cited to support the mirage that Luther made the world “far better off”.

Christ Himself:
“If he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17)

Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T.

There was nothing “reformed” by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies. An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 – exposed and corrected the same year by the great *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.”

The tragedy of the scattering is the thousands of sects today all led by those who feel they know better than Christ and His Magisterium.

 

[Tomyris]

Forgiveness is always dependant on sorrow, repentance and retraction, which are conspicuously absent in Luther, and judgment is by God.

Not true, thank God. If it were true none of us would ever be forgiven. Forgiveness is by grace.

Apparently you are gifted to look into Luther’s heart and judge him.

With the measure you judge him, you will be measured. Can you stand the test? have you been sufficiently sorry, repentant and retracting your sins, that you know you are forgiven? Are you sure?

What everyone can and should do is what Christ Himself commanded: to judge actions, speech, writing against truth /

Writing against truth? I think you meant something else.

and in this way we can help others by offering truth.
Christ has established His Church on St Peter,

No, on the confession of faith that he spoke. "By grace have you been saved through faith - not through Peter. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Not without Peter.

and has spoken – failing to listen is characteristic of the selfists of which Luther is a paragon. So there is nothing that can be faithfully cited to support the mirage that Luther made the world “far better off”.

It’s not a mirage. Do you reject God’s provident care of His people?

Christ Himself:
“If he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17)

How quick you are with the law.

Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T.

What an oversimplification!

There was nothing “reformed” by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies.

Opinion. Apparently you are not acquainted with his writings enough to have an informed opinion. I think probably you have just listened to the popular one sided-Catholic propaganda about him.

An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 – exposed and corrected the same year by the great *Casti Connubii *

of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.”

The tragedy of the scattering is the thousands of sects today all led by those who feel they know better than Christ and His Magisterium.
Do you know they feel they know better? What an attitude! What contempt for those the Church calls ‘separated brethren’!

 

[KathleenGee]

Well one fellow seeing himself as having it all to change the books of Scripture when in fact it took most knowledgeable Spirit filled leaders in the Church years to discern which were mean for public revelation…yes…Luther did seem to overstep himself.

 

[Abu]

Tomyris #907
To the reality that Forgiveness is always dependant on sorrow, repentance and retraction, which are conspicuously absent in Luther, and judgment is by God.

Tomyris replied: Not true, thank God. If it were true none of us would ever be forgiven. Forgiveness is by grace

Such a grave error can come only from the gravely misled, of whom Luther himself was one, and such a refusal to heed Christ’s Catholic Church is what causes the error.

As the illustrious *Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine *emphasises:
“Contrition is the true sorrow for sin which we conceive for having offended God by sin….Contrition, of its very nature, implies detestation of sin and a firm purpose of amendment… Contrition is the first and most necessary condition for the forgiveness of sin. God will not pardon us any sin, great or small, unless we are sorry for it.” [Archbishop Michael Sheehan / Fr Peter Joseph, 2001, The Saint Austin Press, p 546].

Everyone who rejects the teaching of Christ’s own Church needs to ask themselves how they can know better than Christ. That is what may enable them to seek, and to find, the truths of faith and morals.

 

[Magdalena59]

I’m wondering if the Catholics on this thread are willing to forgive Martin Luther for all the harm they believe he did the church.

I think the thread is a little more than a little one-sided. I thank God for the good work that Martin Luther did, for his courage, for his magnificent insights into Scripture, for his leadership, the excellence of his thought and the wisdom and piety he did display.

He was a blockhead, but he was God’s blockhead, simul justus et peccator, something that I think some people cannot accept or understand.

He was a great man. I’m not Lutheran and my theology doesn’t follow his, stemming more out of Geneva than the Wartburg, but the world is far better off for him having lived than if he had not. God in His providence and wisdom brought Martin Luther when he did and made him his instrument. Would that God would use each of us as well as he used Martin Luther, who should be praised and blessed. He loved God more than all other things with a passion we should desire.

I’ve heard that some of his songs have been sung at Catholic Masses. If you were at a Mass that had one of his songs in the service, would you walk out? That would suggest to me that you have allowed bitterness to take root, if you would.

Our Lord requires us as Christians to forgive. I do not have a problem with forgiving him. I was wondering myself the other day how many people think to pray for the repose of his soul.

That being said, I used to think he was great, when I was a protestant but I realized when studying his life and work that he was very rebellious and vengeful and I don’t believe that God gave him any authority to change Church teaching, nor do I believe he had great insight into scripture. If he did everyone would still be following his teachings. His life and teachings were one of the things that brought me back to the Catholic Church.

He started something that unfortunately continues on and on, as one priest called it, a spirit of protesting that is spinning out of control.

The world is much more confused because of him and his rebellion led to a lot of problems we see today.

Marriage is no longer considered a sacrament in protestant churches because Luther felt the state should handle it and now here we are redefining it by the states.

Christians lack unity and disagree on true salvation issues. Authority is sought but people aren’t sure anymore where to go to find answers to their biblical questions.

I have only heard one his songs sung at Mass and only once, unless you count Away in a Manger and there is controversy over whether he really wrote that song.

If they sang one of his songs I wouldn’t sing along but I wouldn’t walk out and I don’t believe any other Catholic here would either and the reason for that is not because they would be okay with the song but because of a reason that is different in Catholic churches. The presence of Christ in a very real and special way. Mass is not about the songs or the priest. It is about Jesus Christ. The Mass is a prayer and you would be walking out on Our Lord.

God bless.

 

[Magdalena59]

"By grace have you been saved through faith - not through Peter. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. !

Peter is the one Christ said he was founding his church on and it has continued ever since.

You are picking that one Bible verse that is used many times but there are many more Bible verses that need to be listened to also.

Jesus also commanded us to obey him if we love him. John 14:15
The only thing Paul says that counts is faith working through love Galatians 5:6
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. 1 Timothy 3:15.

A whole book more.

What an oversimplification! !

In regards to him removing books, he did and not only did Luther remove books from the Bible, he also wanted more to be removed, especially the book of James because it too did not fit into his theology.
He also added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28 to fit his theology.

Apparently you are not acquainted with his writings enough to have an informed opinion. I think probably you have just listened to the popular one sided-Catholic propaganda about him.
!

There are certain truths about Martin Luther that sometimes are hard to hear. It was hard for me also as a protestant but there were things in his life and works that were rebellious. He had very strict parents that would beat him severely and left him feeling very sinful and bad about himself and his theology was a way to remove that weight and guilt off of himself that his parents had laid on him.

We do as Christians have love for our separated brethren so much that we also want them to know the fullness of truth that we found and know in Christ’s Church.

God bless.

 

[Thorolfr]

I think the thread is a little more than a little one-sided. I thank God for the good work that Martin Luther did, for his courage, for his magnificent insights into Scripture, for his leadership, the excellence of his thought and the wisdom and piety he did display.

He was a blockhead, but he was God’s blockhead, simul justus et peccator, something that I think some people cannot accept or understand.

He was a great man. I’m not Lutheran and my theology doesn’t follow his, stemming more out of Geneva than the Wartburg, but the world is far better off for him having lived than if he had not. God in His providence and wisdom brought Martin Luther when he did and made him his instrument. Would that God would use each of us as well as he used Martin Luther, who should be praised and blessed. He loved God more than all other things with a passion we should desire.

I joined a Lutheran church only a few years ago without actually knowing a lot about Luther but have come to like him quite a lot and very much admire his courage and his insights. After trying to wade through a volume of selected writings by Thomas Aquinas which put me to sleep, reading Luther is a pleasure. He writes in an unvarnished, down-to-earth and easy to read style which is almost never boring. I just got a copy of Luther’s Works, Volume 36 which has such interesting titles as The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, The Misuse of the Mass, The Abomination of the Secret Mass, and The Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ - Against the Fanatics. It’s turning out to be a very good read.

 

[MaryT777]

Forgiveness is always dependant on sorrow, repentance and retraction, which are conspicuously absent in Luther, and judgment is by God. What everyone can and should do is what Christ Himself commanded: to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.
Christ has established His Church on St Peter, and has spoken – failing to listen is characteristic of the selfists of which Luther is a paragon. So there is nothing that can be faithfully cited to support the mirage that Luther made the world “far better off”.

Christ Himself:
“If he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17)

Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T.

There was nothing “reformed” by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies. An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 – exposed and corrected the same year by the great *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.”

The tragedy of the scattering is the thousands of sects today all led by those who feel they know better than Christ and His Magisterium.

 

[JonNC]

Might want to read the Lutheran Confessions. Pope Benedict according to the current Lutheran confessions sits in the office of the Anti Christ so how could you possibly trust what he says?

Mary.

Actually, Mary, it seems that it is a few Catholics on this forum who don’t trust Pope Benedict, when it comes to Luther.

I think you will find that, among Lutherans, Pope Emeritus Benedict is held in very high regard, regardless of our doctrinal disagreements. Similarly, many Lutherans hold Billy Graham in high regard, even though we disagree with him.

But then, under Unam sanctam, I guess it really doesn’t matter since all of us not in communion with the Pope, regardless of grace, regardless of baptism, regardless of Christ, or faith or works, are condemned.

Jon

 

[TertiumQuid]

Interestingly, TQ (James Swan) wrote a very compelling article ‘proving’ that Luther believed that Catholics are NOT Christians. It is a very convincing article and quotes Luther at great length, portraying Luther’s beliefs about Catholics as not being Christians as being very much in also in support of Swan’s, which are detailed very clearly in the last paragraph of the article.

Mr. Topper, While I appreciate the kind words, this is not an accurate description of the article in question. When Luther spoke of the Catholic Church, he had something much different in mind than most people do today. Luther made a sharp distinction between the Church and the Papacy. That is, Luther often denied that those who defended the papacy were “Christians.”

Also, FWIW, I received an e-mail yesterday from Catholic Answers saying that I am “a valuable friend of Catholic Answers.” I must admit, that did warm my heart.

P.S. here’s a few book recommendation for you:

The Reformation in Historical Thought “Analyzes the way each generation of historians have portrayed the Protestant Reformation and discusses how personal motivations, contemporary social values, and historical developments shaped each response” (Google link)

Popular Culture and Popular Movements in Reformation Germany. See particularity Chapter 14: “Luther Myth: a Popular Historiography of the Reformer” and Chapter 15: “Incombustible Luther: the Image of the Reformer in Early Modern Germany.”

And since you’re so fond of Eck, you should really have a copy of this book. I don’t recall how much I paid for mine a few years ago, but you can probably find a copy under $100.

Regards,
" a valuable friend of Catholic Answers"

 

[MaryT777]

Actually, Mary, it seems that it is a few Catholics on this forum who don’t trust Pope Benedict, when it comes to Luther.

I think you will find that, among Lutherans, Pope Emeritus Benedict is held in very high regard, regardless of our doctrinal disagreements. Similarly, many Lutherans hold Billy Graham in high regard, even though we disagree with him.

But then, under Unam sanctam, I guess it really doesn’t matter since all of us not in communion with the Pope, regardless of grace, regardless of baptism, regardless of Christ, or faith or works, are condemned.

Jon

I certainly trust Pope Benedict when it comes to Luther; my comment is to my opinion that it’s difficult to see any respect back from the Lutherans in the regard to their thought he sits in the seat of the Anti Christ. That’s simply not respectful to me.

Unam Sanctam would be an interesting thread for another topic.

Mary

 

[Thorolfr]

Why should someone be praised that had such a foul mouth without showing some signs of repentance? The Church had no choice but to excommunicate him.

I think that Luther’s salty language is kind of refreshing

 

[MaryT777]

I think that Luther’s salty language is kind of refreshing

This most certainly is one way to look at “it”…Hmmmm…
Mary.

 

[KathleenGee]

From my life experience among Lutherans, I think they are alot more moderate than Luther.

 

[Abu]

JonNC #914
But then, under Unam sanctam, I guess it really doesn’t matter since all of us not in communion with the Pope, regardless of grace, regardless of baptism, regardless of Christ, or faith or works, are condemned.

False.

Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council of AD 1215, Unam Sanctam, the Papal Bull of Pope Boniface VIII, 1302, and Pope Eugene IV’s Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, all refer to those who have rejected the true gospel, Pope Eugene IV makes the statement about the pagans, Jews, etc… so this classifies them like the Arians, Monophysites, Ebionites, who heard the message of Christ’s gospel. It is not talking about those who have not heard the gospel. The ones that these decrees are considering are those that have heard the message. If they had heard the message and obstinately stay outside the Church, they cannot be saved. Notice that in this decree, just like the first two mentioned, the decree does not say, “Well, if those pagans and Jews, etc. have never heard of the gospel, they cannot be saved.” This is fully consistent with what the Church teaches now.

From the Catechism of St. Pius X on the Ninth Article of the Creed:
"29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation."