Looking Back at what the Reformation has Done

[pablope]

Actually, Mary, it seems that it is a few Catholics on this forum who don’t trust Pope Benedict, when it comes to Luther.

I think you will find that, among Lutherans, Pope Emeritus Benedict is held in very high regard, regardless of our doctrinal disagreements.

 

[pablope]

I’m wondering if the Catholics on this thread are willing to forgive Martin Luther for all the harm they believe he did the church.

Did Luther repent of the harm he did to the Church?

Or do you think he actually did no harm and it was the all the fault of the Catholic Church?

I think the thread is a little more than a little one-sided. I thank God for the good work that Martin Luther did, for his courage, for his magnificent insights into Scripture, for his leadership, the excellence of his thought and the wisdom and piety he did display.

 

[JonNC]

I certainly trust Pope Benedict when it comes to Luther; my comment is to my opinion that it’s difficult to see any respect back from the Lutherans in the regard to their thought he sits in the seat of the Anti Christ. That’s simply not respectful to me.

Unam Sanctam would be an interesting thread for another topic.

Mary

Hi Mary,

Every time the Lutheran teaching regarding this issue, the mention of *Unam sanctam * is germane to the thread. The two are directly related.

But that said, the Lutherans on the forum, to a person, since I have been here, have been very respectful of not only Pope Benedict, but also his predecessors. If you want to see disrespect of Pope Benedict, take a look at what certain “Catholics” say about him, calling him a heretic, and worse. One relatively well known site blasts headlines such as, “The Heresies of Anti-Pope Francis, Benedict XVI, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, and John XXIII – Antipopes of the Vatican II Counter Church.”

There’s a lot of historic animosity between our traditions within the Church. What I find remarkable is the fact that the leadership seems to be so far ahead of the apologists in overcoming them.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Hi Mary,

Every time the Lutheran teaching regarding this issue, the mention of *Unam sanctam * is germane to the thread. The two are directly related.

But that said, the Lutherans on the forum, to a person, since I have been here, have been very respectful of not only Pope Benedict, but also his predecessors. If you want to see disrespect of Pope Benedict, take a look at what certain “Catholics” say about him, calling him a heretic, and worse. One relatively well known site blasts headlines such as, “The Heresies of Anti-Pope Francis, Benedict XVI, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, and John XXIII – Antipopes of the Vatican II Counter Church.”

There’s a lot of historic animosity between our traditions within the Church. What I find remarkable is the fact that the leadership seems to be so far ahead of the apologists in overcoming them.

Jon

I could also post posts from McCain blasting Benedict for granting an indulgence and other issues. I could post Lutheran Pastors fed up with the LCMS, I could post posters considering leaving the LCMS and those that have but that is cheap and leads to lousy conversation so I don’t go there. We could do that for days on end heaping up Lutherans complaining about Lutherans and Catholics that don’t agree with the Church. We know that exists in both denominations.

You never addressed my point. How can I have a real thought that the Lutherans like/respect Pope Benedict when he sits in the seat of the AntiChrist and claims universal jurisdiction all things you disagree with and have posted here? It seems hypocritical and self serving to me. The only reason Pope Benedict it seems has found favor among the Lutherans is his comments on Luther that have been positive at points not anything doctrinal.

So what?

We Lutherans LIKE Pope Benedict. Why? Because he said something “nice” about Luther.
However, our confessions still state he sits in the seat of the anti Christ. I find it nauseating quite frankly. That is MY opinion and not that of the Church.

Mary.

 

[JonNC]

False.

Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council of AD 1215, Unam Sanctam, the Papal Bull of Pope Boniface VIII, 1302, and Pope Eugene IV’s Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, all refer to those who have rejected the true gospel, Pope Eugene IV makes the statement about the pagans, Jews, etc… so this classifies them like the Arians, Monophysites, Ebionites, who heard the message of Christ’s gospel. It is not talking about those who have not heard the gospel. The ones that these decrees are considering are those that have heard the message. If they had heard the message and obstinately stay outside the Church, they cannot be saved. Notice that in this decree, just like the first two mentioned, the decree does not say, “Well, if those pagans and Jews, etc. have never heard of the gospel, they cannot be saved.” This is fully consistent with what the Church teaches now.

From the Catechism of St. Pius X on the Ninth Article of the Creed:
"29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation."

Unam sanctam makes no such provisions. It says clearly, and without qualification: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

It is absolutely necessary for salvation! How many times I have seen her, and read “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”.

Abu, why should I believe any subsequent writing on the issue?
(Please note: this is the stance a few Catholics here have taken about the Lutheran charge against the papacy. Regardless of what Lutherans here say or write, a small few here refuse to believe what our subsequent writings say.)

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Unam sanctam makes no such provisions. It says clearly, and without qualification: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

It is absolutely necessary for salvation! How many times I have seen her, and read “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”.

Abu, why should I believe any subsequent writing on the issue?

Jon

Jon,

Why would you possible care anyway? Your confessions claim the Pope is the AntiChrist and further “progress” it’s the office not the Pope himself. Am I really to believe that any Lutherans cried in their German Beers over Unam Sanctam?

Plus you know the full understanding Jon of this document (Unum Sactam) and what it means and pertained to then and now. You can’t fool us. LOL

 

[Topper17]

Hi Mary,

I personally feel sorry for Lutherfor he obviously had severe scrupulosity and mental health issues which very well may decrease his culpability for his actions.

Why should someone be praised that had such a foul mouth without showing some signs of repentance? The Church had no choice but to excommunicate him.

Like all of us he could have done things in a better way but we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Maybe the question goes both ways. Are the Lutherans going to forgive our Popes for being AntiChrist? This is still of course in their confessions to this day.

As usual Mary, you hit the nail on the head. As an example of failure to show repentence, remember that Luther (quoting Scripture furiously) recommended that the peasants be ‘slaughtered without mercy’. Only a few months after majority of the 100,000 had been slaughtered, but not all while the carnage continued, Luther bragged that he was responsible for their deaths. There was no repentence. Repentence was not exactly Luther’s ‘strong suit’. (I love a good understatement).

All this talk about the ‘respect’ for the Popes rings extremely hollow. It comes from the perspective of the ‘fact’ that the pope is the antichrist, as is expressed VERY CLEARLY in the Lutheran Confessions.

Nobody knows who the next Bishop of Rome will be, but ‘some people’ are absolutely certain that that man will be the antichrist. Remember that the INTENT of the authors of the Confessions were extremely clear as to what they meant.

Mary, you should not be offended by the accusation that the Pope is the antichrist because ANYBODY who can read Scripture for themselves would see that it is obvious.

God Bless You Mary, Topper

 

[JonNC]

=MaryT777;12795514]Jon,

Why would you possible care anyway? Your confessions claim the Pope is the AntiChrist and further “progress” it’s the office not the Pope himself. Am I really to believe that any Lutherans cried in their German Beers over Unam Sanctam?

This is exactly the point, Mary. Lutherans and Catholics who are looking for further unity have long-since determined that either crying in our respective beer, or continuing the pointed finger of accusation doesn’t help.

Plus you know the full understanding Jon of this document and what it means and pertained to then and now. You can’t fool us. LOL

Of course I do, Mary. I’ve read how the understanding is positively reformulated. Why is it that you do not accept what we tell you about our writings on the subject of the papacy?

Here’s some recent examples from this thread.

Pablope: “So…Benedict XVI was not being the anti Christ in this instance?”

No Lutheran here has ever said he was being the Anti-Christ. In fact, we’ve been clear that it is not a personal charge, but only regarding certain teachings of the office. Pablope knows this, just like I know the actual interpretation of* Unam sanctam*.

You said: “Might want to read the Lutheran Confessions. Pope Benedict according to the current Lutheran confessions sits in the office of the Anti Christ so how could you possibly trust what he says?”

The level of doctrinal agreement between us is so substantial, that even for those few Lutherans who don’t want to trust what he says, they don’t have a choice. Further, there are so many things he has said, and not just about Luther, but more importantly about the faith, some of them specifically to Lutherans, some of them in general, that are so good, why on Earth would we not trust him? But further, after hearing what Lutherans here have said about him, why would you even state such a non sequitur?

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Hi Mary,

As usual Mary, you hit the nail on the head. As an example of failure to show repentence, remember that Luther (quoting Scripture furiously) recommended that the peasants be ‘slaughtered without mercy’. Only a few months after majority of the 100,000 had been slaughtered, but not all while the carnage continued, Luther bragged that he was responsible for their deaths. There was no repentence. Repentence was not exactly Luther’s ‘strong suit’. (I love a good understatement).

All this talk about the ‘respect’ for the Popes rings extremely hollow. It comes from the perspective of the ‘fact’ that the pope is the antichrist, as is expressed VERY CLEARLY in the Lutheran Confessions.

Nobody knows who the next Bishop of Rome will be, but ‘some people’ are absolutely certain that that man will be the antichrist. Remember that the INTENT of the authors of the Confessions were extremely clear as to what they meant.

Mary, you should not be offended by the accusation that the Pope is the antichrist because ANYBODY who can read Scripture for themselves would see that it is obvious.

God Bless You Mary, Topper

No, I’m not offended in the full sense of the word about the Lutheran teaching that the Pope/ office is AntiChrist. There are of course other denoms that preach and teach that as well.

Scriptures don’t support that; it’s a man made doctrine.

I do however hold issue that whenever the issue arises the Unam Sanctam is mentiond and I can just see Luther burning up any such thought and not giving one whit about it. Also as noted above the “we like and respect Pope Benedict because he said nice things about Luther” rings very very shallow to me

God bless you as well, Topper.
Mary.

.

 

[JonNC]

Nobody knows who the next Bishop of Rome will be, but ‘some people’ are absolutely certain that that man will be the antichrist. Remember that the INTENT of the authors of the Confessions were extremely clear as to what they meant.

And the INTENT of Pope Boniface was clear.

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Not grace, not Christ, not repentance, not faith, not baptism, not the sacraments, but only being subject to the pope matters.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

This is exactly the point, Mary. Lutherans and Catholics who are looking for further unity have long-since determined that either crying in our respective beer, or continuing the pointed finger of accusation doesn’t help.

Of course I do, Mary. I’ve read how the understanding is positively reformulated. Why is it that you do not accept what we tell you about our writings on the subject of the papacy?

Here’s some recent examples from this thread.

Pablope: “So…Benedict XVI was not being the anti Christ in this instance?”

No Lutheran here has ever said he was being the Anti-Christ. In fact, we’ve been clear that it is not a personal charge, but only regarding certain teachings of the office. Pablope knows this, just like I know the actual interpretation of* Unam sanctam*.

You said: “Might want to read the Lutheran Confessions. Pope Benedict according to the current Lutheran confessions sits in the office of the Anti Christ so how could you possibly trust what he says?”

The level of doctrinal agreement between us is so substantial, that even for those few Lutherans who don’t want to trust what he says, they don’t have a choice. Further, there are so many things he has said, and not just about Luther, but more importantly about the faith, some of them specifically to Lutherans, some of them in general, that are so good, why on Earth would we not trust him? But further, after hearing what Lutherans here have said about him, why would you even state such a non sequitur?

Jon

Jon what you say the writings mean and what the official documents say are different.
This is from the official LCMS site.

Of the Antichrist
43.As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

 

[pablope]

Here’s some recent examples from this thread.

Pablope: “So…Benedict XVI was not being the anti Christ in this instance?”

No Lutheran here has ever said he was being the Anti-Christ. In fact, we’ve been clear that it is not a personal charge, but only regarding certain teachings of the office. Pablope knows this, just like I know the actual interpretation of* Unam sanctam*.

Jon

Sure… My question was related to reading your confessions and what you have state here numerous times…that I see the two views…a Jekyll and Hyde view…and as you stated…“certain teachings of the office.”

Hence…Benedict XVI’s statement of Luther, is not anti Christ because you agree with it…and is positive.

But when the Pope would exercise or say something you do not agree with…he is Anti-Christ…as in exercising universal jurisdiction…

And the single, isolated statement of Unam Sanctam…would apparently fall under the Anti-Christ banner…correct?

And just wondering…would the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption fall under the banner of Anti-Christ teachings?

 

[pablope]

Jon what you say the writings mean and what the official documents say are different.
This is from the official LCMS site.

Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

Yes…my observation as well.

 

[Tomyris]

I really believe the path to reconciliation is forgiveness. Don’t you pray the Lord’s prayer at Mass? Do you mean it when you say "

And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;

In Matthew 6:14 we read

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If you do not forgive Martin Luther, will God forgive YOUR sins? You feel he has wronged you and your church. Forgive him. This bitterness and anger is the work of the devil, this division between brothers and sisters in Christ. It is easy to forgive someone who has not really hurt or wronged you, but real forgiveness is unwarranted and is given to someone who does not deserve it. It is unjustified. It is without anything on the part of the one you are forgiving. They DON’T deserve it, they are not necessarily contrite or right or penitent or ANYTHING that would merit forgiveness. That is the POINT. We have been forgiven, we are to go and do likewise and forgive those it is most difficult for us to forgive. For some of you that is Martin Luther.

It is GOOD NEWS we are concerned with. It is one thing to say that God justifies the righteous and condemns the wicked, but that is not good news for the wicked! Rather Jesus came to SAVE sinners, not the righteous. Forgiveness is a unilateral act. We are to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, willingly lay down our lives for others - and not because we have measured them and found them worthy.

I found this just now

In Erfurt Benedict presents Luther as a model for Catholics
In the place where Martin Luther used to speak against the Popes, Benedict XVI, the first German Pope since the Protestant Revolution, deliberately paid homage to that heresiarch. Before the trip, he expressed his desire to link his papal visit to Germany to the 500th anniversary of Protestantism. He also conveyed his wish to meet at greater length with the heads of the so-called Lutheran Church. To fulfill these desires the Lutherans offered him the Augustinian Monastery in Erfurt, where Luther studied, became priest and professor of theology before leaving to split the Church and Europe.

Erfurt, where the meeting took place on September 23, 2011, and its neighboring city Wittenberg, where Luther posted his 95 theses, are considered the very heartland of Protestantism. It was there that Pope Ratzinger praised Luther’s quest for God as the “deep passion and driving force of his whole life.”

Moreover, Benedict considered Luther as a model to find God: “The question: What is God’s position towards me, where do I stand before God? This burning question of Martin Luther must once more, doubtless in a new form, become our question too. In my view, this is the first summons we should attend to in our encounter with Martin Luther.”

Further on in his speech, Ratzinger presented the heresiarch as a model for spirituality: “Luther’s thinking, his whole spirituality, was thoroughly Christocentric: ‘What promotes Christ’s cause’ was for Luther the decisive hermeneutical criterion for the exegesis of sacred Scripture. This presupposes, however, that Christ is at the heart of our spirituality and that love for him, living in communion with him, is what guides our life.”

Such were the concessions Benedict XVI made to Luther and Protestantism, attempting to throw into oblivion the unforgettable condemnations of the Catholic Church against both.

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A438-Erfurt.html

 

[Topper17]

Hi Ab,

Forgiveness is always dependant on sorrow, repentance and retraction, which are conspicuously absent in Luther, and judgment is by God. What everyone can and should do is what Christ Himself commanded: to judge actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Luther taught that the individual should be allowed to judge the teachings of their church, and in fact, should even be allowed to judge the teachings of Ecumenical Councils. Well, what goes around comes around. We have every right to judge Luther’s teachings and also his actions. He established the precident of the judgment of the individual.

Christ has established His Church on St Peter, and has spoken – failing to listen is characteristic of the selfists of which Luther is a paragon. So there is nothing that can be faithfully cited to support the mirage that Luther made the world “far better off”.

How many tens of millions of people died as a direct or indirect result of the religious conflict that Luther began? I wonder if they considered the world to be ‘far better off”?

Christ Himself:
“If he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17)

Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T.

This is not to mention Luther’s blasphemous remarks about the 4 books of the NT that he ‘downgraded’ to the ‘status’ of ‘not to be used for doctrine’. The man took A LOT of authority onto his own shoulders. Rather than elevating Scripture, he placed it UNDER His own personal judgment.

There was nothing “reformed” by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies. An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 – exposed and corrected the same year by the great *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.”

The tragedy of the scattering is the thousands of sects today all led by those who feel they know better than Christ and His Magisterium.

The example of the Lambeth Conference and the capitulation of virtually ALL of Protestantism on the matter of contraception is proof positive that Protestantism simply cannot hold the line on a matter of faith or morals. Either Protestantism was teaching correctly on the issue before 1930 or there are now. Either way, they have shown that they cannot be relied upon to teach correctly. The Church will NEVER teach that contraception is allowable. It and only it is consistant. The Holy Spirit precludes the Church from officially teaching error on a matter of faith or morals. Of course, Protestants can object to this or that Catholic Teaching, but ONLY be their use of their personal judgment, which of course Luther ‘obtained’ for them. It has NOT worked out all that well.

I consider the term “Reformation” to be a misnomer. That term carries a positive connotation, which I don’t think is deserved. I prefer ‘Revolt’ or ‘Deformation’, which of course is probably seen as ‘disrespectful’, unlike depicting the pope as the antichrist, which is (somehow) not.

God Bless You Ab, Topper

 

[Tomyris]

And look at THIS (I, too, can cut and paste:thumbsup

POPE PRAISES LUTHER IN AN APPEAL FOR UNITY ON PROTEST ANNIVERSARY
By HENRY KAMM, Special to the New York Times
Published: November 6, 1983

ROME, Nov. 5— Pope John Paul II, in a letter issued today, praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’

His comments were contained in a letter to the president of the Pontifical Secretariat for the Union of Christians, Johannes Cardinal Willebrands, to mark the anniversary of Martin Luther, whose 500th birthday will be celebrated next Thursday. The text of the letter was made public by the Vatican,

In a related development, it was announced that Pope John Paul would preach on Dec. 11 in a Lutheran church here. The announcement was made by Christoph Meyer, the dean of the church, the Evangelical Lutheran Christoph Church, which has served the resident German community for 168 years. The service will be held in German, and the Pope will preach in the language of Martin Luther.

The letter from the Pope to Cardinal Willebrands, was dated Oct. 31, 1983, the anniversary of the date in 1517 when Luther nailed his 95 theses on the door of the castle church of Wittenberg, Germany, giving birth to the Protestant Reformation. The Pope wrote the letter to Cardinal Willebrands, the Archbishop of Utrecht, in German.

The Pope referred to Luther as the theologian who ‘‘contributed in a substantial way to the radical change in the ecclesiastical and secular reality in the West.’’ He continued: ‘‘Our world still experiences his great impact on history.’’

The Pope noted with satisfaction that the Protestant churches had declared the anniversary year to be an occasion that should serve ‘‘a genuine ecumenical spirit’’ and said that he saw this as a ‘‘fraternal invitation’’ to a joint reflection on the history and inheritance of Luther.

Roman Catholic and Protestant studies have yielded a more balanced picture of Luther’s personality and the realities of the 16th century, the Pope continued, and shown that ‘‘the rupture in ecclesiastical unity cannot be reduced to the lack of comprehension by Catholic Church authorities or solely to Luther’s lack of understanding of true Catholicism, even if both factors played a role.’’

The Pope called for continued historical research, ‘‘that does not take sides, motivated only be the search for truth,’’ to provide ‘‘a true image’’ of Luther and the Reformation. ‘‘Guilt, wherever it exists, must be recognized, on whichever side it is found,’’ the Pope wrote. Continue Search for Unity

John Paul called on Cardinal Willebrands to continue the ecumenical dialogue in quest of restoration of Christian unity and offered a special prayer and blessing for this work.

‘‘The clarification of history that turns to the past and whose significance persists must go in equal steps with the dialogue of faith which we at present embark on to look for unity,’’ the Pope wrote.

The Pope said the anniversary year was ‘‘an occasion to meditate, in Christian truth and charity, on that event engraved in history that was the epoch of the Reformation.’’

‘‘It is time that we distance ourselves from historic events and assure that they are often better understood and evoked,’’ the Pope said. John Paul said Luther was a man of ‘‘profound religiousness’’ who was ‘‘driven by the examination of eternal salvation.’’ Papal Visit Arranged Last Year

nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html%between%

 

[Tomyris]

It’s pretty clear, isn’t it, that a lot of what is said here is out of step with the popes and with Christ? Some people would undo all the ecumenical efforts that are being done.

Like I said, forgiveness is the key. I must forgive those people, I find, if I am to find forgiveness. Which I have found.

 

[Tomyris]

Here’s more.

Pope calls for “mutual forgiveness between Catholics and Lutherans”

Ecumenism
ECUMENISM
In his address to the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity, Francis said “there are no lack of difficulties but we must not be afraid”

DOMENICO AGASSO JR
ROME

“Catholics and Lutherans can ask forgiveness for the harm they have caused one another and for their offenses committed in the sight of God,” Francis said during this morning’s audience with the delegation of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity.

The Pope’s meeting with Bishop Munib Younan, the Federation’s president and its secretary, Martin Junge, follows on from the “very cordial and pleasant meeting” which took place during the inaugural celebration of Francis ministry as the Bishop of Rome.

“It is with a sense of profound gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ that I think of the many advances made in relations between Lutherans and Catholics in these past decades, not only through theological dialogue, but also through fraternal cooperation in a variety of pastoral settings, and above all, in the commitment to progress in spiritual ecumenism. In a certain sense, this last area constitutes the soul of our journey towards full communion, and permits us even now a foretaste of its results, however imperfect. In the measure in which we draw closer to our Lord Jesus Christ in humility of spirit, we are certain to draw closer to one another. And, in the measure in which we ask the Lord for the gift of unity, we are sure that he will take us by the hand and be our guide,” Francis said.

“This year, as a result of a now fifty year old theological dialogue and with a view to the commemoration of the five-hundredth anniversary of the Reformation, the text of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity was published, with the significant title: From Conflict to Communion. Lutheran-Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017. I believe that it is truly important for everyone to confront in dialogue the historical reality of the Reformation, its consequences and the responses it elicited,” Francis continued.

“Catholics and Lutherans can ask forgiveness for the harm they have caused one another and for their offenses committed in the sight of God. Together we can rejoice in the longing for unity which the Lord has awakened in our hearts, and which makes us look with hope to the future.”

“I am certain,” Francis went on to say, “that we will continue our journey of dialogue and of communion, addressing fundamental questions as well as differences in the fields of anthropology and ethics. Certainly, there is no lack of difficulties, and none will lack in the future. They will continue to require patience, dialogue and mutual understanding. But we must not be afraid! We know well – as Benedict XVI often reminded us – that unity is not primarily the fruit of our labours, but the working of the Holy Spirit, to whom we must open our hearts in faith, so that he will lead us along the paths of reconciliation and communion.”

Finally, Francis quoted the Blessed John Paul II’s question: “How can we proclaim the Gospel of reconciliation without at the same time being committed to working for reconciliation between Christians?” (Ut Unum Sint, 98). “May the faithful and constant prayer of our communities sustain theological dialogue, the renewal of life and the conversion of hearts, so that, with the Triune God, we will be able to journey together toward the fulfilment of Jesus’ desire that all may be one,” Francis prayed.

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/cattolici-catolicos-catholics-luterani-lutherans-luteranos-28838/

 

[Tomyris]

I have a suspicion it would please the Lord more if the Catholics and Lutherans were asking forgiveness of each other than posting some of what has been posted.

That is what the Pope says, anyway.

 

[Magdalena59]

I have a suspicion it would please the Lord more if the Catholics and Lutherans were asking forgiveness of each other than posting some of what has been posted.

That is what the Pope says, anyway.

I answered some of your statements back in post 910.

I got the impression from the popes that what they were saying for Catholics is in regard of Luther’s drive to find the Lord and God’s love than for Catholics to follow his teachings. It appears they were saying we should seek for the Lord with all of our hearts and to recognize guilt where it exists.

I agree Catholics and Lutherans need to be striving for reconciliation and unity and as Pope Francis said in his speech, communion with each other.