Looking Back at what the Reformation has Done

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Hi Spina,

Long time - little see. It’s really good to see you here.

Hi Spina,

I think you are right. As we have learned, Luther was warned that his teaching on Sola Scriptura and the right of the individual to interpret was going to lead to doctrinal dissension and confusion.

(In regards to the Leipzig Debate of 1519) – “**Men of Eck’s conviction foresaw – rightly , as it turned out – **that once the individual conscience was granted freedom to seek its own definition of truth, Christian faith would become so fragmented that no consensus would be possible and that uncertainties inherent in any religion would then become part of the spiritual equipment of humankind.” **** Marius, pg. 186

In truth, Luther was warned by many, many Theologians that his teachings would lead to doctrinal fragmentation, which he himself experienced early in his reformation and from then until his death. Even after experiencing the results of his teaching, he could have turned back to the Church, but he didn’t.

The question is as to what Luther would have done ‘if he had known’, but maybe it is not all that hypothetical. In fact he DID know, not as much as we do now about the fracturing of Western Christendom, but he saw ENOUGH of it to be greatly distressed over it. And yet, he did not turn back. It seems that the question then becomes – Why not?

God Bless You Spina, It’s good to see you back here, Topper

To Jon post number 5
Hi Topper: It just seems to me that Luther was very much set in his ways. he appears to a very strong willed person with a rather large ego. it is true that Luther was not the only reformer as there were others before and during and afterwards. it also seems that Luther’s growing up in a rather harsh home and then being in a religious order that was also somewhat harsh appears to have formed him in how his thinking grew over time.

There does seem that Luther’s theology was influenced in large part by his scrupulosity he experienced and the struggle to overcome it. There was also the political influence from the princes of the time who used Luther to their own ends in weakening whatever power they thought the CC had over them. Without those princes who helped him I wonder if Luther would have succeeded.

When others like Calvin and Zwingli who had differing opinion and theology from Luther’s he attacked them in the same manor as he did the CC. While it is true that in the beginning Luther may have very well wanted just to reform the CC of abuses, in the end it seems that the more the CC disagreed and rejected Luther’s theology, the more Luther revolted and the more stubborn he became. Luther it seems was not going to recant nor concede anything, believing he was correct and the CC was wrong. The more Luther was attacked concerning his theology and interpretations of Scripture by the CC, the more vicious he became in his attacks against the CC and anyone else who disagreed with him.

I think that main reason as to why Luther was so successful was due to his having his tracts printed and published in German, more so than anyone else. In the end Luther breaking away from the teachings of the CC, and implementing his own interpretations of Scripture and his theology led to others breaking away and forming their own theology and interpretations which we see over the span of time develop into denominations each with their own interpretations of Scripture and theologies, which I think Luther would not have approved and would have argued as he did in his own time against any interpretation or theology that is different from his.
 
As with history, it’s a bit more complicated.

There were honest attempts at reconciliation early on - Luther was given save passage to several debates even though he was marked by the Church and Government for immediate murder for example.

But for Trent, Lutheran’s were invited only as observers.
I’m sorry but I couldn’t find that anywhere on the web. Could you provide a source please?
 
In any case the damage was done and I don’t know how there will ever be unity now. I pray more for the Orthodox reunion because the Protestants will never want to reunite.
 
I find attempts to picture Luther as the sole cause of the Reformation absurd and myopic. Would Leo X or his predecessors have acted any differently had they known what lay ahead? To be fair, that question, at least, must asked along with the one about Martin Luther.

I find Catholic attacks on Luther to be a little like trying to take the speck out of someone else’s eye while ignoring the log in their own. There is the old saying “if you point one finger at someone, you are pointing four back at yourself.”

I don’t really know how honest those attempts were - that is between those living then and God the Judge.

You can’t fault the Catholics on that one, given the idea that the bishops are the custodians of doctrine, and from a Catholic framework it might even have been considered generous to invite non-bishops to discuss theology at a council.
I don’t know if that idea is being properly understood or not, but may I suggest
orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils
specifically the discussion of “reception of the whole body of the Church”.
 
I’m sorry but I couldn’t find that anywhere on the web. Could you provide a source please?
Sure! Thanks for asking!

Luther was declared an outlaw by Holy Roman Emperor Charles V for heresy. The Edict of Worms subjugated Luther and his followers to immediate death and confiscation of their property by anyone.

Edict of Worms: cresourcei.org/creededictworms.html

The relevant portion:

*"For the crime of lèse majesté [high treason] and for very serious offense and indignation against the prince.

Confiscation and loss of body and belongings and all goods, fixed and movable, half of which will go to the Lord, and the other half to the accusers and denouncers. With other punishments as given more fully in the present edict and mandate."*

In practice Luther wasn’t killed, he was protected by princes of the realm and the recongnition that his death would create a martyr. It did however make travel for Luther and his men very difficult and dangerous and it’s why invitations by the church in communion with the Bishop of Rome were hard to accept.
 
In any case the damage was done and I don’t know how there will ever be unity now.
Unity may indeed be out of reach by us (but always possible with the Holy Spirit) - but I will say that dialog with Rome and Confessional Lutherans is leading to understanding and good will.
 
lots of really good food for thought in this thread. i really am learning a lot from this forum**!**
 
If Luther could have foreseen clearly what has happened to western Christianity over the past 500 years, would Luther have said and done the things that history records of him?

If you had been Luther, would you have followed the same course he took?

Why or why not?
Several things. The man had issues. I don’t think he really had a vocation to the priesthood either.

He’s no different than some others in the Church, especially the past fifty years or so.

The Church has never really recovered from the Reformation. I could say more, but CAF rules prohibit me from speaking freely on a few subjects.

Would I have done what Luther did? With the grace of God, I hope not. He was delusional and let his pride blind him completely. He went from bad to worse.
 
Several things. The man had issues. I don’t think he really had a vocation to the priesthood either.

He’s no different than some others in the Church, especially the past fifty years or so.

The Church has never really recovered from the Reformation. I could say more, but CAF rules prohibit me from speaking freely on a few subjects.

Would I have done what Luther did? With the grace of God, I hope not. He was delusional and let his pride blind him completely. He went from bad to worse.
In what ways do you think the Church has never recovered from the Reformation?
 
I have often thought a number of the posters on CAF could use one as well.
And how. :rolleyes:
In what ways do you think the Church has never recovered from the Reformation?
Well, for starters, the number of Protestants is roughly equal to the number of Catholics.

Who knows? It could go the way of Arianism. I hope to God it does. But if it does, clearly it’s not any time soon.
 
the number of Protestants is roughly equal to the number of Catholics.

is that really true? i’d always thought the number of catholics far exceeded the number of protestants

there are many large nations that are near 100% catholic
 
it seems to me from all accounts that there is roughly a little over 395 million or so Protestants and roughly 1.8 billion Catholic’s, so there is far more Catholic’s than Protestants.
 
This seems rather well researched:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Catholic ~1.2 billion
Protestants ~.8 billion



A fascinating stat in my opinion: There are more confessional Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.
Hi Ben: I looked at your link and I think it a bit off but close. I did do a little research on it and at last count that was the numbers that came up. I won’t say that it is right on as I think the number change from time to time. I did try to research it as well as I could but I also know that the numbers might be a trifle off depending on what sources are used.
 
And how. :rolleyes:

Well, for starters, the number of Protestants is roughly equal to the number of Catholics.

Who knows? It could go the way of Arianism. I hope to God it does. But if it does, clearly it’s not any time soon.
Thanks for the explanation.
 
I wonder if there are more Muslims than protestants? I believe the Muslims will soon surpass the Catholics.
Hi 7 Sorrows, there is from what I have been to able to research about 1.2 billion Muslims and about 1,8 Catholic’s in the world today. they do have a bit of catching up and also the Catholic faith is growing faster than the Muslims at this point in time.
 
Hi 7 Sorrows, there is from what I have been to able to research about 1.2 billion Muslims and about 1,8 Catholic’s in the world today. they do have a bit of catching up and also the Catholic faith is growing faster than the Muslims at this point in time.
Thank you!
 
To be fair, you forgot Anglicanism, which pushes the total almost to 900 million. And if you like, nontrinitarian “Christians” would definitely push it up to 900 million.

Still, I thought the numbers were a bit more even. Guess I need to update my demographics research every now and again. 😊

EDIT: on those maps. Look at all those faded shades of blue in Europe. 😦
 
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