Looking for an in-depth explanation of CCC389 (original sin)

[fhansen]

Good Morning,

What can be seen is that both the words above and the words in my signature from Pope Francis reflect the Gospel. There are two ways of dealing with the word “if”.

One way of dealing with the word “if” is to say that God’s forgiveness is conditional, that God only forgives if we are contrite, that His forgiveness, His mercy, depends on our attitude. If we have a bad attitude toward God, He has nothing to do with us; it would be unjust for God to forgive (from the heart) an unrepentant person.

The other way dealing with the word “if” is to say that even though God always forgives, the forgiveness is not made real, not manifested in the person’s spiritual well-being unless he returns with a contrite heart. After all, a person who lacks contrition and hangs onto justifying his evil ways and/or refuses to forgive is not in relationship, or has very poor relationship, with the Father. The “if” in this case refers to a lack of manifested reconciliation, not a lack of forgiveness from God.

You see, the person that prefers the first way of dealing with the word “if” above finds that the concept of “original sin” makes sense if it means that forgiveness can sometimes be unjust. OTOH, the person who sees that God always forgives would find reason to tamper with the concept of os. It looks to me like Aquinas and others have broadened the doctrine to allow for some variation.

Well, IMO the second case is consistent with Catholic teaching-and requires no tampering. Man is born separated in some manner from God which constitutes the unnatural or disordered state of OS, and reconciliation, while made accessible via the Incarnation and all that implies, takes place only if the person accepts the offer. Otherwise he/she remains outside the kingdom, outside of relationship with God…

 

[OneSheep]

No tampering. It is consistent in the Catechism.

Hi Vico,

I apologize for dragging this one up again, but I need to bring this forth “for the record”.

Here is a definition of the word “tamper” on Dictionary.com:

1. to meddle, especially for the purpose of altering, damaging, or misusing (usually followed by with):
   Someone has been tampering with the lock.
2. to make changes in something, especially in order to falsify (usually followed by with):
   to tamper with official records.
3. to engage secretly or improperly in something.
4. to engage in underhand or corrupt dealings, especially in order to influence improperly (usually followed by with)

Given this definition, though I and other(s) wrote of “legitimate tampering”, it is clear in the definition that tampering is not a synonym of “alter”. Because of the above definition of “tamper” it is actually a bit superfluous to address tampering with any Church doctrine whatsoever! Obviously, we are not to tamper with it, because tampering is defined as having the purpose of altering (in underhand or corruption), damaging, or misusing.

So Vico, I affirm that you are absolutely correct. We are not to tamper..

Now, let’s look again at the CCC:

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Notice that 389 uses the word “tamper” not “alter”. It can be demonstrated that the revelation of original sin can be altered in a way that does not undermine the mystery of Christ, but instead opens up and incorporates an entirely new and uplifting way of looking at the mystery without negating previous motivations for repenting and following Christ.

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico,

I apologize for dragging this one up again, but I need to bring this forth “for the record”.

Here is a definition of the word “tamper” on Dictionary.com:

1. to meddle, especially for the purpose of altering, damaging, or misusing (usually followed by with):
   Someone has been tampering with the lock.
2. to make changes in something, especially in order to falsify (usually followed by with):
   to tamper with official records.
3. to engage secretly or improperly in something.
4. to engage in underhand or corrupt dealings, especially in order to influence improperly (usually followed by with)

Given this definition, though I and other(s) wrote of “legitimate tampering”, it is clear in the definition that tampering is not a synonym of “alter”. Because of the above definition of “tamper” it is actually a bit superfluous to address tampering with any Church doctrine whatsoever! Obviously, we are not to tamper with it, because tampering is defined as having the purpose of altering (in underhand or corruption), damaging, or misusing.

So Vico, I affirm that you are absolutely correct. We are not to tamper..

Now, let’s look again at the CCC:

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Notice that 389 uses the word “tamper” not “alter”. It can be demonstrated that the revelation of original sin can be altered in a way that does not undermine the mystery of Christ, but instead opens up and incorporates an entirely new and uplifting way of looking at the mystery without negating previous motivations for repenting and following Christ.

In Catechism 66 is stated:

“Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.”