Looking for example of a "saved" protestant who SERIOUSLY went off the rails

[brb3]

I know numerous “OSAS” people who have walked away from a Christian life into a lifestyle of mortal sins.

Yes, many Prodigal candidates to be sure. But, how many of these died in the pigpen ? We can never be sure about deathbed revert possibilities. This is why the Catholic church always holds out hope til the final V-Fib/flatline cardiac event.

 

[brb3]

we do not have a metaphysical certitude as asserted by proponents of OSAS.

.

I think those Protestant OSAS proponents are simply expressing their current convictions … projecting forward to their final day. They too [like Peter, Paul, John, and Mary] have spent years of facing their trials, and learning to overcome the evil one. They have learned dependency on Christ … and know it is ANTITHETICAL to believe that Christ would forsake them in their Later Days on Earth. Having once promised them freedom, and delivered on that promise, could Christ now abandon them back into slavery of secular world ? They find their metaphysics from scriptures, history, and especially their personal life experience of abiding in Christ, via H.S.

Should we even want to propose to them otherwise ? To what end or purpose ? The election of God, know with metaphysical certitude WHAT THEY CURRENTLY HAVE ! Is it wrong to teach them they should have DOUBTS thereof ? I think yes — it would serve no good purpose. They listen and respond to their inner counselor, 3rd person of Trinity, that was promised to them by Christ. Can any human ever provide them with better counsel that the H.S. can ?

But, I value your insights. Lets examine your research. Give us your best points here … and PM me the total workproduct.

 

[ChadS]

How do people react to Protestants that believe that “once saved, always saved” really means that. So far the thread has tried to find examples of people that fell away and how do they reconcile that with their previous positions. I’ve found at least one example and can think of one more of Protestants that adhere to OSAS that believe that after your conversion, no matter what lifestyle you lead and no matter what sins you commit you are still saved.

ChadS

 

[Carlan]

How do people react to Protestants that believe that “once saved, always saved” really means that. So far the thread has tried to find examples of people that fell away and how do they reconcile that with their previous positions. I’ve found at least one example and can think of one more of Protestants that adhere to OSAS that believe that after your conversion, no matter what lifestyle you lead and no matter what sins you commit you are still saved.

ChadS

Not mentioning names or places,I have a family relative, who had a Baptist live in girl friend, she practiced her religion faithfully on Wednesdays and Sundays, when the practice was mentioned as being hypocritical,and causing scandal, a practicing Baptist more or less shrugged it away by saying the girl has never ever really been saved. peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Yes, many Prodigal candidates to be sure. But, how many of these died in the pigpen ? We can never be sure about deathbed revert possibilities. This is why the Catholic church always holds out hope til the final V-Fib/flatline cardiac event.

Yes Brb, and how thankful we Catholics should be for the sacraments of reconciliation and Holy Eucharist, the fullness of faith, which help us to keep persevering and growing in holiness till the end.God bless, and peace, Carlan

 

[Pax]

I think those Protestant OSAS proponents are simply expressing their current convictions … projecting forward to their final day. They too [like Peter, Paul, John, and Mary] have spent years of facing their trials, and learning to overcome the evil one. They have learned dependency on Christ … and know it is ANTITHETICAL to believe that Christ would forsake them in their Later Days on Earth. Having once promised them freedom, and delivered on that promise, could Christ now abandon them back into slavery of secular world ? They find their metaphysics from scriptures, history, and especially their personal life experience of abiding in Christ, via H.S.

Should we even want to propose to them otherwise ? To what end or purpose ? The election of God, know with metaphysical certitude WHAT THEY CURRENTLY HAVE ! Is it wrong to teach them they should have DOUBTS thereof ? I think yes — it would serve no good purpose. They listen and respond to their inner counselor, 3rd person of Trinity, that was promised to them by Christ. Can any human ever provide them with better counsel that the H.S. can ?

But, I value your insights. Lets examine your research. Give us your best points here … and PM me the total workproduct.

brb3 in Christ,

We have a Christian responsibility to evangelize and bring forward the truth. OSAS is a false and “dangerous” doctrine.

I would PM the material to you except that the files are all individually too large for the PM system to handle. It can only be done by email.

I show by examples in scripture those that meet all of the qualifications for salvation expressed in non-Catholic terms, and how they fell away. I also refute the main scriptural arguments used by proponents of OSAS, and have a list of over 60 passages of scripture that deny the doctrine. In my next post I’ll give you a great example of someone that met all of the protestant criteria for salvation and then lost it. That person is Judas, and although no one knows for sure, most contend that Judas was not saved in the end.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Judas loses Salvation:

The typical argument presented to me concerning Judas by non-Catholic Christians asserts that Judas was not a believer.

Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.

John 17:12 which says “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of **them **is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has **given **them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that believed at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.

Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.

In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:

Matthew 14:33
“And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this: "Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Obviously at that point in time, Judas was among the twelve and was going to be sitting on a throne with the rest of the twelve in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the end that was not to be…Judas betrayed Jesus.
Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:

Jesus says: " I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’"

This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:

“Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.”

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

Judas is referred to as a bosom friend. Judas “had” equal standing with the apostles which he traded for thirty pieces of silver.

Once Judas betrayed, Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.

Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.

–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.

–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.

*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:

“…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor.”

Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).

Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:

–Luke 22:1-6
“Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.”

In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:

"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”

Judas “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.

 

[ChadS]

Not mentioning names or places,I have a family relative, who had a Baptist live in girl friend, she practiced her religion faithfully on Wednesdays and Sundays, when the practice was mentioned as being hypocritical,and causing scandal, a practicing Baptist more or less shrugged it away by saying the girl has never ever really been saved. peace, Carlan

I’m always amazed that others feel comfortable making definitive statements about who is saved and who isn’t. I wasn’t raised to believe that and I can’t say I know many, if any, people that do say those sorts of things.

ChadS

 

[RedBert]

for ex:

Sex abuse scandals in the Roman Catholic Church are proof that that “the Devil is at work inside the Vatican”, according to the Holy See’s chief exorcist.

Father Gabriele Amorth, 85, who has been the Vatican’s chief exorcist for 25 years and says he has dealt with 70,000 cases of demonic possession, said that the consequences of satanic infiltration included power struggles at the Vatican as well as **“cardinals who do not believe in Jesus, and bishops who are linked to the Demon”. **
He added: “When one speaks of ‘the smoke of Satan’ [a phrase coined by Pope Paul VI in 1972] in the holy rooms, it is all true – including these latest stories of violence and paedophilia.”

**He claimed that another example of satanic behaviour was the Vatican “cover-up” over the deaths in 1998 of Alois Estermann, the then commander of the Swiss Guard, his wife and Corporal Cedric Tornay, a Swiss Guard, who were all found shot dead. “They covered up everything immediately,” he said. “Here one sees the rot”. **

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7056689.ece

 

[Pax]

I’m always amazed that others feel comfortable making definitive statements about who is saved and who isn’t. I wasn’t raised to believe that and I can’t say I know many, if any, people that do say those sorts of things.

ChadS

ChadS in Christ,

I would agree. I would say, however, that the thrust of this discussion is to question and even refute the false teaching of OSAS. One way to do that is to show that there are individuals that have gone off the rails. Those that now self promote themselves as “non-believers” when they used to proclaim themselves as faith filled and saved are examples for review of the doctrine of OSAS. We really do not know the ultimate fate of anyone, but there is obviously a need to repent and return to faith and trust in God. I really don’t think that the point and purpose of this discussion is to condemn anyone.

God bless.

 

[brb3]

OSAS is a false and “dangerous” doctrine.

I would PM the material to you except that the files are all individually too large for the PM system to handle. It can only be done by email.

There are several presentations/definitions of OSAS. The one I’m partial too is the one Peter teaches in 1st Peter, Chp. 1. & the one defined by John in his Gospel Chp. 10, when quoting Christ on the topic.

Listen to John MacArthur on the topic. Today’s radio message, available on internet as well. He teaches [OSAS = Spiritual Rebirth PLUS perseverance]. And he says it this way “I have been saved, I am being saved, and if I persevere in FAITH, I WILL BE SAVED. Salvation is a process, a gift reserved, imperishable for the Christian in Heaven. Guaranteed by promise of Christ”.

Sounds rather Catholic to me Review that radio talk on OSAS … and get back to us. If there are any flaws in his soteriology, if he misreads Peter and John … let us know

 

[BrianH]

Martin Luther removed some of the books from the New Testament which is prohibited in Revalation.

The first part of your sentence is correct. The last part is an interpretation that is an opinion (not an official stance of the Catholic Church). Usually only fundamentalists use the verse in Revelation to refer to the canon. It is generally thought that it refers only to Revelation.

 

[ChadS]

ChadS in Christ,

I would agree. I would say, however, that the thrust of this discussion is to question and even refute the false teaching of OSAS. One way to do that is to show that there are individuals that have gone off the rails. Those that now self promote themselves as “non-believers” when they used to proclaim themselves as faith filled and saved are examples for review of the doctrine of OSAS. We really do not know the ultimate fate of anyone, but there is obviously a need to repent and return to faith and trust in God. I really don’t think that the point and purpose of this discussion is to condemn anyone.

God bless.

I didn’t think this thread in general was trying to make those determinations, my comment was directed primarily towards the situation that I had quoted.

However, as I’d mentioned elsewhere there are evangelicals who really believe that OSAS literally means that no matter what. The example of Tony Alamo, as one who has gone off the rails seems to be popular here, but the televangelist Charles Stanley might be willing to argue that no matter what he did Alamo is still saved and other evangelicals, if they had a real conversion experience and later went on to deny Christ, could still in fact be saved, having never lost salvation in the first place.

ChadS

 

[brb3]

Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.

Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:

Jesus says: " I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’"

This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:

“Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.”

We all are God’s creation, with potiential to be friends of God, thru Christ. “Whosoever will may come” … salvation is for all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Had Judas repented, come to foot of Cross and begged for repentance … Would Christ of taken him to Paradise along with the Good Thief ?

Pax, we all have a measure of Judas within us. We all at some point in our lives rejected or later have betrayed Christ.

We do know that Judas was chosen, called, and received Baptism by Water. But, by the Spirit ? It would seem not. Look @ John 13:10-11 “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.” For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, " You are not all clean."
Here Judas is identified, yet shortly thereafter another betrayed Christ thrice ? Our first Pope !!! Peter repented, received forgiveness, and did not utterly abandon/sell out Christ. Christ gave Peter the grace to persevere. Peter truly loved Christ and was there that night to support Christ, hoping to rescue him, … not sell Christ out. Peter’s denial was only done to allow him to remain in the courtyard and plan some means of assisting Christ. Peter later gave his life on cross, as evidence thereof.

True believers will endure Martyrdom, if situation requires. All the Apostles but John, gave lives in martyrdom. The Primitive Church clearly understood they were all called to give lives for their faith. This was the sine-qua-non of sainthood. Those who would not say “I AM CHRISTIAN” to save their skins … were considered as GOATS, not lost sheep, and denied further Church Rites. Perseverance to the last moment of life was primo.

All disciples today, must be ready to do likewise. The OSAS, are those who have/do/will give up their earthy, secular lives for their best Friend. Judas would not, he was not a true friend of Christ, never had been, never planned to be, ---- and was example of tares amidst the wheat.

 

[tjm190]

I do not intend this to be confrontational, but I’m not sure what the goal of this question is.

If I were to point to a Catholic who was an axe-murderer, for example, and try to infer any point linking his wickedness with his Catholicism… wow, I can already hear the catcalls: “He’s still human. No one is saying Catholics are perfect. Of course Catholics sin. Don’t use one man’s sin to try and undermine the Church”.

A Catholic does not deny the possibility of a once-Catholic losing his salvation. The claim isn’t that XXX denomination is undermined by one member’s sin, but rather that the ‘once-saved, always saved’ doctrine is.

 

[brb3]

. OSAS is a false and “dangerous” doctrine.

I would PM the material to you except that the files are all individually too large for the PM system to handle. It can only be done by email.

I show by examples in scripture those that meet all of the qualifications for salvation expressed in non-Catholic terms, and how they fell away. I also refute the main scriptural arguments used by proponents of OSAS, and have a list of over 60 passages of scripture that deny the doctrine.

.

Pax –

What providence ! Tune in for todays radio/web message to you by John MacArthur. He is describing your rationale to a T.

We need to settle this perennial debate once for all. Lets send your workproduct to John Mac … and let him defend or rescind his ‘current’ teaching on OSAS.

With John Mac’s key text straight from Peter … this should be a cinch for Catholics to refute !

 

[Pax]

We all are God’s creation, with potiential to be friends of God, thru Christ. “Whosoever will may come” … salvation is for all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Had Judas repented, come to foot of Cross and begged for repentance … Would Christ of taken him to Paradise along with the Good Thief ?

Pax, we all have a measure of Judas within us. We all at some point in our lives rejected or later have betrayed Christ.

We do know that Judas was chosen, called, and received Baptism by Water. But, by the Spirit ? It would seem not. Look @ John 13:10-11 “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you.” For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, " You are not all clean."
Here Judas is identified, yet shortly thereafter another betrayed Christ thrice ? Our first Pope !!! Peter repented, received forgiveness, and did not utterly abandon/sell out Christ. Christ gave Peter the grace to persevere. Peter truly loved Christ and was there that night to support Christ, hoping to rescue him, … not sell Christ out. Peter’s denial was only done to allow him to remain in the courtyard and plan some means of assisting Christ. Peter later gave his life on cross, as evidence thereof.

True believers will endure Martyrdom, if situation requires. All the Apostles but John, gave lives in martyrdom. The Primitive Church clearly understood they were all called to give lives for their faith. This was the sine-qua-non of sainthood. Those who would not say “I AM CHRISTIAN” to save their skins … were considered as GOATS, not lost sheep, and denied further Church Rites. Perseverance to the last moment of life was primo.

All disciples today, must be ready to do likewise. The OSAS, are those who have/do/will give up their earthy, secular lives for their best Friend. Judas would not, he was not a true friend of Christ, never had been, never planned to be, ---- and was example of tares amidst the wheat.

brb3 in Christ,

There is nothing in this post that refutes what I gave to you on Judas. The issue is not whether or not Judas could have repented. The point is that he did not repent before God as did Peter. Likewise, you claim that Judas was never a friend of Jesus, but I quoted the scriptures where Jesus, himself, says otherwise. Moreover, the fact that Jesus says at the Last Supper that one of the twelve is unclean because he will be a betrayer does not negate the fact that Judas was a friend of the Lord. That’s part of what the betrayal is all about.

It doesn’t matter whether or not someone intended to betray Jesus*, or whether they denied Jesus*. Both needed to have a godly grief and repentance. Remember this, Jesus tells us in Matt !0:33 that:

“…whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”

It is for this reason that Peter’s three fold denial in front of the charcoal fire in the courtyard causes him to weep bitterly in sorrow. Moreover, in the gospel of John, we see where Jesus asks Peter three times in front of a charcoal fire if he[Peter] loves him. This three fold profession of love is a confession and profession in contrast to the three fold denial.

You claim that Judas did not have the Holy Spirit, but Judas cast out demons and healed the sick by the power of the Holy Spirit. Judas has all of the qualifications for salvation as explained by OSAS as anyone else. OSAS believers claim salvation is by faith alone. Judas recognized Jesus as God, and worshipped Jesus in the boat just like the rest of the disciples. Judas “became” a betrayer after meeting the conditions of OSAS for salvation

God bless.*

 

[Pax]

brb3 in Christ,

The story about Simon the Magician is also helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again, Simon is not described as a believer without root, or a false believer or any other such thing.

We are told in Acts 8:13 “Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on of hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you”[Acts 8:20-22]. This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead, it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We learn several things here:

—Simon is a believer and was even baptized.

—Simon is in danger of losing his salvation.

—Peter tells Simon that he must “repent.” He does not accuse Simon of being an “unbeliever.”

—Peter tells Simon to pray to the Lord that he will be forgiven. Telling a non-believer to pray to the Lord for forgiveness would make no sense in this context.

—Simon asks Peter to pray for him so that he “would not perish”. A false believer would not ask a believer to pray for them, and would have no confidence that such prayers would be helpful.

Simon was a believer, but most scholars contend that Simon the Magician lost his salvation or was never saved in the first place. The scripture as explained demonstrates the former but denies the latter.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

There are several presentations/definitions of OSAS. The one I’m partial too is the one Peter teaches in 1st Peter, Chp. 1. & the one defined by John in his Gospel Chp. 10, when quoting Christ on the topic.
…
…

brb3 in Christ,

I’ve already dealt with John 10 via all that I gave you on Judas, but I’ll elaborate on this a little more.

The verse that most point to reads as follows:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand[Jn 10:27-19].

OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that a believer cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” Catholics believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated. First of all this verse is part of the parable of the “Good Shepherd.” The theme of the sheep and the Shepherd is one that is used by Jesus many times and all of the references are related. An important example of these references is Luke 15:4-7 which says,

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”

Clearly, this reference pertains to a member of Christ’s sheep fold, and the final verse indicates that the sheep that is restored is a reference to a sinner who repents. Obviously, if the sinner does not repent that sinner is not restored. James make a similar reference when he says,

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”[James 5:19-20].

Now let’s make the exegesis of John 10:27-29 even more concrete. Before doing this I need to lay just a little more ground work using Protestant doctrine. Protestant doctrine states that we are saved by faith “alone.” That is to say that we are saved by “belief alone.” We are told in John 2:1-11 in the narrative of the miracle at the marriage feast of Cana, that,

“This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.”

We also read of Peter’s confession of faith in Matthew 16:16-17. We also know that the other apostles were present when this profession was made. They all apparently accepted Jesus as the Messiah and son of God. We also read in Matthew 10:7-8 that Jesus sent the twelve out in pairs to “preach as you go, saying,

‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons.”

The twelve did as Jesus commanded and they worked the miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Clearly, the twelve were “believers.”

Now, with that in mind let’s get back to John 10:27-29. This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-11 which reads,

“Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.”

It should be easily noticed that the language is virtually identical in meaning to Jn 10:27-29.

The rub comes in when you move on to John 17:12 which says

“While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,

”My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

If someone is saved “once and for all” they cannot be “saved again” by someone bringing them back from the place to which they wandered. OSAS simply makes no sense in the light of scripture.

God bless.