Looking for example of a "saved" protestant who SERIOUSLY went off the rails

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DavidFilmer

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Protestants who espouse a “once saved, always saved” theology have a problem when a “saved” person does some really awful thing. They revert to a (flawed) defense that this person was not “really” saved to begin with.

Catholic apologists know the drill. But, to help make the point, I was wondering if there was a good (Google-able) example of a protestant who was clearly “saved” by all protestant standards, but went completely off the rails in some really serious way. I’m talking axe-murderer serious. Not like Jim Baaker (fraudulent financial dealings) or Jimmy Swaggart (sexual sins - but not rape). I’m talking about something REALLY big and violent (like murder or rape).
 
After posting my question, I remembered the sad case of the anti-Catholic Tony Alamo. As a convicted sexual predator of children, he would meet my “off the rails” criteria.

I would still be interested in other extreme examples.
 
Dr. Bob Gray, former pastor of Trinity Baptist Church and founder of Trinity Baptist College, a very large fundamentalist Baptist school in Jacksonville, Florida, arrested for child molestation several years ago. He has since died.
 
What about the guy last year, I think it was, who went on a shooting spree and suicide under the pretense that he couldn’t lose his salvation because his pastor told him he couldn’t.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Protestants who espouse a “once saved, always saved” theology have a problem when a “saved” person does some really awful thing. They revert to a (flawed) defense that this person was not “really” saved to begin with.

Catholic apologists know the drill. But, to help make the point, I was wondering if there was a good (Google-able) example of a protestant who was clearly “saved” by all protestant standards, but went completely off the rails in some really serious way. I’m talking axe-murderer serious. Not like Jim Baaker (fraudulent financial dealings) or Jimmy Swaggart (sexual sins - but not rape). I’m talking about something REALLY big and violent (like murder or rape).
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Do you mean something on a really large scale that would compare with something like the pedophile priests who were transferred from parish to parish, abusing more children at each new parish? Do you suppose those priests were “saved”?
 
Check out former pastor, John W. Loftus turned atheist, and Dan Barker a former pastor turned atheist.

Their stories pretty much debunk OSAS.
 
Pax said:
Check out former pastor, John W. Loftus turned atheist, and Dan Barker a former pastor turned atheist.

Their stories pretty much debunk OSAS.
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Not really. Protestants know they have their share of false shepherds. This is right out of OT scripture … and applied to the Jewish priesthood by Christ.

Can one who is truly reborn of H.S. … later deny Christ for very long (yes, Peter did briefly) ? Protestants think not … based on what St. John says in scriptures.

Most of those high profile Protestants who fall back into serious sin, are judged in this world, and usually repent and desire to make amends to their fellowmen.
 
brb3 said:
Not really. Protestants know they have their share of false shepherds. This is right out of OT scripture … and applied to the Jewish priesthood by Christ.

Can one who is truly reborn of H.S. … later deny Christ for very long (yes, Peter did briefly) ? Protestants think not … based on what St. John says in scriptures.

Most of those high profile Protestants who fall back into serious sin, are judged in this world, and usually repent and desire to make amends to their fellowmen.
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brb3 in Christ,

The problem is that not all do so. Likewise, scripture is quite clear about the loss of salvation. I have researched this particular topic thoroughly and if you’re interested can provide you with overwhelming scriptural evidence. Just send me a PM with your email address and I’ll send you the files.

God bless.
 
Actually Charles Stanley, the Baptist tele-evangelist, believes that “once saved, always saved” means that you can’t lose your salvation, period. Even for the person that backslides and leads a life of sin and degradation – that person is still saved. He believes that Jesus forgives all sins past, present and future at the time of their conversion. You might not enjoy all the graces and blessings God had in store for you if you return to a sinful lifestyle, but you can still be assured of your salvation.

http://www.intouch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=cnKBIPNuEoG&b=4945087&content_id={542771EF-60BF-4301-A90F-037799B96308}&notoc=1

ChadS
 
DavidFilmer said:
Protestants who espouse a “once saved, always saved” theology have a problem when a “saved” person does some really awful thing. They revert to a (flawed) defense that this person was not “really” saved to begin with.

Catholic apologists know the drill. But, to help make the point, I was wondering if there was a good (Google-able) example of a protestant who was clearly “saved” by all protestant standards, but went completely off the rails in some really serious way. I’m talking axe-murderer serious. Not like Jim Baaker (fraudulent financial dealings) or Jimmy Swaggart (sexual sins - but not rape). I’m talking about something REALLY big and violent (like murder or rape).
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James White became Catholic.

(😛 Just Kidding)
 
Priscilla_Ann said:
Do you mean something on a really large scale that would compare with something like the pedophile priests who were transferred from parish to parish, abusing more children at each new parish? Do you suppose those priests were “saved”?
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Go back and re-read the OP title. The OP clearly said “Protestant”.

Catholics do not presume to judge a soul “is saved”. So none of this applies. Judging salvation is reserved for God’s final sovereign judgement alone. While Catholics may have exceedingly high confidence that they are in a state of grace through an examination of conscience and by means of habitual sacramental repentance (and other sacraments) none of us would dare to speak for God or presume in this matter. Catholics know that a presumption on God’s mercy and is a grave sin. This sin leads to all kinds of abuses and irresponsible behavior that divorces accountability and responsibility of freewill from one’s illicit actions. I have even heard Southern Baptists say that “sin no longer exists for a saved person” and will not feel remorseful if they then commit adultery or fornicate since “they are saved”.

That said Catholics believe that God may choose to explicitly reveal to an individual soul its status before Himself by direct private revelation. As well Catholics may believe that God can give “signal graces” that He has granted the individual soul the most desired grace of all “the grace of final perseverance”. But Catholics know we must finish the good race in grace or else we are subject to being damned by our own faults.

Not to get off topic but I’d like to make a short comment about your statement concerning the transfer of pedophiles from parish to parish. This was extremely rare. The Catholic Church at the last time I checked had over 400,000 world wide ordained clergy - active and retired. The actual few numbers of clergy found to be guilty of the pedophile/abuse crimes are well below all known social norms in every other secular institution (e.g. military, government, public schools, protestant churches, domestic families [incest] etc.).

While even a single case of abuse is grievous one should come to understand that the media and greedy lawyers specifically targeted the Catholic Church after a few incidents were discovered and made it look a lot worse than it really was. Many safeguards are now in place to reduce the number of incidents to as much as is humanly possible - including a new policy forbidding the ordination of any men with even slight homosexual tendencies (by admission and by psychological testing) irrespective of a sworn oath of celibacy. Most of the pedophile cases were homosexual priests who broke their vows of celibacy. As a Catholic I am more angry than you can imagine over this myself. God help them for the damage the caused is all I will say here.

I also note that there are zero cases of spouse-abuse among the Catholic Church clergy since there are almost no married priests (only a few Anglican/Presbyterian married covert exceptions). Compare that statistic with the large numbers of physical spouse abuse now starting to be reported about Protestant ministers (am hearing as high as 3-10%). These are burning-out/stressed-out in fairly large numbers trying to run their church communities at the same time they try to run their own households then go “postal” with ther spouses. It’s not reported in the mainline press but its showing up in the blogs now.

Enough said here - back to topic.

James
 
JVD said:
Go back and re-read the OP title. The OP clearly said “Protestant”.

Catholics do not presume to judge a soul “is saved”. So none of this applies. Judging salvation is reserved for God’s final sovereign judgement alone. While Catholics may have exceedingly high confidence that they are in a state of grace through an examination of conscience and by means of habitual sacramental repentance (and other sacraments) none of us would dare to speak for God or presume in this matter. Catholics know that a presumption on God’s mercy and is a grave sin. This sin leads to all kinds of abuses and irresponsible behavior that divorces accountability and responsibility of freewill from one’s illicit actions. I have even heard Southern Baptists say that “sin no longer exists for a saved person” and will not feel remorseful if they then commit adultery or fornicate since “they are saved”.

That said Catholics believe that God may choose to explicitly reveal to an individual soul its status before Himself by direct private revelation. As well Catholics may believe that God can give “signal graces” that He has granted the individual soul the most desired grace of all “the grace of final perseverance”. But Catholics know we must finish the good race in grace or else we are subject to being damned by our own faults.

Not to get off topic but I’d like to make a short comment about your statement concerning the transfer of pedophiles from parish to parish. This was extremely rare. The Catholic Church at the last time I checked had over 400,000 world wide ordained clergy - active and retired. The actual few numbers of clergy found to be guilty of the pedophile/abuse crimes are well below all known social norms in every other secular institution (e.g. military, government, public schools, protestant churches, domestic families [incest] etc.).

While even a single case of abuse is grievous one should come to understand that the media and greedy lawyers specifically targeted the Catholic Church after a few incidents were discovered and made it look a lot worse than it really was. Many safeguards are now in place to reduce the number of incidents to as much as is humanly possible - including a new policy forbidding the ordination of any men with even slight homosexual tendencies (by admission and by psychological testing) irrespective of a sworn oath of celibacy. Most of the pedophile cases were homosexual priests who broke their vows of celibacy. As a Catholic I am more angry than you can imagine over this myself. God help them for the damage the caused is all I will say here.

I also note that there are zero cases of spouse-abuse among the Catholic Church clergy since there are almost no married priests (only a few Anglican/Presbyterian married covert exceptions). Compare that statistic with the large numbers of physical spouse abuse now starting to be reported about Protestant ministers (am hearing as high as 3-10%). These are burning-out/stressed-out in fairly large numbers trying to run their church communities at the same time they try to run their own households then go “postal” with ther spouses. It’s not reported in the mainline press but its showing up in the blogs now.

Enough said here - back to topic.

James
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Thank you very much for your post on this James, Unfortunately ant-Catholics come to visit with closed minds. We pray for their conversion, and for the conversion of fallen away Catholics.God bless, Carlan
 
JVD said:
Go back and re-read the OP title. The OP clearly said “Protestant”.

Catholics do not presume to judge a soul “is saved”. So none of this applies. Judging salvation is reserved for God’s final sovereign judgement alone. While Catholics may have exceedingly high confidence that they are in a state of grace through an examination of conscience and by means of habitual sacramental repentance (and other sacraments) none of us would dare to speak for God or presume in this matter. Catholics know that a presumption on God’s mercy and is a grave sin. This sin leads to all kinds of abuses and irresponsible behavior that divorces accountability and responsibility of freewill from one’s illicit actions. I have even heard Southern Baptists say that “sin no longer exists for a saved person” and will not feel remorseful if they then commit adultery or fornicate since “they are saved”.

That said Catholics believe that God may choose to explicitly reveal to an individual soul its status before Himself by direct private revelation. As well Catholics may believe that God can give “signal graces” that He has granted the individual soul the most desired grace of all “the grace of final perseverance”. But Catholics know we must finish the good race in grace or else we are subject to being damned by our own faults.

Not to get off topic but I’d like to make a short comment about your statement concerning the transfer of pedophiles from parish to parish. This was extremely rare. The Catholic Church at the last time I checked had over 400,000 world wide ordained clergy - active and retired. The actual few numbers of clergy found to be guilty of the pedophile/abuse crimes are well below all known social norms in every other secular institution (e.g. military, government, public schools, protestant churches, domestic families [incest] etc.).

While even a single case of abuse is grievous one should come to understand that the media and greedy lawyers specifically targeted the Catholic Church after a few incidents were discovered and made it look a lot worse than it really was. Many safeguards are now in place to reduce the number of incidents to as much as is humanly possible - including a new policy forbidding the ordination of any men with even slight homosexual tendencies (by admission and by psychological testing) irrespective of a sworn oath of celibacy. Most of the pedophile cases were homosexual priests who broke their vows of celibacy. As a Catholic I am more angry than you can imagine over this myself. God help them for the damage the caused is all I will say here.

I also note that there are zero cases of spouse-abuse among the Catholic Church clergy since there are almost no married priests (only a few Anglican/Presbyterian married covert exceptions). Compare that statistic with the large numbers of physical spouse abuse now starting to be reported about Protestant ministers (am hearing as high as 3-10%). These are burning-out/stressed-out in fairly large numbers trying to run their church communities at the same time they try to run their own households then go “postal” with ther spouses. It’s not reported in the mainline press but its showing up in the blogs now.

Enough said here - back to topic.

James
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And to clearly answer Priscilla Ann’s (baited) question:

Catholics do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved. Those priests (and the Bishops that transferred them), like all of us, did/do not have an assurance of salvation. If they sincerely repent of their sins (all of them, not just the horrible pedo and ebophilia) and die in a state of Grace, then yes, they will (eventually, probably after some severe purification in purgatory) go to heaven. If they do not, then they won’t.

Plus, to turn the question back around: I thought the OSAS type Protestants didn’t believe any one sin was any worse than another. So, child molestion should be no worse than lying, and murder no worse than fornicating, as far as God is concerned (they all send you to Hell w/o Christ). So why pick on the Priests? Since they’re Catholic, you probably don’t believe they’re saved to begin with, anyway.

In Christ,

Ellen
 
Pax said:
scripture is quite clear about the loss of salvation. I have researched this particular topic thoroughly and if you’re interested can provide you with overwhelming scriptural evidence. Just send me a PM with your email address and I’ll send you the files.
Click to expand...
Protestants who preach OSAS use 1st Peter 1:3 thru 2:10 as support thereof.
Isn’t it interesting they find their proof in Peter’s Epistle ?

Here’s the thing about it Pax. God can see into the future. He knows the ending. He doesn’t violate our free wills, but He is Omniscient … and cannot be limited in knowledge.

When Scripture says Christ will deliver all who God has given him, w/o exception, … we can know for these elect that OSAS is a reality. OSAS … applies to God’s knowledge and purposes in this world. Man can’t talk with absolute certitude about others, so we are told never to judge anothers salvation. However, for ourselves, we can have certitude. This is clear from reading John & Peter. Even Paul had certitude about his final outcome. I think all the first century disciples and subsequent great saints of God share the confidence the first apostles had.

I would venture you have this certitude ! It would be in bad taste for you to claim it. But, I know enuf about your beliefs to suggest you have it. You know God has graced you and will never forsake. You have conquered the evil one. What could possibly pull you into apostasy ? Perhaps the trials of Job ? :nope:

Job had history’s worst in way of unexplicable trials. No one else will ever go thru what he did. And, even if we did … we have his experience to sustain us thru such an ordeal. And, we have the New Covenant knowledge of what the Early Century martyrs’ endured. You would endure martyrdom … if needed. Christ teaches if we harbor doubts … we are like a reed blowing in the wind.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Protestants who espouse a “once saved, always saved” theology have a problem when a “saved” person does some really awful thing. .
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Martin Luther removed some of the books from the New Testament which is prohibited in Revalation.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Protestants who espouse a “once saved, always saved” theology have a problem when a “saved” person does some really awful thing. They revert to a (flawed) defense that this person was not “really” saved to begin with.

Catholic apologists know the drill. But, to help make the point, I was wondering if there was a good (Google-able) example of a protestant who was clearly “saved” by all protestant standards, but went completely off the rails in some really serious way. I’m talking axe-murderer serious. Not like Jim Baaker (fraudulent financial dealings) or Jimmy Swaggart (sexual sins - but not rape). I’m talking about something REALLY big and violent (like murder or rape).
Click to expand...
I do not intend this to be confrontational, but I’m not sure what the goal of this question is.

If I were to point to a Catholic who was an axe-murderer, for example, and try to infer any point linking his wickedness with his Catholicism… wow, I can already hear the catcalls: “He’s still human. No one is saying Catholics are perfect. Of course Catholics sin. Don’t use one man’s sin to try and undermine the Church”.
 
DavidFilmer said:
After posting my question, I remembered the sad case of the anti-Catholic Tony Alamo. As a convicted sexual predator of children, he would meet my “off the rails” criteria.

I would still be interested in other extreme examples.
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Mortal sin is mortal sin. I would say a lifestyle of mortal sin would trump the once in a lifetime crime of passion. (Not that I know anyone who has committed a crime of passion)
I know numerous “OSAS” people who have walked away from a Christian life into a lifestyle of mortal sins. It breaks my heart.
 
brb3 said:
Protestants who preach OSAS use 1st Peter 1:3 thru 2:10 as support thereof.
Isn’t it interesting they find their proof in Peter’s Epistle ?

Here’s the thing about it Pax. God can see into the future. He knows the ending. He doesn’t violate our free wills, but He is Omniscient … and cannot be limited in knowledge.

When Scripture says Christ will deliver all who God has given him, w/o exception, … we can know for these elect that OSAS is a reality. OSAS … applies to God’s knowledge and purposes in this world. Man can’t talk with absolute certitude about others, so we are told never to judge anothers salvation. However, for ourselves, we can have certitude. This is clear from reading John & Peter. Even Paul had certitude about his final outcome. I think all the first century disciples and subsequent great saints of God share the confidence the first apostles had.

I would venture you have this certitude ! It would be in bad taste for you to claim it. But, I know enuf about your beliefs to suggest you have it. You know God has graced you and will never forsake. You have conquered the evil one. What could possibly pull you into apostasy ? Perhaps the trials of Job ? :nope:

Job had history’s worst in way of unexplicable trials. No one else will ever go thru what he did. And, even if we did … we have his experience to sustain us thru such an ordeal. And, we have the New Covenant knowledge of what the Early Century martyrs’ endured. You would endure martyrdom … if needed. Christ teaches if we harbor doubts … we are like a reed blowing in the wind.
Click to expand...
brb3 in Christ,

We have a moral assurance/certitude about salvation, but we do not have a metaphysical certitude as asserted by proponents of OSAS.

I once again invite you to look over what I’ve researched on this issue by way of scripture you might find that it will give you a different perspective.

God bless.
 
Major_Tom said:
I do not intend this to be confrontational, but I’m not sure what the goal of this question is.

If I were to point to a Catholic who was an axe-murderer, for example, and try to infer any point linking his wickedness with his Catholicism… wow, I can already hear the catcalls: “He’s still human. No one is saying Catholics are perfect. Of course Catholics sin. Don’t use one man’s sin to try and undermine the Church”.
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Like you, Major Tom, I am not comfortable with this question. Some how, I do not think Jesus wants us to be focusing on trying to publicize the major sins of others.
 
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