Looking for example of a "saved" protestant who SERIOUSLY went off the rails

[Pax]

brb3 in Christ,

You referenced 1 Peter chapter one as especially strong evidence for OSAS. I have read that passages many times over in the past and reviewed it again for purposes of this discussion. I see nothing in that letter that teaches OSAS. I do see, however, how someone might misconstrue the apostle’s intent if they take that chapter out of the context of the entire epistle, and even more so if they fail to look at Peter’s second epistle.

I would be interested in having you articulate exactly how the passage within the context of all that Peter says actually teaches OSAS. Since I disagree with John MacArthur it would not be fair of me to present his arguments and then attempt to refute them. You will need to be his champion and present his views if you want me to engage you along those lines.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Pax –

What providence ! Tune in for todays radio/web message to you by John MacArthur. He is describing your rationale to a T.

We need to settle this perennial debate once for all. Lets send your workproduct to John Mac … and let him defend or rescind his ‘current’ teaching on OSAS.

With John Mac’s key text straight from Peter … this should be a cinch for Catholics to refute !

brb3 in Christ,

I fail to see how sending my materials to John Mac would settle this perrenial debate, let alone convince him. Per you request, I listened to his presentation and it is seriously flawed. For the sake of those reading this thread, I will let you champion his views. His position is, by the way, against Catholic teaching. Please present his arguments and then we will give his arguments the scriptural shakedown.

God bless.

 

[brb3]

John Mac … I will let you champion his views. His position is, by the way, against Catholic teaching. Please present his arguments and then we will give his arguments the scriptural shakedown.

.

Ok … I will role play John Mac.

Let me first say, I don’t think there is any substantive difference in John’s and the Catholic position. You say tomayto … and he says tomawto, its the same veggie [or fruit ]. Its a distinction w/o a difference. Both camps are Children of Christ … both are his election, both WILL BE saved, if they persevere.

Let’s first define terms. Salvation = Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance

The debate is really over how we define Salvation. Recall Paul’s sermon to the Phillippian Jailer … “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL BE saved, and your house”. Not believe and you ARE, but believe and you Shall/Will be … future tense.

Those who preach Faith Alone, must emphasize the perseverance of faith til one’s end. John Mac does this. I concede some Protestants don’t, ignoring perseverance. John Mac says ‘I have been saved, I am saved, and I shall be saved [if I persevere]’. It’s acceptable to speak of our past & present, stipulating we don’t know our future. Yet, we say we have every hope, every expectation, &…YES, even every ASSURANCE, that our future is secured by Christ. We can have this ASSURANCE, because scripture confirms Christ is our Rock, our Good Shepherd … who will not abandon his sheep.

You quote the parable of Christ in Luke 15:4-7 … where the one sheep of 100 goes missing. This is the same teaching as the Prodigal Son parable. “What man of you … does not go after the one that is lost … AND WHEN HE HAS FOUND IT, HE LAYS IT ON HIS SHOULDERS, REJOICING”…
Not IF he finds it, but when CHRIST has restored the Prodigal Son/Daughter … returning that one to the Father, the one the Father had given him, …the Sheepfold is once again complete, and there is much rejoicing in Heaven.

The Sheepfold contains only the Election of the Father, not Judas or Simon the Magician types who are briefly pulled to examine Christ, but can’t give up their own Kingships, surrender their free will, and fully embrace teachings of Christ the King, to grow in ‘abiding’ discipleship. John Mac would say that Judas and Simon M., were only curious about Christ, but never learned true obedience and became lifelong disciples. Their lack of perseverence, confirms what the Primitive Church said of such types. “The were not of us, for they went out from us”. They had faith, but not ‘abiding faith’ that brings one ultimate SALVATION.

W/O perseverence, the SALVATION equation is not complete. John Mac’s soteriology would say that the Good Thief on the Cross needed only a few hours of perseverance. But, enough to get him to Paradise. Nevertheless, he bore his Cross for Christ, and died a Martyr, having perhaps the greatest witness of all men on earth. Considered a saint, yes !! His life testimony has led more sinners to conversion than any other in scripture. We all can relate to his plight, and know that if he was forgiven … we too are welcomed by our Lord, to repent find forgiven at the cross, even in our final hour.

 

[Pax]

Ok … I will role play John Mac.

Let me first say, I don’t think there is any substantive difference in John’s and the Catholic position. You say tomayto … and he says tomawto, its the same veggie [or fruit ]. Its a distinction w/o a difference. Both camps are Children of Christ … both are his election, both WILL BE saved, if they persevere.

Let’s first define terms. Salvation = Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance

The debate is really over how we define Salvation. Recall Paul’s sermon to the Phillippian Jailer … “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL BE saved, and your house”. Not believe and you ARE, but believe and you Shall/Will be … future tense.

Those who preach Faith Alone, must emphasize the perseverance of faith til one’s end. John Mac does this. I concede some Protestants don’t, ignoring perseverance. John Mac says ‘I have been saved, I am saved, and I shall be saved [if I persevere]’. It’s acceptable to speak of our past & present, stipulating we don’t know our future. Yet, we say we have every hope, every expectation, &…YES, even every ASSURANCE, that our future is secured by Christ. We can have this ASSURANCE, because scripture confirms Christ is our Rock, our Good Shepherd … who will not abandon his sheep.

You quote the parable of Christ in Luke 15:4-7 … where the one sheep of 100 goes missing. This is the same teaching as the Prodigal Son parable. “What man of you … does not go after the one that is lost … AND WHEN HE HAS FOUND IT, HE LAYS IT ON HIS SHOULDERS, REJOICING”…
Not IF he finds it, but when CHRIST has restored the Prodigal Son/Daughter … returning that one to the Father, the one the Father had given him, …the Sheepfold is once again complete, and there is much rejoicing in Heaven.

The Sheepfold contains only the Election of the Father, not Judas or Simon the Magician types who are briefly pulled to examine Christ, but can’t give up their own Kingships, surrender their free will, and fully embrace teachings of Christ the King, to grow in ‘abiding’ discipleship. John Mac would say that Judas and Simon M., were only curious about Christ, but never learned true obedience and became lifelong disciples. Their lack of perseverence, confirms what the Primitive Church said of such types. “The were not of us, for they went out from us”. They had faith, but not ‘abiding faith’ that brings one ultimate SALVATION.

W/O perseverence, the SALVATION equation is not complete. John Mac’s soteriology would say that the Good Thief on the Cross needed only a few hours of perseverance. But, enough to get him to Paradise. Nevertheless, he bore his Cross for Christ, and died a Martyr, having perhaps the greatest witness of all men on earth. Considered a saint, yes !! His life testimony has led more sinners to conversion than any other in scripture. We all can relate to his plight, and know that if he was forgiven … we too are welcomed by our Lord, to repent find forgiven at the cross, even in our final hour.

brb3 in Christ,

I do not believe that you are articulating John Mac’s theology as he does, but I will fore go that one until later.

Please demonstrate by scripture where it says that either Judas or Simon were not believers or that they were somehow false believers, or as you put it:

“Judas or Simon the Magician types who are briefly pulled to examine Christ, but can’t give up their own Kingships, surrender their free will, and fully embrace teachings of Christ the King, to grow in ‘abiding’ discipleship. John Mac would say that Judas and Simon M., were only curious about Christ,”

There is nothing in scripture that says anything of the sort, and such contentions are based on a doctrinal overlay on the scripture[eisegesis] as opposed exegesis.

Now, you seem to think that John Mac is persuasive because you believe that he agrees that believers will be saved **if **they persevere. Sure, Catholics and everyone else believes that those in heaven all “persevered.” Perseverance is indeed required for salvation, but John MacArthur suffers from the same misconception that others of the OSAS persuasion suffer from. You used the word “if” with perseverance. This is a provisional term and the provisional aspect of that term destroys OSAS. MacArthur “attempts” to get around this word and other provisional terms in his sermon by dismissing them as not necessary but only “evidence” of salvation.

I challenge you/MacArthur to show by way of scripture where all of the many provisional terms associated with salvation, especially the ones he cited, are expressed as “evidence” as opposed to essential. There is nothing in the scriptural verses or their context that he challenged, that in any way shape or form support the view that these things are merely evidence.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Ok … I will role play John Mac.

…
…
Their lack of perseverence, confirms what the Primitive Church said of such types. “The were not of us, for they went out from us”. They had faith, but not ‘abiding faith’ that brings one ultimate SALVATION.
…
…
…

brb3 in Christ,

Subsequent to your comments on Judas and Simon the Magician you immediately said the above and, like John MacArthur, you then quoted from 1John 2:19 which says:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.** Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you.** If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. This is not mere evidence that they are saved.

This passage is a denial of OSAS and in no way supports it.

 

[brb3]

Please demonstrate by scripture where it says that either Judas or Simon were not believers or that they were somehow false believers, or as you put it:

There is nothing in scripture that says anything of the sort, and such contentions are based on a doctrinal overlay on the scripture[eisegesis] as opposed exegesis.

Lets begin with Judas. Scripture addresses his non-belief, never-saved status. In John’s Gospel, the ‘beloved’ Saint gives us Christ’s words, and the fullest account on Judas.

John 18:7-9 Again Jesus asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he; so, if you seek me, LET THESE MEN GO.” This was to fulfill the word which he had spoken, “OF THOSE WHOM THOU GAVEST ME I LOST NOT ONE.”

Look further in John’s Gospel after Judas leaves, Chp. 13. After the dismissal of Judas, Christ gives the New Commandment, the Promise of H.S., the Promise of Peace, identifies himself as the True Vine, gives the Farewell to His Disciples, the Prayer for his Disciples, the Prayer for the Church, etc. in the next 4 chapters.

Look at Mark’s Gospel, 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will ALL fall away; for it is written, ’ I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’ But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” This was said to only the OSAS 11, AFTER dismissal of Judas. Here too we note that the OT scripture applied only to the remaining 11 sheep that Christ spoke to after Judas was sent away.

I’ll answer you on Simon M. tomorrow … after we resolve Judas’ situation.

 

[Pax]

Lets begin with Judas. Scripture addresses his non-belief, never-saved status. In John’s Gospel, the ‘beloved’ Saint gives us Christ’s words, and the fullest account on Judas.

John 18:7-9 Again Jesus asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he; so, if you seek me, LET THESE MEN GO.” This was to fulfill the word which he had spoken, “OF THOSE WHOM THOU GAVEST ME I LOST NOT ONE.”

Look further in John’s Gospel after Judas leaves, Chp. 13. After the dismissal of Judas, Christ gives the New Commandment, the Promise of H.S., the Promise of Peace, identifies himself as the True Vine, gives the Farewell to His Disciples, the Prayer for his Disciples, the Prayer for the Church, etc. in the next 4 chapters.

Look at Mark’s Gospel, 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will ALL fall away; for it is written, ’ I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’ But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” This was said to only the OSAS 11, AFTER dismissal of Judas. Here too we note that the OT scripture applied only to the remaining 11 sheep that Christ spoke to after Judas was sent away.

I’ll answer you on Simon M. tomorrow … after we resolve Judas’ situation.

brb in Christ,

You have not answered me. None of this shows that Judas did not believe. It only shows us that he became a traitor. I gave clear examples from scripture that showed that Judas did believe and that he had equal standing with the other apostles. I also showed when it was that he “turned”. It is illogical to argue OSAS from what you presented. What you presented merely affirms all that I have given to you. Some repent and some don’t. Judas betrayal clearly demonstrates that someone who meets all of the criteria of OSAS can fall away. This is in clear contrast to those that do not. There is nothing in scripture that says “once saved always saved.” Scripture says exactly the opposite and it for this reason that there are so many warnings given to the believers and so many provisional terms attached to salvation.

Your quote from John 18 is in contrast and, depending on how one wishes to look at it, in direct contradiction to what I gave you in Jn 17:12 where Jesus says that he did lose one and that it was Judas. If you can’t figure this one out, let me know and I’ll explain it to you. In any event Jn 17 torches OSAS.

If you want to overcome my arguments you need to address and somehow refute all of the scripture that was presented to you concerning Judas.

God bless.

 

[brb3]

Your quote from John 18 is in contrast and, depending on how one wishes to look at it, in direct contradiction to what I gave you in Jn 17:12 where Jesus says that he did lose one and that it was Judas. If you can’t figure this one out, let me know and I’ll explain it to you. In any event Jn 17 torches OSAS.

.

Its clear from the scipture in John … that Judas was never among the Election. Christ says here that of those that God gave him … He lost NOT ONE [none were lost]. This clearly is at odds with your premise that he LOST ONLY ONE.

What he lost was a double-minded disciple, one that was baptized, but never became truely rooted in Christ. That’s why Christ teaches elsewhere in scripture that his Election must be born of both water [baptism] and his spirit. Christ annoints with H.S. only those whom the Father gives him.

Pax, it is illogical to suggest that Christ would have ‘forced’ Judas to be overcome by satan, negating Judas’s Free Will, just to get the prophesy to be fulfilled. Judas was of the ‘tares’ persuasion from the git-go. Just like the Pharisees, who admired Christ, but wanted another Messiah more to their liking.

Now, it is true that Judas finally realized his error when Christ was condemned to death. It says he grieved [repented] of his actions … thus he knew he was responsible, not believing he had been forced into the sin by Christ. Sciptures teaches “all have sinned and fallen short of Glory of God”, all have denied Christ, all have fallen away. Christ would have forgiven Judas, if he had sought out Christ and asked for repentance and to ‘be remembered’ in God’s Kingdom. God never rejects those with true contrition and a desire to please God by obedience. If Judas had been saved before taking the actions he did … he would have rushed back to his Saviour at once, knowing only Christ could help him.

 

[Carlan]

Its clear from the Scripture in John … that Judas was never among the Election. Christ says here that of those that God gave him … He lost NOT ONE [none were lost]. This clearly is at odds with your premise that he LOST ONLY ONE.

What he lost was a double-minded disciple, one that was baptized, but never became truely rooted in Christ. That’s why Christ teaches elsewhere in scripture that his Election must be born of both water [baptism] and his spirit. Christ annoints with H.S. only those whom the Father gives him.

Pax, it is illogical to suggest that Christ would have ‘forced’ Judas to be overcome by Satan, negating Judas’s Free Will, just to get the prophesy to be fulfilled. Judas was of the ‘tares’ persuasion from the git-go. Just like the Pharisees, who admired Christ, but wanted another Messiah more to their liking.

Now, it is true that Judas finally realized his error when Christ was condemned to death. It says he grieved [repented] of his actions … thus he knew he was responsible, not believing he had been forced into the sin by Christ. Sciptures teaches “all have sinned and fallen short of Glory of God”, all have denied Christ, all have fallen away. Christ would have forgiven Judas, if he had sought out Christ and asked for repentance and to ‘be remembered’ in God’s Kingdom. God never rejects those with true contrition and a desire to please God by obedience. If Judas had been saved before taking the actions he did … he would have rushed back to his Saviour at once, knowing only Christ could help him.

I must say, IMHO, you are somewhat off base with this OSAS false doctrine, Ultimately it is God’s call when it comes to judging any of us. While it don’t look good for Judas, you simply cannot claim he wasn’t saved in the first place, in my opinion Pax wins this one.Carlan

 

[brb3]

in my opinion Pax wins this one

I was busy today. Unable to put forth John Mac’s best proofs. Its just round 1. There’s a few rounds left in this debate.

And, still we still don’t have many examples of saved protestants seriously going off course, and joining satan’s team. That’s pretty good realworld proof of OSAS.

 

[Pax]

I was busy today. Unable to put forth John Mac’s best proofs. Its just round 1. There’s a few rounds left in this debate.

And, still we still don’t have many examples of saved protestants seriously going off course, and joining satan’s team. That’s pretty good realworld proof of OSAS.

brb in Christ,

I gave a lot on Judas and in my opinion none has been refuted. Give JohnMac’s best arguments or whatever, and we will go from there.

God bless.

 

[brb3]

I gave a lot on Judas and in my opinion none has been refuted. Give JohnMac’s best arguments or whatever, and we will go from there.

QUOTE]

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You’re are smart man, realizing it’s premature to declare victory … as did Carlan.

Lets stay with Judas. We have yet to deal with all scripture on him. As you say, many can’t decide on his initial salvation status … some calling him a believer become turncoat [you], and others saying he was never counted a true sheep John Mac, Moondweller ].

Perhaps you haven’t considered the OT prophesy regarding Judas ? I’ll present that case for the OSAS Protestants.

All the following come from prophet Zechariah.

11:7-17 So I became the shepherd of the flock doomed to be slain for those who traffficked in the sheep. And I took two staffs; one I named Grace, the other I named Union. And I tended the sheep. In one month I destroyed the three shepherds [Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees]. But I became impatient with them, and THEY ALSO DETESTED ME. So I said, “I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die; what is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed; and let those that are left devour the flesh of one another.” And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was annulled on that day, and the TRAFFICKERS in the sheep, WHO WERE WATCHING ME, knew that it was the word of the Lord. Then I said to them, “IT IT SEEMS RIGHT TO YOU, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, KEEP THEM.” AND THEY WEIGHED OUT as my wages thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the Lord. Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the implements of a worthless shepherd who does not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering, or heal the maimed, or nourish ths sound, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
Woe to my WORTHLESS SHEPHERD, WHO DESERTS THE FLOCK ! …”

This places Judas among the worthless, false shephards of Israel. Judas went to his leaders [the 3 false shepherd groups] … taking his wages from THEM, not from Christ.

---

Now, look at what Zechariah further says about the Good Shepherd Christ, and also
about the bad Jewish shepherds [those that traffick in the sheep].

13:1 "On that day [Day of the Cross], there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.

13:2-4 “And on that day, says the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more; and also I will remove from the land the prophets and the unclean spirit. And if any one again appears as a prophet, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord’ …”

13:7-9 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd [Judas, a false one], against the man who stands next to me,” says the Lord of hosts. … "Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones [Jewish poor, the oppressed, the Christians especially].

The above passage could be seen to have dual meaning. We all take it first to describe death of Christ … and the brief despair of the Apostles/Disciples until Easter. It also can describe ending of Judas, and within 40 years the fall of the 3 temple shepherd groups Judas answered to, and 2000 years of Jewish wandering in their wilderness w/o temple.

13:8-9 In the whole land, says the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perish [fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD], and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire [Pentecost H.S.], and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. THEY WILL CALL ON MY NAME, AND I WILL ANSWER THEM. I will say, ’ THEY ARE MY PEOPLE’; and they will say, ‘THE LORD IS MY GOD.’ "

---

14:9-11 And the Lord will become KING over all the earth; on that day {Easter Sunday]the Lord will be one and his name One. … JERUSALEM shall dwell IN SECURITY." ///// Salvation Assurance described, …yes ?

14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. /////// the Church, with need for Perseverance described, … yes ?

 

[Carlan]

I was busy today. Unable to put forth John Mac’s best proofs. Its just round 1. There’s a few rounds left in this debate.

And, still we still don’t have many examples of saved protestants seriously going off course, and joining satan’s team. That’s pretty good realworld proof of OSAS.

Hey Brb, do you really think any of them would admit,to we who are Catholics, that they ever fell off the track?God bless ya for sticking up for them anyway.Carlan

 

[brb3]

do you really think any of them would admit, to we who are Catholics, that they ever fell off the track?God bless ya for sticking up for them anyway.Carlan

Yes, many off them would. All of them perhaps could, … admit they have had Prodigal Son/Daughter occasions.

If Peter erred, so can we. We know that many priests have erred, and trust our Lord will restore them to their former status. But, thats the great mystery of our faith. How God in his providence comes to our rescue, … when we are washed up, down and out. Anyone who has once tasted of God’s love … will not ultimately reject their Father’s love.

Both Protestants and Catholics are the Elect. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. Many former Protestants are now Catholic, and vice versa. Its time for all to re-unite in brotherhood. That was Christ’s desire for the Elect … that will be the reality, very soon. Our Popes are dedicated to Ecumenism … it will happen, scipture is ALWAYS fulfilled.

I once believed OSAS, then Catholics told me it was errant. So, I went back to scriptures … and find OSAS is taught, and believed by the Apostles. And, I see that Catholics also believe it for THEMSELVES … just won’t say they can be sure about another. If, OSAS is defined correctly, as Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance … Salvation Assurance is one’s final reality, on our Last Day, if we don’t grow weary and confess those Mortals daily. Even if we did commit a mortal on our Last Day … our Lord would hear our contrite confession, on that last day.

Thats SALVATION ASSURANCE ! Faith that our Lord will never abandon us, FAITHFUL & TRUE til our last day … as St. John teaches in BOTH his Gospel & Epistles/Revelation.

And, the OT Prophets said the same. John correctly summarizes their prophesies on Salvation … in Revelations.

 

[Carlan]

Yes, many off them would. All of them perhaps could, … admit they have had Prodigal Son/Daughter occasions.

If Peter erred, so can we. We know that many priests have erred, and trust our Lord will restore them to their former status. But, thats the great mystery of our faith. How God in his providence comes to our rescue, … when we are washed up, down and out. Anyone who has once tasted of God’s love … will not ultimately reject their Father’s love.

Both Protestants and Catholics are the Elect. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. Many former Protestants are now Catholic, and vice versa. Its time for all to re-unite in brotherhood. That was Christ’s desire for the Elect … that will be the reality, very soon. Our Popes are dedicated to Ecumenism … it will happen, scipture is ALWAYS fulfilled.

I once believed OSAS, then Catholics told me it was errant. So, I went back to scriptures … and find OSAS is taught, and believed by the Apostles. And, I see that Catholics also believe it for THEMSELVES … just won’t say they can be sure about another. If, OSAS is defined correctly, as Spiritual Rebirth + Perseverance … Salvation Assurance is one’s final reality, on our Last Day, if we don’t grow weary and confess those Mortals daily. Even if we did commit a mortal on our Last Day … our Lord would hear our contrite confession, on that last day.

Thats SALVATION ASSURANCE ! Faith that our Lord will never abandon us, FAITHFUL & TRUE til our last day … as St. John teaches in BOTH his Gospel & Epistles/Revelation.

And, the OT Prophets said the same. John correctly summarizes their prophesies on Salvation … in Revelations.

Are you sure you are not dissenting , We can have a good inclinning if we as Catholic persevere in the state of sanctifying grace until the end, however,we must be very careful, that judgement will not be upon us until we are standing there at the pearly gates."We have been saved, we are being saved , we hope to be saved. You know don’t you what we are told about presumption? It is a very powerful tool of the evil one.

The way you are sharing certainly sounds like you couldbe come a keen candidate for the for the Calvinist followers.Peace, Carlan

 

[Pax]

…

Perhaps you haven’t considered the OT prophesy regarding Judas ? I’ll present that case for the OSAS Protestants.

All the following come from prophet Zechariah.

11:7-17 So I became the shepherd of the flock doomed to be slain for those who traffficked in the sheep. And I took two staffs; one I named Grace, the other I named Union. And I tended the sheep. In one month I destroyed the three shepherds [Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees]. But I became impatient with them, and THEY ALSO DETESTED ME. So I said, “I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die; what is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed; and let those that are left devour the flesh of one another.” And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was annulled on that day, and the TRAFFICKERS in the sheep, WHO WERE WATCHING ME, knew that it was the word of the Lord. Then I said to them, “IT IT SEEMS RIGHT TO YOU, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, KEEP THEM.” AND THEY WEIGHED OUT as my wages thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the Lord. Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Then the Lord said to me, “Take once more the implements of a worthless shepherd who does not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering, or heal the maimed, or nourish ths sound, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
Woe to my WORTHLESS SHEPHERD, WHO DESERTS THE FLOCK ! …”

This places Judas among the worthless, false shephards of Israel. Judas went to his leaders [the 3 false shepherd groups] … taking his wages from THEM, not from Christ.

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Now, look at what Zechariah further says about the Good Shepherd Christ, and also
about the bad Jewish shepherds [those that traffick in the sheep].

13:1 "On that day [Day of the Cross], there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.

13:2-4 “And on that day, says the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more; and also I will remove from the land the prophets and the unclean spirit. And if any one again appears as a prophet, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord’ …”

13:7-9 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd [Judas, a false one], against the man who stands next to me,” says the Lord of hosts. … "Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones [Jewish poor, the oppressed, the Christians especially].

The above passage could be seen to have dual meaning. We all take it first to describe death of Christ … and the brief despair of the Apostles/Disciples until Easter. It also can describe ending of Judas, and within 40 years the fall of the 3 temple shepherd groups Judas answered to, and 2000 years of Jewish wandering in their wilderness w/o temple.

13:8-9 In the whole land, says the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perish [fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD], and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire [Pentecost H.S.], and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. THEY WILL CALL ON MY NAME, AND I WILL ANSWER THEM. I will say, ’ THEY ARE MY PEOPLE’; and they will say, ‘THE LORD IS MY GOD.’ "

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14:9-11 And the Lord will become KING over all the earth; on that day {Easter Sunday]the Lord will be one and his name One. … JERUSALEM shall dwell IN SECURITY." ///// Salvation Assurance described, …yes ?

14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. /////// the Church, with need for Perseverance described, … yes ?

brb3 in Christ,

There are lots of problems here and I will not get into great detail. Instead, I’ll just highlight the problems. First of all it is a “huge” stretch to apply all of this to Judas. Secondly, none of it speaks to OSAS. It speaks to those that do wrong, but it does not speak to OSAS. Please explain how the "two thirds that will be “cut off” speaks to OSAS. That is the crux of the problem with OSAS. Paul makes this very clear when he speaks of those that are Christian believers that can be “cut off.” In Romans 11:19-22 Paul says:

You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Please be advised that the phrase “putting them into the fire and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested” is not a reference to Pentecost. Furthermore, what is the purpose of testing in reference to OSAS? Testing means nothing relative to OSAS. The entire idea and purpose of testing is contrary to OSAS.

cont. on next post:

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post:

The passages you gave merely point to people that turn away from the Lord “their” God; such things are examples that are contrary to OSAS and they do not affirm OSAS. You claim that none can permanently turn away, but scripture says otherwise. The OT examples you gave do not help your case. Please note that God became “impatient with them and that they also detested me[God]”. What happens next is a killer to OSAS. Your quote shows exactly what God did. It says:

“And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was annulled on that day”

We see more of this is Paul’s writings where he tells us in Galatians 6:7-9:

Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, **if **we do not lose heart.

OSAS proponents ignore the relationship aspects of “covenant.” Covenant is between parties. In this case the parties are God and man. The “covenant” is not simply one way. Man is part of the “covenant” relationship and that requires something of man that does not include turning away from the covenant relationship with God. The covenant can be annulled by turning from that relationship with God.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

…
…
14:9-11 And the Lord will become KING over all the earth; on that day {Easter Sunday]the Lord will be one and his name One. … JERUSALEM shall dwell IN SECURITY." ///// Salvation Assurance described, …yes ?

14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. /////// the Church, with need for Perseverance described, … yes ?

brb3 in Christ,

You might want to read the Haydock commentary on this set of passages. You can find it at: haydock1859.tripod.com/id724.html

Yes, the Church needs to persevere and so do individuals. Perseverance is required. Without perseverance one will fall away from salvation and be lost. Perseverance is a requirement and not simply “evidence.” The Church will persevere, but not all individuals that have been “justified” will necessarily persevere. This latter point is the one of the focal points of confusion by OSAS proponents.

God bless.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

Martin Luther removed some of the books from the New Testament which is prohibited in Revalation.

The first part of your sentence is correct. The last part is an interpretation that is an opinion (not an official stance of the Catholic Church). Usually only fundamentalists use the verse in Revelation to refer to the canon. It is generally thought that it refers only to Revelation.

Yes, I believe it is going against the principals of the Reformers. The principal of not “adding to or taking away” from Scripture was one of the principals of the reformers. Violating one’s own principles is what I was indicating as “going off the rails”.

 

[brb3]

You might want to read the Haydock commentary on this set of passages. You can find it at: haydock1859.tripod.com/id724.html

.

It gives similar interpretation … to what I’ve proposed.