Looking for passges to justify Abraham having a slave

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3) God inspires scripture to say the exact opposite of its literal meaning.
Some of Scripture is merely history. Details. Nothing wrong with that. People are born, live their lives, have children, go to war, murder and enslave each other, and die. They build things and record the dimensions in mind numbing lists. The writers record these things. They attempt to discern God’s will in all these events. The truth is not that people live and act and build things. The truth is that through all these trials and failures, God’s story continues…his invitation to mankind to love him and each other continues, despite our stupidity. Much of the OT is incidental human details., but God’s truth runs throughout.

But how can God’s truth run throughout if it’s completely and totally untrue from God’s perspective. At no point is there a correction. Never does Jesus, who was quite familiar with the scriptures, tell us God’s true meaning.
4) There is no allegorical or figurative reading of the scripture that shows God is against slavery.
That is easily debatable, unfortunately I don’t have the time to cite numerous scripture passages on a Saturday morning. God’s love and respect for the human dignity of every person is in there from the beginning from “He created them in his image”. The ancient mind did not have the same sensitivities to scripture we do. We can’t impose our minds on those of other cultures and times. We don’t really know how they thought. Understanding of God unfolds through time.

Can you cite one? If each and every passage that approves of slavery is incorrect from God’s persepective, how do we know what is intended when God says to love one another. It may be like the Indian caste system where respect is given based on position and birth, and when he says to love someone it means different things depending on if the person is a slave or a free man. Sure it’s speculation on my end; but when there are so many variables missing that we can’t know what God truly means from passage to passage we have to figure what works best.
Would you be willing to consider that as an atheist, you have the interesting viewpoint that humans should be like gods, perfect in expression and without biases or flaw? It takes a lot of belief to reject humanity’s weaknesses and expect godlike perfection from them.
Absolutely not. I accept that humans are riddled with flaws. Above I quoted Thomas Jefferson, a man I deeply respect despite his owning of slaves. But though I understand man’s flaws each man must take credit or blame for their actions. This isn’t someone being unaware of a point of fact and acting accordingly. Instead these are people who have some inkling of the human condition and were able to push those notions aside to justify owning slaves.
6) Despite the fact that scripture runs completely counter to what is intended and it is completely devoid of truth it was still inspired by God.
You’re mixing up human nature with God’s nature. Inspiration means the scriptures accomplish God’s purposes. It doesn’t mean that human beings give perfect expression of God’s will. It doesn’t mean that everything expressed is literally God’s will.

Why would God inspire verses to help propagate a practice that you and I both agree is wrong at its core?
The final product you refer to is embodied in the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ. The faith is not a book, it is a person. Jesus is God’s only and final word. There is nothing else that can be revealed. Jesus is it. The whole of scripture must be read in light of the person of Jesus Christ.
Our understanding of God’s will as expressed through Christ flourishes through time. God is always teaching us, and we learn slowly. God cannot contradict himself, human beings are contradicting. If humans inadequately express God’s will, that is not God’s fault, it is human fault.
How can we assume that it’s not God contradicting himself? All it does is raise further questions. When you say that scripture must be read in the light of the person of Jesus Christ, it makes it sound as though we are supposed to start with a conclusion and to set aside those items which contradict that conclusion.
Inspired scripture is not literal and fundamentalist as you are making it. Scripture is a living thing, as Jesus Christ lives. The Church expresses the truth of the Gospel over the centuries. The Church teaches the Gospel that every human person has God-given dignity. This is the light the scriptures must be read in. If read in the spirit of doubt and criticism, the truth of Jesus Christ cannot shine through. If the Church preaches the living Gospel, why do we want to stay stuck in mistaken notions of the past?
If you were a science teacher would you latch on the ancient notion that the earth is flat and hold the study of science to that mistaken notion? No, you go with the fullest understanding that has been revealed.
The problem is that God is said to be unchanging. The portrait of God changes from Old Testament to New. It’s not like the example you gave of an incorrect scientific theory being passed on forever. When something a scientist said turns out to be incorrect, we don’t then say that the scientist never said that. Facts are updated. Mistakes are recorded and not erased.
 
I will assume you just don’t understand that this is a misrepresentation of my case. I didn’t argue that violence is a necessary aspect of discipline, though I did argue that they are not necessarily incompatible… Discipline could involve violence, but it need not.
You may not think so but clearly God felt extreme violence was a necessary apect of discipline. The God character seems to thrive in it.
In part, that is determined by the rational ‘freedom’ of the person who is the ‘patient’ regarding discipline. If the patient is beyond their own rational control, then ‘violence’ in the sense of physical restraint or corrective measures might be required, when all else fails.
Once again a christian is limiting the power of God to justify actions that wouldn’t even pass muster from a fallible human.
I suspect that you bring into this discussion a view of God that is simply not the one of Judeo-Christian beliefs. God does NOT use any and all measures toward the end of “bringing people to him.” He doesn’t, for example, simply alter our mental states to bring us into compliance. There is an underlying respect for freedom vis a vis our internal thoughts and motivations which preclude his intervening in that way.
You suspect incorrectly. I’m not asking for mind control in this quest to bring his people closer to him. One of the key reasons why those that were slaves would not believe and worship in Yahweh is because there is no sign of his existence. This is a problem that God created and now uses outrageous cruelty to “fix”. There are a multitude of ways to bring people to him that don’t involve invading our thoughts and don’t involve completely hiding then forcing his chosen people to strip clean the humanity of someone and forcefeed that belief.
Personally, if I were a slave in those times and my master talked about the great wonders his god could perform, I’d question why this same god would be so impotent to require violence and blackmail from his followers to reveal his existence and his ultimate goodness.
Certainly, such options would make all external constraints unnecessary, but the fact that our personal subjective integrity is respected and never violated by God, does, in some ways, make necessary external sanctions, often by others in the human community. Parents, police, judicial authorities, bar bouncers, security guards, etc., are
all, at times, compelled to use physical constraint and even violence, to subdue and compel.
Do these cases make violence always excusable? No, but they to provide, at least, prima facie evidence that violence is at times an aspect of the human situation.
That case is true only insomuch that the violence is perpetrated against humans. In slavery, unlike all of the items you mentioned just above, the perpetrator is said to be a being who is purely good and without limit in power. Also unlike the items you mentioned, slaves have commited no crime. None. They are victims of fate and the playthings of people whose writings assuage any guilt in killing a man or taking away his family.
Obviously, if God wills, he could use a host of 'spoon-like’ discipline techniques to curb every human tendency towards evil. He doesn’t. The question is, ‘Why?’ His proclivity seems to be towards situational influences where we learn and grow organically from
consequences. That proclivity does not exclude times where he might deem the use of instrumental corrective measures as the optimal means by which to curtail or subdue specific evils.
It’s scattershot at best. I would hardly call the institution of slavery organic. I wouldn’t call someone evil because they have doubts in a god that had yet to make his presense known to him.
The problem is that we do not have access to the full body of data (internal subjective states, future consequences, far reaching impact, etc.) that God does in terms of taking moral action.
Then how can you say with any certainty that they are true? Perhaps the Heaven’s Gate people were right and that their spirits now ride the Hale-Bopp comet as their poisoned bodies remain on earth. Perhaps the slaves taken by Muslims have since found their joy and purpose in the afterlife with Allah, while slaves under christian rule suffer the doom
spoken of in the Quran. As you say, We don’t have the full body of data. We can say almost nothing with certainty when it comes to God and his thoughts.
 
I realize that you will read this as a case of special pleading
Indeed.
The word ‘forever’ seems misplaced regarding the temporal consequences of human pledges, in light of my comment above, in particular, if that pledge does in fact result in far more important eternal consequences.
Just as if you are wrong about those temporal consequences then forever is painfully accurate, as a man’s whole existence is wasted on the incorrect hope that something lies beyond.
I realize this idea seems nonsensical to ‘modern’ humans, but looking at those earth-bound humans who appear to possess complete freedom and unlimited access to the ‘external’ goods of the world, there are none that have anything worth trading essential ‘internal’ virtues for.
As I noted in my earlier post, it’s not a zero sum game. Who is to say that a person with external goods hasn’t also acquired “internal” virtues? They may not be the same as yours. It could be they have found inner peace through Buddhism or through charity.
The problem, again, comes from conflating external freedom with internal freedom. External freedom does not guarantee happiness. In fact, in the absence of true internal integrity and a clear understanding of ‘the good’ the result of this kind of freedom (licence) often highlights indelibly the woeful lack of interiority and real personal autonomy.
I would agree with that. Without a strong internal sense of goodness there is no guarantee of happiness no matter the wealth or freedom. But when someone is stripped of any and all external freedom, then any internal freedom is either difficult to gain or derives from a bootheel on the skull pressing one man’s concept of internal freedom into his victim.

To say external freedoms are not necessary to obtain internal freedom ignores the mockery of what those internal freedoms are supposed to represent. God should not spread hatred and evil if he is truly God. His goals can be met in an array of better ways.
 
Here is a transcript I worked up on the link that fisherman carl provided. It’s not anything that hasn’t already been brought up on this thread so far:
Michael in Long Island:
Atheist friend of mine who I debate often mentioned slavery in the Bible. And he mention the fact, or whatever that’s in the Bible, dealing with I think it’s Exodus 21. If a slave is captured – again I don’t have it verbatim – but the effect if a foreign slave is captured he can be your slave for life, and I’m just generalizing. I’m sure you’re familiar with the verses.
I was just wondering if you could help me to explain to him the Bible.
Jimmy Akin: This is a passage that some people might refer to as one of the dark passages of scripture that are kind of hard to understand. Pope Benedict talked about these in a document that came out a few years ago; and I’ve been reading a blog series on these so-called dark passages of scripture. If you Google “Jimmy Akin and dark passages” you’ll find them.
I don’t have one on this specific verse, but I can give you the principles that I would apply to it. Basically, one of the things you find in the Old Testament in particular is that God took the people of Israel at a very early stage of cultural development and over then time
led them toward a greater understanding of his will. And as a result they weren’t ready to follow God whole-heartedly instantly. And especially in the early phases of their history they had a lot of problems with things like idolatry, that it took God centuries to get him off of.
So he was patient with them, and at first he was willing to tolerate things that weren’t fully consistent with his will, and just tried to use the law to regulate them, to mitigate the damage that these things would do.
That’s very clear when you read a variety of Old Testament, of elements of the Old Testament law. They’re things that it’s clear that God’s trying to limit the harm that various ancient practices would do. A good example of that is the law of retailiation. You know an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? That’s actually a limit on the damage that was to be done to someone, because in the ancient world things were very brutal; and it could easily be that if you knocked out someone’s tooth they’d kill you.
And so what the law of retaliation is meant to do is limit that and say, “No. No. No. No. No. Don’t exact excessive revenge for an injury. Don’t exceed the actual injury itself in what you do in retaliation.” And so that’s an example of how God worked with the ancient law in Israel to limit the harm of various existing social institutions. In the same way, slavery was an existing acting social institution and God used the law to try to mitigate the damage that would do to various different kinds of slaves. And there were different regulations for different ones, but basically the law is not saying, “Yeah, yeah! Rah, rah, go slavery!” What it’s doing is trying to provide what protections the people of Israel would have been willing to tolerate at the time so that it can reign in the problems that the institution causes.
Mike from Long Island: So in other words, if the Bible had stated slavery is wrong, you can not have slaves, the Israelites would have rejected God?
Jimmy Akin: Yeah, just like if God had said no divorce right from the get-go they would have done the same thing. This is a point that Jesus makes when he’s questioned about divorce, because people ask him and he says God gave them that law through Moses because your hearts were hard. You weren’t ready to accept the fullness of his will; but eventually that gets proclaimed through Jesus Christ.
 
Here is a transcript I worked up on the link that fisherman carl provided. It’s not anything that hasn’t already been brought up on this thread so far:
Re: Jimmy Akin
I respect him immensely and agree with his measured and calm approach to many issues, but I am not seeing how his take represented in your quote presents the full picture of Catholic scripture interpretation.

He seems to be saying that God was not willing to express himself definitively, fully, and clearly for fear of pushing the Israelites away from him.
I think rather, the Church teaches that the Israelites were simply ignorant in many ways of God’s will. OT scripture writers simply did not have adequate understanding or expression of God’s will. Maybe we could say they were somewhat spiritually deaf and blind, just like we are today in many ways.

God could never have condoned slavery at any time, because he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He did not tolerate a little bit of evil one day to coddle us eventually into line with him. God simply does not tolerate evil, ever, at any time or place. Evil is not who God is. I don’t see how he can express himself in a way that is incompatible with that.

Fundamental to the Christian understanding of God is that he is unchanging. Variations in understanding of who God is belongs to humans, not God.
Understanding of God’s revealed will flourishes through time. Jesus is the fullness of revelation. The Tradition of the Church comes to ever-fuller understanding of revelation. But the whole of scripture must be read in light of the Gospel, which is the person of Jesus Christ.

I respectfully believe the Mr Akin is seeing complexity in God’s will where there is none, in an effort to defend the authenticity and inspiration of scripture. I respect that effort, but I don’t think the integrity of scripture needs to be defended in this way. Remember, the authors are human beings living in a particular culture, with a particular understanding of who God is. They are writing inspired scripture, but their ancient understanding, almost by definition (they don’t have the Gospel), is incomplete. The author of scripture does not need to have perfect and literal understanding in order to be cooperating with God’s will in an inspired way. God uses people as he wills, as they are, with all our imperfections. In fact one of the truths that comes through the OT is, that God is faithful to us despite that fact that human beings are obviously stupid and evil. You can’t expect perfect expression and understanding of God’s will, because it does not exist in human beings.

I wish Mr Akin were her to flesh out his take on this as I am sure there are things we don’t understand about his point of view here.
 
I wanted to add that the passage about divorce is instructive. It is so abundantly clear that the OT law had an imperfect understanding of God’s will:
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” 7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Jesus himself immediately points out that God’s will contradicts their understanding of scripture: “have you not read…the two shall become one flesh”
They protest that Moses says differently.
Jesus responds that Moses was dealing with the hardness of their hearts,
and reminds them: “but from the beginning” .
There cannot be a much more definitive statement from Jesus himself about what God willed “from the beginning”.

In other words, human beings are simply ignorant at times of God’s will.
 
Also, are you asking about Abraham in the bible or Abraham Lincoln? If Abraham from the bible then can you provide a verse that says he had a slave as I do not remember one.
There are many, just re-read the story of Abraham. Hagar was a slave, although she is often referred to as a maid or servant. Even so, the word “slave” is expressly used in the NAB in many places, for example Gen 17:23.

Obviously it is true that the Bible supports slavery. It is also true that the Church supported slavery for most of its history. It is also true that slavery is inherently wrong. This doesn’t mean there is no God, or that the Bible is not truly inspired, but it certainly makes clear that human beings are fallible and often do bad things, including human beings in the Church hierarchy and those depicted in the Bible. To pretend otherwise is not helpful to faith (or reason), as evidenced on this thread.
 
The difference between pagan chattel slavery and the Hebrew laws on slaves is that pagan chattel slavery was for LIFE, and the slaves of the pagans had no rights. In pagan chattel slavery, a slave was born a slave and died a slave with all of their generations also born into the same condition with no hope of getting out. The pagan Spartans would randomly select a slave to slaughter each new year to reassert their dominance and instill fear in the slaves. By contrast, it was written into the Hebrew law that a slave was to be set free in the seventh year. And the slave of a Hebrew had to be treated well. If they would suffer a permanent injury by the hand of their master they would be set free. This was also written in Hebrew law. So, how slavery was in practice with the ancient Jews was like how workers get treated today. As someone else has said, we just call it a different name today. The slavery that African Americans experienced was the pagan chattel slavery model which was copied from ancient Rome and Greece (the Spartans and Athenians). The United States model of government was almost a direct copy of these ancient pagan societies but with a Christian veneer. That’s why the government buildings in Washington D.C. look like pagan temples and why the country has a giant statue of a pagan goddess (the Statue of Liberty).
 
The difference between pagan chattel slavery and the Hebrew laws on slaves is that pagan chattel slavery was for LIFE, and the slaves of the pagans had no rights. In pagan chattel slavery, a slave was born a slave and died a slave with all of their generations also born into the same condition with no hope of getting out. The pagan Spartans would randomly select a slave to slaughter each new year to reassert their dominance and instill fear in the slaves. By contrast, it was written into the Hebrew law that a slave was to be set free in the seventh year. And the slave of a Hebrew had to be treated well. If they would suffer a permanent injury by the hand of their master they would be set free. This was also written in Hebrew law. So, how slavery was in practice with the ancient Jews was like how workers get treated today. As someone else has said, we just call it a different name today. The slavery that African Americans experienced was the pagan chattel slavery model which was copied from ancient Rome and Greece (the Spartans and Athenians). The United States model of government was almost a direct copy of these ancient pagan societies but with a Christian veneer. That’s why the government buildings in Washington D.C. look like pagan temples and why the country has a giant statue of a pagan goddess (the Statue of Liberty).
There is an equivocation of the word ‘slavery’ that has been occurring on this issue, generally, and on this thread, in particular. It is the same kind of equivocation that would view all ‘killing’ as wrong, all ‘lying’ as wrong and all ‘stealing’ as wrong without regard for circumstances or the motives or limited options of those operating within compromised situations.

To claim that slavery is always wrong or that killing is always wrong is to make a general statement, which, like all general statements, (including this one) is only vacuously true. Obviously, killing is NOT always wrong, even though it sounds as if an important moral notion is being denied or abandoned.

Yes it would, on the surface, appear to be making any moral agent who did not officially subscribe to the belief that ‘killing is wrong’ into a moral monster, but that would be wrongheaded, since killing in some circumstances and under some motivations would be the necessary moral obligation. Therefore, to claim that the God of the Bible is morally deficient BECAUSE it does not anywhere clearly state his absolute prohibition on all killing simply misses the point that within a world imbued with evil, killing is at times necessary.

Now it would be necessary to engage in a great deal of discussion surrounding the role and responsibility God has for allowing evil to ‘flourish’ as it does - and that is an important and germane question in this discussion.

Given, however, that evil is an aspect of Earthly human reality, then the question of the role of apparent evils such as killing, slavery, confinement, theft, withholding the truth, deception, dispossession of goods, etc., all must be assessed within context and with regard to how these pertain to ultimate or, at least, a legitimate prioritizing of ‘the good.’

If human society were fully good, period, then killing would be wrong, period. Human society is NOT fully good, therefore some killing is necessarily permitted to prevent further evil. A similar case can be made, in principle, regarding the lawful confinement or detainment of human beings to prevent evil.

A case can, I suspect, also be made for some forms of indentured servitude or some forms of ‘slavery’ given factors such as the absence of a judicial system, absence of health or welfare safety nets, paucity of resources, etc. If, for example, a legal contract or sentence by a judge, in modern times, can legitimately bind individuals for a period of time and restrict their freedoms, it would not be difficult to imagine that under different social or physical conditions, individual freedoms might legitimately be curtailed in other ways.

Does this mean all forms of slavery might be permitted? No. However, what needs to be more clearly understood is what forms were permitted in the OT and for what reasons before we make assumptions about what ‘slavery’ meant under the Law.

The point made by Mike that slaves were harshly treated as a consequence of the Law, appears, at first blush very problematic, until we are reminded that every act contrary to the Law had dire consequences. Even ordinary Jewish citizens, not merely slaves, would suffer severe consequences for violations of the Law. In this respect, at least, slaves were not subject to treatment far different to the treatment accorded everyone else.
 
There is an equivocation of the word ‘slavery’ that has been occurring on this issue, generally, and on this thread, in particular. It is the same kind of equivocation that would view all ‘killing’ as wrong, all ‘lying’ as wrong and all ‘stealing’ as wrong without regard for circumstances or the motives or limited options of those operating within compromised situations.

To claim that slavery is always wrong or that killing is always wrong is to make a general statement, which, like all general statements, (including this one) is only vacuously true. Obviously, killing is NOT always wrong, even though it sounds as if an important moral notion is being denied or abandoned.

Yes it would, on the surface, appear to be making any moral agent who did not officially subscribe to the belief that ‘killing is wrong’ into a moral monster, but that would be wrongheaded, since killing in some circumstances and under some motivations would be the necessary moral obligation. Therefore, to claim that the God of the Bible is morally deficient BECAUSE it does not anywhere clearly state his absolute prohibition on all killing simply misses the point that within a world imbued with evil, killing is at times necessary.

Now it would be necessary to engage in a great deal of discussion surrounding the role and responsibility God has for allowing evil to ‘flourish’ as it does - and that is an important and germane question in this discussion.

Given, however, that evil is an aspect of Earthly human reality, then the question of the role of apparent evils such as killing, slavery, confinement, theft, withholding the truth, deception, dispossession of goods, etc., all must be assessed within context and with regard to how these pertain to ultimate or, at least, a legitimate prioritizing of ‘the good.’

If human society were fully good, period, then killing would be wrong, period. Human society is NOT fully good, therefore some killing is necessarily permitted to prevent further evil. A similar case can be made, in principle, regarding the lawful confinement or detainment of human beings to prevent evil.

A case can, I suspect, also be made for some forms of indentured servitude or some forms of ‘slavery’ given factors such as the absence of a judicial system, absence of health or welfare safety nets, paucity of resources, etc. If, for example, a legal contract or sentence by a judge, in modern times, can legitimately bind individuals for a period of time and restrict their freedoms, it would not be difficult to imagine that under different social or physical conditions, individual freedoms might legitimately be curtailed in other ways.

Does this mean all forms of slavery might be permitted? No. However, what needs to be more clearly understood is what forms were permitted in the OT and for what reasons before we make assumptions about what ‘slavery’ meant under the Law.

The point made by Mike that slaves were harshly treated as a consequence of the Law, appears, at first blush very problematic, until we are reminded that every act contrary to the Law had dire consequences. Even ordinary Jewish citizens, not merely slaves, would suffer severe consequences for violations of the Law. In this respect, at least, slaves were not subject to treatment far different to the treatment accorded everyone else.
I understand what you are saying, but for the sake of the discussion, we have to have a common sense of what slavery is, which is, our modern sense of it, since we don’t live in ancient times. In fact this is one of the reasons we don’t take the bible in a fundamentalist and literalist sense, simply because we cannot have the full sense of what authors from another time wrote, because well, we don’t live in the same culture.
 
I understand what you are saying, but for the sake of the discussion, we have to have a common sense of what slavery is, which is, our modern sense of it, since we don’t live in ancient times. In fact this is one of the reasons we don’t take the bible in a fundamentalist and literalist sense, simply because we cannot have the full sense of what authors from another time wrote, because well, we don’t live in the same culture.
When atheists attack Christianity they always do it as if starting out from a bible-alone fundamentalist way of looking at it.
 
When atheists attack Christianity they always do it as if starting out from a bible-alone fundamentalist way of looking at it.
Yes that is interesting. Those who claim to dislike religious fundamentalism sometimes insist on it or pigeonhole others into it.
 
I understand what you are saying, but for the sake of the discussion, we have to have a common sense of what slavery is, which is, our modern sense of it, since we don’t live in ancient times. In fact this is one of the reasons we don’t take the bible in a fundamentalist and literalist sense, simply because we cannot have the full sense of what authors from another time wrote, because well, we don’t live in the same culture.
I am unconvinced that slavery was so different in ancient times. Genesis says that Abraham bought some of his slaves, but that others were born into slavery. That sounds like life-long chattel slavery - not short term indentured servitude. Genesis also says that when Abraham’s wife could not conceive, he had sex with his slave to get an heir - so slavery involved sexual exploitation as well.

Even if none of that were true, it is certainly true that Christians (including Catholics) used the existence of Biblical slavery to justify modern slavery at least through the US Civil War. The argument that ancient slavery was somehow different seems to me like a modern invention to excuse the inexcusable.
 
**I am unconvinced that slavery was so different **in ancient times. Genesis says that Abraham bought some of his slaves, but that others were born into slavery. That sounds like life-long chattel slavery - not short term indentured servitude. Genesis also says that when Abraham’s wife could not conceive, he had sex with his slave to get an heir - so slavery involved sexual exploitation as well.

Even if none of that were true, it is certainly true that Christians (including Catholics) used the existence of Biblical slavery to justify modern slavery at least through the US Civil War. The argument that ancient slavery was somehow different seems to me like a modern invention to excuse the inexcusable.
I would tend to agree with you. It seems the people were not employing the same moral principles in those societies, unfortunately.
 
I am unconvinced that slavery was so different in ancient times. Genesis says that Abraham bought some of his slaves, but that others were born into slavery. That sounds like life-long chattel slavery - not short term indentured servitude. Genesis also says that when Abraham’s wife could not conceive, he had sex with his slave to get an heir - so slavery involved sexual exploitation as well.

Even if none of that were true, it is certainly true that Christians (including Catholics) used the existence of Biblical slavery to justify modern slavery at least through the US Civil War. The argument that ancient slavery was somehow different seems to me like a modern invention to excuse the inexcusable.
It seems to me that you are guilty of the same error as these ‘Christians’ you point to. Just as modern slave owners used a misconception (the two slaveries were the same) to justify their treatment of human beings, so, too, you use that same misconception to view OT forms of servitude as inexcusable.

The point being, if they were inherently different forms of ‘slavery,’ modern slave owners would have no warrant for using the OT to justify their treatment of human beings in the manner they do. AND you would have to abandon your presumptions into what ‘slavery’ meant in the OT to adequately address the issue concerning how justified it was independent of our preconceptions about chattel slavery.

It seems to me that you are advocating that we view the issue with our biases intact rather than getting at the truth of it.
 
It seems to me that you are guilty of the same error as these ‘Christians’ you point to. Just as modern slave owners used a misconception (the two slaveries were the same) to justify their treatment of human beings, so, too, you use that same misconception to view OT forms of servitude as inexcusable.

The point being, if they were inherently different forms of ‘slavery,’ modern slave owners would have no warrant for using the OT to justify their treatment of human beings in the manner they do. AND you would have to abandon your presumptions into what ‘slavery’ meant in the OT to adequately address the issue concerning how justified it was independent of our preconceptions about chattel slavery.

It seems to me that you are advocating that we view the issue with our biases intact rather than getting at the truth of it.
I guess I have trouble getting at a “truth” that justifies a man owing a woman for the purpose of forcing her to have sex with him. I think I have a pretty good idea what they did, and why. Just as I understand why some ancient societies practiced human sacrifice. Understanding can mitigate my view of their individual and subjective blame for the society they lived in, but it does not allow me (just me here) to conclude that the practice was moral or justified.
 
I guess I have trouble getting at a “truth” that justifies a man owing a woman for the purpose of forcing her to have sex with him. I think I have a pretty good idea what they did, and why. Just as I understand why some ancient societies practiced human sacrifice. Understanding can mitigate my view of their individual and subjective blame for the society they lived in, but it does not allow me (just me here) to conclude that the practice was moral or justified.
Right. God does not change. He does not condone a given behavior in 3000bc and not condone it in 2014.
So what changes? Man’s understanding of morality and expression of it.

I think sometimes culpability gets mixed up with morality here. The culpability of a person living in an ancient society which condoned a practice that the Gospel shows to be immoral is probably mitigated. (I don’t know, just surmising). The person may not be culpable because he does not know that what he does is wrong. I would be culpable for the same action because I have fuller knowledge of the morality in play.
The fact that an ancient person may not be culpable for an action does not mean the action he commits is moral.
 
I guess I have trouble getting at a “truth” that justifies a man owing a woman for the purpose of forcing her to have sex with him. I think I have a pretty good idea what they did, and why. Just as I understand why some ancient societies practiced human sacrifice. Understanding can mitigate my view of their individual and subjective blame for the society they lived in, but it does not allow me (just me here) to conclude that the practice was moral or justified.
The only way to begin to understand God’s relationship to us is to start by recognizing that in our faith we have a familial relationship with God. He is our Father, and we are His children. Mothers and fathers are patient with their children when they are small but expect more from them when they reach maturity. God is the same way. God was patient with us through early salvation history and accepted ancient man as he was. But then gradually God introduced higher expectations on His people until those expectations reached fulfillment when the second person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus, became man and preached the fullness of what God expects of us.

Chattel slavery was invented by the pagans. In the time of Abraham, and long before, pagan chattel slavery was the norm. And in that system of slavery slaves had absolutely no rights, not even the right to live. They could be randomly selected to be slaughtered by the pagan slave masters for no reason other than to strike fear into them. Then came Abraham and later Moses and the Hebrew laws on how to treat a slave which was revolutionary because for the first time “slaves” actually had rights that were guaranteed to them in the law. And in the Hebrew system a slave was set FREE not only in the seventh year but also if they were abused and were to suffer a permanent injury. This would have discouraged any slave owner from abusing them since it would mean that they have to set the slave free. What the atheists are doing is they are trying to remove the splinter in the eye of Christian history while ignoring the the plank in the eye of pagan history.
 
The only way to begin to understand God is to start by recognizing that in our faith we have a familial relationship with God. He is our Father, and we are His children. Mothers and fathers are patient with their children when they are small but expect more from them when they reach maturity. God is the same way. God was patient with us through early salvation history and accepted ancient man as he was. But then gradually God introduced higher expectations on His people until those expectations reached fulfillment when the second person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus, became man and preached the fullness of what God expects of us.

In the time of Abraham, and long before, pagan chattel slavery was the norm. Chattel slavery was invented by the pagans. And in that system of slavery slaves had absolutely no rights, not even the right to live. They could be randomly selected to be slaughtered by the pagan slave masters for no reason other than to strike fear into them. Then came Abraham and later Moses and the Hebrew laws on how to treat a slave which was revolutionary because for the first time “slaves” actually had rights that were guaranteed to them in the law. And in the Hebrew system a slave was set FREE not only in the seventh year but also if they were abused and were to suffer a permanent injury. This would have discouraged any slave owner from abusing them since it would mean that they have to set the slave free. What the atheists are doing is they are trying to remove the splinter in the eye of Christian history while ignoring the the plank in the eye of pagan history.
I agree with much of what you are saying, except that I would point out that only male Isrealite slaves were set free every seventh year - not foreign slaves. Also, the Hebrew law was certainly an advancement on primitive lawlessness, but it was not the only or even the first attempt in history to mandate treating slaves better.

All that said, what does not help with either evangelizing non-Christians or teaching Christians is to somehow pretend that it was OK to have slaves in ancient times, or that slavery in ancient times was some idyllic and loving practice.

P.S. it is also unhelpful to associate modern atheists with ancient pagans, there is no real connection there, certainly less connection than that between modern Christians and ancient Jews.
 
I agree with much of what you are saying, except that I would point out that only male Isrealite slaves were set free every seventh year - not foreign slaves. Also, the Hebrew law was certainly an advancement on primitive lawlessness, but it was not the only or even the first attempt in history to mandate treating slaves better.

**All that said, what does not help with either evangelizing non-Christians or teaching Christians is to somehow pretend that it was OK to have slaves in ancient times, or that slavery in ancient times was some idyllic and loving practice. **
P.S. it is also unhelpful to associate modern atheists with ancient pagans, there is no real connection there, certainly less connection than that between modern Christians and ancient Jews.
Or that God condoned and willed it, along with all manner of other atrocities, because the OT authors document it and perceive that God willed it, when in fact much of it is incompatible with his nature.
I would venture to say that misunderstanding what it means to be an “inspired” author is responsible for many people rejecting Christianity, because God is seen as condoning these things, or being a hypocrite, which of course God cannot do or be.

Livingwordunity has a good post talking about the fullness of what God reveals to us in Jesus Christ, which is the only lens the whole of scripture can be seen through.👍
 
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