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d_maximus5

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I have alot of questions, so please bear with me.

The catholic church is constantly attacked for certain traditions, beliefs, or symbols contained within buildings etc.

I’m looking for clear understanding so as to help myself as well as people I know, both friends and family, understand why something is the way it is.

Question 1.

The obelisk in St. Peters square, why is it there?
Does it not go back to egyptology and symbolize a phallic symbol and other pagan beliefs?
Is it not a symbol widely used by the occult and are found throughout the world?

We can start with these questions.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to assist my understanding.
 
The obelisk accusation sounds a lot like reverse engineering to me.

The cross. Pagan symbol of death. Hated and feared universally. Did God convert it, via the shedding of His Blood, into the universal symbol of life?
 
Others will give you a sufficient answer, but I’ll start by pointing out that obelisk means spear, not phallus, and just because something is taller than it is wide does not make it a pagan fertility symbol.

Visit there sometime and take good photos of it and find out just how pagan it really is. Read up on what’s inside the topper and what’s carved in the sides.

Also, to tempt you to study this *on your own *in greater depth, I’m telling you there is far, far more going on … architecturally, geometrically, astronomically, theologically, historically … in that square, than just the obelisk.
 
d_maximus5, welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.
Hopefully in time all your questions will be answered. 🙂
God bless you

As you know, many great works would have been lost if the Vatican hadn’t preserved them

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter’s_Square

From a Christian viewpoint this obelisk was silent witness of many early Christian martyrdoms.

“The Emperor Augustus had it moved to the Julian Forum of Alexandria, where it stood until year 37 A.D., when Caligula ordered the forum demolished and the obelisk transferred to Rome. He placed it in the center of the Circus, where it would preside over Nero’s countless brutal games and Christian executions.”
 
Trishie said:
From a Christian viewpoint this obelisk was silent witness of many early Christian martyrdoms.

“The Emperor Augustus had it moved to the Julian Forum of Alexandria, where it stood until year 37 A.D., when Caligula ordered the forum demolished and the obelisk transferred to Rome. He placed it in the center of the Circus, where it would preside over Nero’s countless brutal games and Christian executions.”
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Precisely. The Romans were the one who brought the obelisk back from Egypt as a trophy. It stood in the stadium where horrific martyrdoms occurred. The obelisk remains as a marker and reminder of those persecutions, and what early Christians had to suffer through at the hands of the Roman government.
 
The obelisk is actually a trophy of the Church’s triumph over paganism. It was a pagan symbol but carved into the St. Peter’s obelisk, and other obelisks around the city are the words “Christus vincit! Christis regnat! Christus imperat!” which means Christ conquers! Christ rules! Christ reigns!

Basically a reminder that Christ conquered the power of paganism represented by the obelisk.
 
Thanks for welcoming me everyone,

So in essense, if I’m not mistaken in understanding what is being said, the obelisk found there is a museum piece in relation to the history of the Roman persecution of the christians, and not that its utilized in Church traditions or rituals. I do understand how the symbol of the cross was converted to a symbol of life by the blood of Christ.

Does obelisk fall into the catergory of a pagan symbol being converted from pagan to christian or is it just a musuem piece?

This leads me to ask if there are other symbols of pagan origin, such as the Cross, that are found in the church and have been converted through the blood of Christ to now be symbols of righteousness or Christianity?

Also is there any catholic literature that I can read that goes into symbols found in the church?
 
I still like the fact that satanic occults often use an upside down cross as a symbol of disrespect, although it is the personal symbol of Saint Peter.
 
=d_maximus5;7342735]I have alot of questions, so please bear with me.
Click to expand...
The catholic church is constantly attacked for certain traditions, beliefs, or symbols contained within buildings etc.
Click to expand...
I’m looking for clear understanding so as to help myself as well as people I know, both friends and family, understand why something is the way it is.
Click to expand...
Question 1.
Click to expand...
The obelisk in St. Peters square, why is it there?
Does it not go back to egyptology and symbolize a phallic symbol and other pagan beliefs?
Is it not a symbol widely used by the occult and are found throughout the world?
Click to expand...
We can start with these questions.
Click to expand...
Thank you in advance for taking the time to assist my understanding.
Click to expand...
"From: 'Seminarians Guide’

***Obelisk is from obeliscus - “in the shape of a spear”. For pagans, the obelisk was a solar symbol that represented a vital flow between heaven and earth, a way of communicating to the divine. ***

As a pagan monument in the greatest Christian square, it is a symbol of humanity reaching out to Christ. Originally inscribed to “Divine Augustus” and “Divine Tiberius” and now dedicated to the Holy Cross - “Christus Vincit, Christus Regnat, Christus Imperat. Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat.” It is topped by a bronze cross containing a fragment of the true Cross.

From ‘St. Peter’s - Guide to the Basilica and Square’
A large pink granite obelisk can be admired in the center of the square. It was hewn from a single block and stands 25.31 m. high on a base 8.25 m. wide. The obelisk which comes from Heliopolis, Egypt, where it was built by the Pharaoh Mencares in 1835 BC in honor of the sun, was brought to Rome in 37 BC by the Emperor Caligula (37-41) and erected in the circus he built. Here it was silent witness of the martyrdom of St. Peter and of many other Christians. In 1586 Sixtus V had it moved to the center of St. Peter’s Square. This operation, which required hundreds of workmen, was directed by Domenico Fontana with the help of his brother, Giovanni, and took four months. It was erected on September 10, 1586 by 900 men using 140 horses and 44 winches."
 
The fish…anchor, lamb. See The Catholic Encyclopedia under symbol as a start.

Peace
 
One symbol that comes into my mind is Celtic cross. Contrary to some bogus claims, Celtic cross is christian symbol, not a pagan symbol. It is a christian adaptation of earlier pagan symbol which looked like circle and a cross in it. That pagan symbol represented the Sun, like a chariot wheel of fire (cause Sun travels across sky - and that explains its features: circle and four lines in it, like in chariot wheel). So we get a Celtic cross by superimposing Latin cross over this pagan symbol (chariot wheel of fire).

As I understand it, adaptation of pagan symbols is great way to show victory of one true God over false idols, and it can be used to show people the truth.

I did not get this info from some book:blush:, but actually youtube video (I know, that is not best refernce, but hey): youtube.com/watch?v=AJ7ZoQPtf5w At cca 03 minutes he gets into explaining the Celtic Cross. It is made by user labarum312, he is an anglican, and it is part of a great series Contra Zeitgeist, I would recommend you watch it all, it has some great info for start.

I always restrain from giving info without solid reference, but in this case I believe this information is good.
 
On our pilgrimage to Rome in 2007, we were told that it was from Egypt and was in the Circus which occupied part of what is now the Vatican State. Next to the Circus was a Roman Burial Ground where St Peter is buried.

Constanine built the original St Peter’s over St Peter’s grave in the 300s. Today’s St Peter’s was built some 1200 years later. In making space for the much larger St Peter’s and the Vatican State, the Obelisk was moved to its present location. In leveling a larger portion of the hill, they also relocated St Peter’s grave. The dome of St Peter’s is directly over St Peter’s grave.

In preparing a place to bury Pope Pius XI in 1939 they dug and hit a man made structure. Pope Pius XII let them continue excavating quietly for fear of the Nazis in WW II and they uncovered St Peter’s Grave. Public announcement was made several yeas after WW II and after all was vetted to be true.

The tour down to St Peter’s Grave is one tough ticket to get. Too much human breathe and persperation are of concern in trying to preserve old stuff and thewalking area is narrow. Our group was one of the most fortunate to take the Scavi Tour. Other restoration work of that ancient Roman Burial Ground was in progress when we were there in March 2007. Amazing to see Italian artisans at work behind glass windows.
 
If you visit the Vatican Museums you will probably be shocked by all the pagan Greek & Roman naked statuary. Michaelangelo included the Sybils on Sistine Chapel. The Pope didn’t seem to mind.

Any work of art or nature can be thought of as evil, depending on your mind set. Thankfully we no longer live in the Age of Puritanism but I notice the American mind is still very prudish and easily shocked - perhaps a legacy of the Pilgrim Fathers who abhorred all graven images. As far as we know Adam & Eve were created naked - and God thought that it was good…
 
Katholish said:
The obelisk is actually a trophy of the Church’s triumph over paganism. It was a pagan symbol but carved into the St. Peter’s obelisk, and other obelisks around the city are the words “Christus vincit! Christis regnat! Christus imperat!” which means Christ conquers! Christ rules! Christ reigns!

Basically a reminder that Christ conquered the power of paganism represented by the obelisk.
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Excellent quote.

I hadn’t realized that the obelisk had the carving placed in it. Beautiful!
Christus vincit! Christis regnat! Christus imperat!
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which means:
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Christ conquers! Christ rules! Christ reigns!
Click to expand...
 
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