Lord of the Rings Catholic themes

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You have to decide for yourself whether it is an allegory or not.
I am giving the evidence from history that it is an allegory (despite claims to the contrary by Tolkien).
You have to read exactly what he said and decide why he said it:

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” JRR Tolkien
  1. He dislikes allegory (Didn’t say LOTR is not an allegory)
  2. He prefers history (My detailed one for one interpretation is based 100% on Catholic/European history and it more or less agrees with the facts.)
 
drforjc said:
Leekhongian,

Somewhere in his writings Tolkien expressly indicates that his work is not the kind of detailed allegory, with all the exact one-to-one correlations, that you describe.

That being said, as readers we are obviously free to perceive them and imagine the story that way.

That’s perfectly fine; I’m just pointing out that Tolkien himself didn’t intend it as an encoded allegory.
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One of the hallmarks of a great work is that it kindles the imagination in many ways and layers of meaning.

Those Wiki findings may be cool, but I agree, LOTR is not to be nailed down that way.
 
leekonghian said:
You have to decide for yourself whether it is an allegory or not.
I am giving the evidence from history that it is an allegory (despite claims to the contrary by Tolkien).
You have to read exactly what he said and decide why he said it:

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” JRR Tolkien
  1. He dislikes allegory (Didn’t say LOTR is not an allegory)
  2. He prefers history (My detailed one for one interpretation is based 100% on Catholic/European history and it more or less agrees with the facts.)
Click to expand...
However, there may be historical relations to his elements, but he states that it is not in the letter written to a publisher.

Tolkein states in that same letter that the purpose of his story is to create an epic mythology for Anglo Saxons similar to what Nordic legends are to their culture.

One can try to find allegory there all they can, but it wasn’t in the authors original intent.
 
leekonghian said:
Does anyone know if there is a hidden satire or meaning behind the Lord of the Rings books?
JRR Tolkien was a devout Catholic and he spent 40 years writing the Lord of the Rings.
He was also a member of the Inklings and a close friend of CS Lewis (who portrays Jesus Christ as the lion Aslan in his books).

When you look at it, the map of Middle Earth is like similar to that of Western Europe.
The following countries are thus represented:
Gondor = Italy
Minas Tirith = Rome
Isengard = Constantinople
Minas Ithil = Alexandria
Mordor = Palestine
Shire = England

The characters may be portrayed as such:
Gandalf = Pope
Aragorn = Christian Roman Emperor (eg Charlemagne or Constantine)
Sauron = Muslim leader (eg Saladin or Suleiman the Magnificent) or Satan
Saruman = Patriach of Constantinople
Sharkey’s men at the Shire = Protestants
Denethor = Other Roman Emperor(s)
Frodo = Jesus Christ
Samwise Gamgee = St Peter the Apostle
Gollum = Judas Iscariot
Orcs = Muslims/Turks

The story may represent the history of the Crusades as well as the history of the Catholic Church.
Among the areas covered are:
Treason of Isengard = Scism between the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox Churches.
Destruction of Isengard by treants = Plundering of Constantinople by crusaders.
Plundering of the Shire = Iconoclasm and plundering of Church property by Protestants.

The war with Mordor represents the Crusades, which are ongoing and will result in stalemate or defeat if not for the actions of Frodo in bringing the ring to Mount Doom (Jesus bringing the burden of sin on the cross at Golgotha/Calvary.)
Frodo is accompanied by his servant, the faithful Samwise Gamgee (portraying St Peter) and the treacherous Gollum (portraying Judas Iscariot). Thanks to Gollum’s (and Judas’) greed, the mission of Frodo (and Jesus) was successful.

Following on from my interpretation as above.
The five Istari (or Wizards) may represent the five ancient Apostolic Sees of ancient Christianity.
The five Istari are:
Saruman the White (representing the Patriarch of Constantinople)
Gandalf the Grey (representing the Patriarch of Rome / Pope)
Radagast the Brown (representing the Patriarch of Jerusalem)
Alatar & Pallando the Blue (representing the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria – not sure which is which)
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No. Just no. Tolkien would be horrified.

:crying::tsktsk::banghead::doh2::dts: :hey_bud:
 
leekonghian said:
Also compare the following elements of Catholic/Christian history with the Lord of the Rings
  1. Compare the Istari with the Pentarchy
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy
    The Istari or Wizards are Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. (The last two are named in Wikipedia).
    The Pentarchy are the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria.
  2. Compare the Treason of Isengard with the Great (East-West) Schism
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism
    Gandalf and Saruman fell out with each other. Compare this with the Great Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.
  3. Compare the Destruction of Isengard with the Sack of Constantinople
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade#Sack_of_Constantinople
    The Ents destroyed Isengard while the Crusaders sacked Constantinople.
  4. Compare Plundering of the Shire by Sharkey’s men with the Rise of Protestantism in England
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism#Anglicanism
    King Henry VIII broke away from the Roman Catholic Chruch and formed Anglicanism.
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See above.
 
You guys got way into this. Can’t believe this thread is still active haha :jrbirdman:
 
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision”
JRR Tolkien

“And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge.”
JRR Tolkien
 
For LOTR to be a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, there needs to be an underlying Catholic/Christian allegory which has to be based on Catholic history (which Tolkien dislikes to reveal).
 
It is an absolutely Catholic work. Galadriel is the Virgin Mary. Nuff said. 🙂
 
From my mother’s basement, I humbly repeat post #14;

The Hidden Meaning of The Lord of the Rings: The Theological Vision in Tolkien’s Fiction click here
 
I found the Tolkien quote right in the Foreword to the Fellowship of the Ring.
A few brief lines:
As for any inner meaning or ‘message’, it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical.
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But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ with ‘allegory’; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
Click to expand...
 
As to the identity of the various fantasy races in LOTR, I’m quoting Tolkien as below:
  1. The Hobbits
“I am in fact a Hobbit, in all but size.” JRR Tolkien
“The Hobbits are just rustic English people, made small in size because it reflects the generally small reach of their imagination.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Hobbits are British
  1. The Dwarves
“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Dwarves are Jewish
  1. The Elves
The elven languages are constructed after Welsh and Finnish.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages

Conclusion: The Elves are likely to be Northern Europeans
 
Concerning the Orcs: (What he said was quite disturbing!)

(The Orcs are) "“sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”

Mongol types include Mongols and Turks:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

Conclusion: Orcs are Mongol-type people, mostly likely the Muslim Turks due to their geographical location and history of their battles with the Europeans.
 
In conclusion, Frodo (Jesus) is really a dwarf (Jewish) with Hobbit (British) citizenship, and who has an elven (Northern European) mother (Galadriel).
 
Compare the Battle of Helm’s Deep (Battle of the Hornburg) with the Battle of Toulouse (721) and the Siege of Antioch:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Toulouse_(721
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch

In the Battle of Helm’s Deep, the Hornburg was besieged by the orcs, the horn of King Helm was sounded and Theoden charged out with his cavalry. Then Erkenbrand’s infantry came to relieve them.
In the Battle of Toulousse, the Muslims besieged Toulouse and Duke Odo of Aquitaine arrived to attack the siege forces.
In the Siege of Antioch, the Muslims besieged Antioch and the Crusaders charged out after finding the Lance of Longinus.
 
In Christian symbolism, LOTR can represent the fight against Satan (where Sauron = Satan).

In modern allegory, LOTR can represent almost any war (if you ignore the main story elements). It has been said to represent World Wars I & II, where the Orcs represent the Germans (Not if you include Tolkien’s statement about the Orcs as above) or the Turks and Japanese.

It can represent almost any war in East Asia, where the Orcs can represent the Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese and Chinese, and the ring represents the atomic bomb.
It can represent any war in the Middle East, including the present War on Terror.
 
LOTR may also represent Armageddon, in which Morgoth represents Satan, and Sauron represents Antichrist, with the rest of the story elements intact.
 
There is a reference to the Madonna in the new movie at
the end; she is a mystical queen that lives in the lands beyond. Galadriel is just a leader among her people.

Tolkien made middle earth to be an invented myth, so you will not find much direct allegory.
 
If Varda Elentari (also known as Elbereth Gilthoniel) is Tolkien’s version of St. Mary, then who does her husband Manwe Sulimo, who is King of the Valar, King of the Arda and brother of Melkor/Morgoth (who is equated to Satan) represent?
  1. The Lord Jesus Christ?
  2. St Joseph?
  3. St Michael the Archangel?
  4. St Gabriel the Archangel?
  5. St Peter?
  6. A version of some pagan god eg Jupiter/Zeus?
 
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