Lord of the Rings Catholic themes

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If any of you have read the silmarillion it seems to have catholic themes as well. Can anyone clarify what some of those were.
 
Having recently read the book, the book is about perseverance and hope. The theological virtue of Faith, however, plays almost no role in it. What the book does do, however, is help someone to appreciate those goods all too taken for granted in life, as following the hobbits through Mordor does. In that barren and filthy wasteland, the simplest and most innocuous pleasures and joys seem like paradise.

The book is not about religion per se. It does, however, touch on hubris and pride and their dangers. Even Gandalf knew he could not bear the ring, exactly because he was wise: his wisdom both told him that he cannot do it and was the very source of temptation and delusion that he would use an evil thing ultimately for good. Wisdom is like to knowledge. Gandalf showed true wisdom by his humility and thus deservedly called wise. If anything, in my mind, the West’s dalliance with nuclear power is proof we are no Gandalf.

The book is about character. It links powerfully -and this certainly comes from his religion- innocence and decency with good character. LotR can shame a lot of people or else produce scorn and ridicule because the simple, guileless goodness of many of the protagonists seems naïve. It’s not.

The book is a celebration of God’s creature man. His passing goods found in traditions and “lore” that encapsulate his true wealth; however, the book itself is fond to point out that these things -good as they are- are fleeting and pass from memory and give way to the new.

The army of the dead traitors is about as close as you can get to pinning down something peculiarly Catholic: Purgatory.

Still, there are many themes in the book that if taken too literally as Catholic would be faults. An earthly paradise heralded by a mortal man and his regime is not Catholic in anticipation. Christ came and was crucified as a criminal; when He returns, there will be no need of human armies as such and, even if, they will be more like the armies of wandering Israel taking the Promised Land, where it is clear that God is actually accomplishing the victories and in the process redeeming or affirming His creation, Man.

In my opinion, the best aspect of the book is that the major battles and what-not are really just a side-show to Frodo’s quest, which is what is really important. Here the fate of the earth rests on two simple companions and the frailty of human friendship and trust. This, ultimately, is what saves the world:

“Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
 
Hobbes42 said:
However, there may be historical relations to his elements, but he states that it is not in the letter written to a publisher.

Tolkein states in that same letter that the purpose of his story is to create an epic mythology for Anglo Saxons similar to what Nordic legends are to their culture.

One can try to find allegory there all they can, but it wasn’t in the authors original intent.
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I agree. Tolkien was still alive when people were saying that the Orcs represented the Nazis. He disagreed. People will see what they will in his works. I know a white supremacist who opined that the elves represented the white race. People like me were Orcs. :rolleyes:
 
leekonghian said:
Concerning the Orcs: (What he said was quite disturbing!)

(The Orcs are) "“sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”

Mongol types include Mongols and Turks:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

Conclusion: Orcs are Mongol-type people, mostly likely the Muslim Turks due to their geographical location and history of their battles with the Europeans.
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Or the Mongols and the Huns thundering out of the steppes of Asia. However take note that he mentioned degraded as a modifier. He did not say Orcs are Mongols, although I’m sure Stormfront would beg to differ.

Personally I think every human can degrade themselves to behaving and thinking like Orcs.
 
The Orcs were quite problematic for Tolkien. A whole race of beings who were irredeemable which was quite at odds with his Catholic sensibilities. I have read a letter from him to his son where he mentioned men and elves turning into Orcs.
 
Maybe I’m wrong but weren’t orcs created by Sauron and Saruman? Which could explain the ‘irredeemable’ aspect.
 
I don’t believe that Orcs, whoever they might be, are irredeemably evil, just highly corrupted. We could even, at great risk of our lives and theirs, try to convert them back to Christianity. Anyone read “The Horse And His Boy” by C.S. Lewis?
 
Every time I see a LoTR thread I laugh a bit. That Catholicism burried under mountains of pagan symbology. Love Tolken even though I’m not catholic, just find it a bit funny that a Book which reads like an Anglo-Saxon pagan epic is held up as a shining example of Christian fantasy while secular fantasy things like Harry Potter or D&D are toxic to some folks.
 
In case there is anyone wondering about the method that I’m using to analyse Tolkien’s work.

Tolkien served as a Signals Officer in the British Army during WWI in 1916.
Then he trained in Crytography just prior to WWII.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien

His job was to make secret codes for the British Army or to break secret codes of the Germans.

While reading LOTR and the Hobbit, I have often wondered why he has to repeatedly deny that there is any allegory in his works.
(Compare God’s commandment to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree.)

I have heard that people claim that the Hobbit may represent WWI, and LOTR represents WWII.

Then I came across Tolkien’s quotes:
  1. The Hobbits
“I am in fact a Hobbit, in all but size.” JRR Tolkien
“The Hobbits are just rustic English people, made small in size because it reflects the generally small reach of their imagination.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Hobbits are British
  1. The Dwarves
“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Dwarves are Jewish
  1. The Elves
The elven languages are constructed after Welsh and Finnish.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages

Conclusion: The Elves are likely to be Northern Europeans
  1. The Orcs:
(The Orcs are) “sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”

Mongol types include Mongols and Turks:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

Conclusion: Orcs are Mongol-type people, mostly likely the Muslim Turks due to their geographical location and history of their battles with the Europeans.

Don’t worry about the above statements. I don’t think Tolkien was being racist.
However I believed that they were codes to be inserted back into his stories to see if they made any sense.
  1. Then the following quotes:
    “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision”
    JRR Tolkien
“And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge.”
JRR Tolkien

I started with LOTR, because it is longer and more detailed, and hence easier.
From the above two quotes (5), LOTR is about Catholic history.
Then I substituted the fantasy races found in the LOTR story with the real people that they actually refer to.
eg Hobbits are British, Orcs are Turks/Muslims etc.
Then I began to read about Catholic History to see if anything follows the storyline of LOTR.
I found that everything logically falls into place including the storyline when I think about the Crusades.
I don’t think that this is racist or anti-Islam.
LOTR is just a code for a piece of history that is important to the Catholic Church and that is the Crusades.

Then I moved on to the Hobbit and started substituting the various fantasy races found in the Hobbit with the real people that they refer to.
eg Hobbits are British, Dwarves are Jewish, Elves are European, Orcs are Turks/Muslims
I also substituted various characters with their obvious symbolic country.
eg Eagles for Americans, Beorn for Russians.
Lastly I substituted Bard & Men of the Long Lake for Jordanians, and Smaug for Palestinians.
And like a mathematical equation, you come up with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Also this is just another piece of history that is important to the Catholic Church, the fate of Jerusalem.

I’m repeating this: LOTR and the Hobbit are fantasy stories that are codes based on the history of the Crusades and the Arab-Israeli conflict respectively.
They are not supposed to be racist or anti-Islam, just plain history.
Equating Orcs to Nazis is just plain wrong from the code-breaking point of view.
 
Understandable. Tollenwas an authority on old English and Saxon, and as such on the Anglo-Saxons who spoke it, which is how the Dwarves, Elves, runes, and Gandalf the Odin clone found their way in.

And your right, D&D shamelessly rips off Tolkien, but honestly almost every modern fantasy series has to some degree. LoTR established the modern fantasy genre and its archetypical charecters like Elves and Dwarves.
 
From my mother’s basement, I humbly repeat post #14 & #31

The Hidden Meaning of The Lord of the Rings: The Theological Vision in Tolkien’s Fiction click here
 
Skadi said:
Every time I see a LoTR thread I laugh a bit. That Catholicism burried under mountains of pagan symbology. Love Tolken even though I’m not catholic, just find it a bit funny that a Book which reads like an Anglo-Saxon pagan epic is held up as a shining example of Christian fantasy while secular fantasy things like Harry Potter or D&D are toxic to some folks.
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In my experience, people who like Tolkein are generally tolerant of Harry Potter. People who are alarmed by Harry Potter tend to be alarmed by Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, etc. etc…
 
Skadi said:
Every time I see a LoTR thread I laugh a bit. That Catholicism burried under mountains of pagan symbology. Love Tolken even though I’m not catholic, just find it a bit funny that a Book which reads like an Anglo-Saxon pagan epic is held up as a shining example of Christian fantasy while secular fantasy things like Harry Potter or D&D are toxic to some folks.
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I’m as big a HP fan as I am LOTR, and the criticism of Rowling seems like writer-wannabe sour grapes, or worse, ‘because-she’s-not-Catholic’ flavor.

The Christian symbolism is evident in both epics for those who seek it.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
I’m as big a HP fan as I am LOTR, and the criticism of Rowling seems like writer-wannabe sour grapes, or worse, ‘because-she’s-not-Catholic’ flavor.

The Christian symbolism is evident in both epics for those who seek it.
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Indeed, people pick up on what they want to pick up on. If anyone has ever seen the disgusting episode of South Park where Butters becomes a famouse author it showes it perfectly. The book the kids wrote has absolutely no meaning, and yet everyone thinks it has some deep meaning that lines up with their beliefs.

People look for what they want.
 
Skadi said:
Indeed, people pick up on what they want to pick up on. If anyone has ever seen the disgusting episode of South Park where Butters becomes a famouse author it showes it perfectly. The book the kids wrote has absolutely no meaning, and yet everyone thinks it has some deep meaning that lines up with their beliefs.

People look for what they want.
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And you’re asking if we’ve viewed something disgusting because…? :confused:
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
And you’re asking if we’ve viewed something disgusting because…? :confused:
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South Park is a extremely popular show, however I’d imagine its not up the ally of many people on C.A.F. The particular episode illustrates my point that people project themselves onto things. It’s like looking at things with colored glasses.
 
leekonghian said:
timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/
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There is merit in this to a point, but that point ends with the fact that Tolkien wrongly detested allegory and that Jews have never had an industrialist -let alone militarist- reputation.

The former was an English point of pride and the latter has classically been viewed as a Gentile “virtue” and quite more obviously, at times, vice. The modern State of Israel might be good and even exceptional at warfare but they have a lot of work to do to make up for the obvious fact that the Jews virtually never won a war and never had reputations as warriors.

At best, at Masada for example, they earned the reputation as patriots (or suicidal fanatical zealots), depending, but never warriors.

The Maccabees are an obvious exception. But again, they rather demonstrate the point.

Tolkien’s masterpiece is, I think, best understood as a tapestry and weaving of history and imagination, complimented by mythology.
 
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