P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
In scripture,
demons accept that Jesus is God.
What is faith?
And
Can faith be lost?
demons accept that Jesus is God.
What is faith?
And
Can faith be lost?
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S
Scoobyshme
Guest
Faith is a theological virtue, a gift from God. Yes, we can reject the gift, or lose it once we have it. A nice analogy is our muscles. The more we exercise and feed our muscles, the stronger (and bigger) they get. The same applies to our faith. The more we exercise and feed our faith (with prayer and the Sacraments), the stronger it gets and the less likely we are to lose it. 
From a practical standpoint, faith is not mere intellectual assent, either. It must be an integral part of our lives, it must be “lived!” As St. James said in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.” A dead faith cannot save us. Or, as Bishop Sheen used to say, “Dead bodies float downstream.” We must fight against the current of the world towards heaven to have a chance.
I think it was St. Catherine of Sienna who said that the God who created us without our consent will not save us without our consent and cooperation.
From a practical standpoint, faith is not mere intellectual assent, either. It must be an integral part of our lives, it must be “lived!” As St. James said in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.” A dead faith cannot save us. Or, as Bishop Sheen used to say, “Dead bodies float downstream.” We must fight against the current of the world towards heaven to have a chance.
I think it was St. Catherine of Sienna who said that the God who created us without our consent will not save us without our consent and cooperation.
E
Eucharisted
Guest
Hebrews 11:1
P
Pug
Guest
Here is a cut from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
So yes, faith can be lost. It is our duty to fight the good fight and keep the faith. Don’t worry, just your average, simple sin will not lose the faith for us, but it is possible to do it with sufficient neglect.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Here is the quote…
This verse seems to lack relevant information
To answer the second question.
“Assure” means,
- to make safe
- to give confidence to
- to make sure or certain
- to make certain the coming or attainment of
Faith makes Perfect Happiness safe and certain?
If so,
How can Perfect Happiness be lost,
Once we have faith?
Again,Faith is a theological virtue, a gift from God. Yes, we can reject the gift, or lose it once we have it. A nice analogy is our muscles. The more we exercise and feed our muscles, the stronger (and bigger) they get. The same applies to our faith. The more we exercise and feed our faith (with prayer and the Sacraments), the stronger it gets and the less likely we are to lose it.
From a practical standpoint, faith is not mere intellectual assent, either. It must be an integral part of our lives, it must be “lived!” As St. James said in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.” A dead faith cannot save us. Or, as Bishop Sheen used to say, “Dead bodies float downstream.” We must fight against the current of the world towards heaven to have a chance.
I think it was St. Catherine of Sienna who said that the God who created us without our consent will not save us without our consent and cooperation.
If faith makes Perfect Happiness safe and certain,
Why does it have to be “bigger?”
Why isn’t imperfect faith self-contradictory?
What is “sufficient neglect?”
P
Pug
Guest
A phrase I thought up?
I can’t give a straight CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) quote for that one. Also, my answer probably depends on what you settle upon as the meaning of “faith”. There is some aspect of faith that involves a commitment of sorts, an impulse of will. I think a person can withdraw their commitment/assent. I think most likely this happens after a time of neglecting the duty to nourish the faith and perhaps also neglecting obedience to God’s other commands, but I concede that instead it could happen forthwith. Still, it would be neglectful to knowingly let it happen.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
According to St Augustine,
In, “On the Trinity”
He points out that since in heaven (Perfect Happiness)
We see God face to face,
And
Faith is a conviction of things not seen,
Then
Faith is temporal and not eternal.
But,
We retain a different but similar faith in eternity,
“Just as, we now retain our faith by remembering,
and observing by thinking,
and love it by willing,…”
So,A phrase I thought up?
I can’t give a straight CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) quote for that one. Also, my answer probably depends on what you settle upon as the meaning of “faith”. There is some aspect of faith that involves a commitment of sorts, an impulse of will. I think a person can withdraw their commitment/assent. I think most likely this happens after a time of neglecting the duty to nourish the faith and perhaps also neglecting obedience to God’s other commands, but I concede that instead it could happen forthwith. Still, it would be neglectful to knowingly let it happen.
A demon can remember and think about
The faith he had
when he was created as an angel,
But
Through free will,
Refuses to love it?
Why can we reform,
And demons cannot?
P
Pug
Guest
Remember, if we die and go to hell, we too cannot reform. It is the nature of the choice once made. You and I have not gotten to that irrevocable point yet, but I can’t manage to say that without remembering James’ words: [we] do not know what [our] life will be like tomorrow.
Yes, I see no reason a fallen angel couldn’t remember things from any time before he fell. How he experiences those memories might not be the same as when they happened, though. He might find them to be a torture to him, I speculate.
Now that I grasp that the faith of angels is of interest to you, further reading material for you is in Aquinas and his Summa here, especially articles one and two about angels and demons and having faith. The link is set to go to the right part of the Summa. If you haven’t read the Summa before, it takes getting used to, but there is food for thought in there, if you are the researching type.
Thomas (Aquinas) will likely tell you that demons have a type of faith, one that is forced upon them by their knowledge, compelled by what they see, signs they observe, or the like. It is not a faith of will. Perhaps is like the damned, when the final judgment happens, and all things are revealed, etc. They will see with their own eyes, but not a beatific vision, of course. Every knee will bend, even theirs. They will be compelled by what is before them to see that God is, I imagine. But this knowledge won’t compel love.
R
revert_jen
Guest
I don’t think the two parts of your post are related to each other. I think there have been lots of good explanations about whether you can lose faith. But demons don’t have faith in the same way that we do. Demons believe that God is One (Jas. 2:19), but they have been in God’s presence in a much more immediate way than we have.
Believing in God’s existence and nature is NOT all there is to faith. At least, that is my interpretation of the passage in question. Does a person who believes in God’s existence and omnicience, omnipotence, etc., and has chosen to hate Him have faith? I think if you are going to say you have faith, it is necessary also to love God. It appears from James 2 (and common sense) that it is also necessary to obey God.
So I think those are the differences between belief, which even the demons have, and the faith we are called to, which is given us as a gift that we are free to reject if we choose.
–Jen
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fhansen
Guest
Faith concerns things not yet seen. Perfect happiness is only achieved when we see “face to face”, i.e. the Beatific Vision.
J
JRKH
Guest
This is not 100% on topic with the OP, but I developed this as regards to the relative “hierarchy” of the various terms that we often use in these discussions.
Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.
I hope some of this helps you.
Peace
James
Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.
- We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
- Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
- After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existance of banks (And except their existance), but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
- Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
- Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.
I hope some of this helps you.
Peace
James
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fhansen
Guest
Adam & Eve rejected faith in God when they rejected His authority-His capability to know or determine right and wrong* for them*. By doing so they effectively rejected God as We can, by His grace, receive the gift of faith again, presumably after gaining wisdom wrought by experiencing a world without Him where mans’ will rather than His holds sway, where good and evil are known. But we must cooperate with His grace- this gift can still be rejected. We determine whether His will -or ours -will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Since God is Perfect Happiness,
Which we naturally seek,
How could this be reworded,
Using these terms?
(Not that it is bad the way it is.)
F
fhansen
Guest
Humankind sought happiness outside of its true Source and must find their way, with His help, back to Him again, if they’re to know happiness at all.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Perfect Happiness = Perfect Love.
And
All teachings are derived from this principle.
Faith is the certainty of things not self-evident.
And
We put our faith in the Way to Perfect Love.
What is not self-evident about the Way to Perfect Love,
And
How does this relate to hope?
F
fhansen
Guest
We cannot now behold the object of our love-not until we “see face to face”-so He grants us the ability to believe the truths proposed to us (faith) and the ability to place our trust and confidence in them (hope). The supernatural gift of hope is a much stronger virtue than simply desiring something good. It’s the empowerment to trust it will happen-in spite of the lack of self-evidence.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Pure faith amounts to intellectual assent to revealed truths.
We add to that hope which is looking forward to all that God has planned for us as well as charity or love for God and others.
Protestants tend to view faith as intellectual assent AND hope all rolled into one.
Therefore, when they say we are saved by faith alone, they are referring to what Catholics would call intellectual assent and hope.
Catholics say, "No, we are not saved by intellectual assent alone. Charity (ie, good works) are also necessary.
See how the two sides end up arguing? They’re using the same words, but they have different meanings for the words.
At least, I think that’s the problem.
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
Is the following consistent with Protestant Theology…?Pure faith amounts to intellectual assent to revealed truths.
We add to that hope which is looking forward to all that God has planned for us as well as charity or love for God and others.
Protestants tend to view faith as intellectual assent AND hope all rolled into one.
Therefore, when they say we are saved by faith alone, they are referring to what Catholics would call intellectual assent and hope.
Catholics say, "No, we are not saved by intellectual assent alone. Charity (ie, good works) are also necessary.
See how the two sides end up arguing? They’re using the same words, but they have different meanings for the words.
At least, I think that’s the problem.
So,
Money and Power (for example)
Have self-evident benefits.
Therefore,
Require the weaker “natural” hope.
And
Are not directed toward Perfect Happiness.
The attainability of Perfect Happiness,
Lacks self-evidence.
Therefore,
Requires the stronger “supernatural” hope,
And
Is directed toward Perfect Happiness.
Since all people “naturally” desire Perfect Happiness,
Only the “supernatural” hope,
Is directed toward true freedom?
Is baptism the only way to receive,
The “supernatural” hope?
P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
From my experience,
When supernatural hope is lost after having faith,
This phrase creates fear and confusion.
When supernatural hope is regained,
Peace and a sense of certainty return.
If love involves suffering,
Then,
Gaining wisdom through suffering,
Is
Gaining wisdom through love?
(Until Perfect Happiness is self-evident)
According to Protestant Theology,Pure faith amounts to intellectual assent to revealed truths.
We add to that hope which is looking forward to all that God has planned for us as well as charity or love for God and others.
Protestants tend to view faith as intellectual assent AND hope all rolled into one.
Therefore, when they say we are saved by faith alone, they are referring to what Catholics would call intellectual assent and hope.
Catholics say, "No, we are not saved by intellectual assent alone. Charity (ie, good works) are also necessary.
See how the two sides end up arguing? They’re using the same words, but they have different meanings for the words.
At least, I think that’s the problem.
If hope can be lost,
Can faith be lost?
F
fhansen
Guest
That second sentence from my post you quoted was supposed to read, “By doing so they effectively rejected God as God.”
Apparently God knew that mans best fate temporarily is to live separated from Love in order to, without coercion but with the help of His grace and revelation, have the opportunity to come to learn Love’s value and, by some point, will to choose it above all else without reservation. God’s love teaches one this value by reaching out to us first and then helping us to emulate Him in being willing to face rejection and/or death if it means saving another’s life-possibly both spiritually and physically-but spiritually first because we all die physically in any case. And spiritual death is ugly. It’s when one loses all hope that this universe contains love and goodness and anything worth living for.
Whether or not we face this kind of trial, through love for others we’re also saved-we “help” God save us because He made things that way. Yes, suffering is always involved in loving.
In Catholic theology, one can lose hope without losing faith. One can believe that God exists, for example, without placing hope in Him. Since the two virtues are intertwined in Protestant theology, from my understanding, it seems that some fancy footwork is sometimes employed in an attempt to separate them, especially in light of James’ explanation that “even demons believe”.
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