Losing hope in the Catholic Church

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Disinherited

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Through the Immaculate Heart,

I’m posting this in the traditional Catholic forum because I’m a traditionalist. The thing is, I’ve been doing alot of research on the Catholic Church and all that, and while I know how to separate the lies from the truth, I can’t live with the fact that the Church did commit atrocities in the past.

For example, what about the burning of heretics? I understand that it was sonly to defend the faith and preserve it and that the Church didn’t go out and burn each and everyone who didn’t agree with her teachings, ala the communists but still, I feel that it compromises free will.

What about its treatment of the Jews? While I admit that the alot of Jews did practice usury (something which isn’t prohibited in the Talmud if committed against non-Jews(Talmud IV/2/70b)) the regulations seemed pretty harsh. I’m not talking about the mass forced conversions made by some members of the church which were condemned by the Church nor the superstitious mob lynchings which weren’t allowed by the Church either, I’m talking about being forced to wearing distinctive clothing, forced to attend sermons when you didn’t want to three times a year, forced to pay tithes to the Catholic Church, being kicked out of Church states and having nowhere to go, etc… what angered me was that Pope Pius V himself (who is even canonized) forced the Jews to sell their property.

I’m undergoing a difficult time juggling these questions, I really am. Can someone please help me?
 
I’m sure someone will give you a better answer than this one, but God is continually revealing Himself to us as time goes on. What seemed like the right thing to do back then, many years of life and prayer later, we see that was incorrect and we now must act as we understand God would want us to. The Church has made mistakes. John Paul II was such a great man and was brave enough to reach out to those the Church ( or should I say people in the Church) may have hurt in the past, from their own ignorance at the time.

One problem with the Church, I think is that they have a hard time admitting mistakes because they know the Holy Spirit guides the Church and therefore not possible to make mistakes. Well, the Holy Spirit guides beautifully, but humanness gets in the way of understanding the direction of the guidance sometimes. This of course is my opinion.

so…it is VERY possible to have big mistakes made, although at the time, the decisions were what they thought was necessary.
 
Greetings!

There are a few ways to approach the problem.

The first is to research the claims carefully. Many claims people make against the Church are half truths. An example we in the English speaking world used to hear was that the Church took too much of the land. What was not said was that though the Church held title to the land, it made the land available to more people to live on it than after the Reformation, when wealthy aristocrats took the land that had belonged to the Church.

If you find that some of the claims are true, examine why the Church leaders did what they did. Whom were they trying to protect? What evil, if any, were they trying to prevent.

Also, make certain that the the actions the Church took are placed in the proper context of the times. How was religious tolerance given in the centuries you are researching?
How did the Church treat its adversaries compared with how other authorities treated their adversaries? If you are looking at the 13 and 14th century, for example, how did the Church compare to the Mongols, or the Chinese, etc.?

The second method to use is to consider the source of the criticism. Is the source biased against the Church? What is the nature of the bias?

The third question to pose is what to ask whether the Church has changed its policy, and whether the change is for the better or not. In the case of the Jews, ask whether the Church has changed its stance toward aliens within Christian society. How have modern states dealt with aliens? Do aliens in modern society have more or less rights than Jews under Church authority in the middle ages?

Do not feel the need to defend every action of the Church. Churchmen have made many mistakes over the years. Some of them have been severe. What institution of men has not made severe mistakes, or committed injustice? However, what institution has the history of renewal, self-questioning, and overall dedication to the poor and oppressed? What institution has tried to stay constant to the teachings of her master? Marx has not been dead two centuries, and Marxists have already abandoned his teachings.

The miracle Christ gives us is not 2000 years of perfection. The miracle Christ gives us is His Church which has lasted 2000 years. Look at it another way, if the Church were perfect, where would you and I fit in?

Enjoy your studies!
 
Disinherited said:
Through the Immaculate Heart,

I’m posting this in the traditional Catholic forum because I’m a traditionalist. The thing is, I’ve been doing alot of research on the Catholic Church and all that, and while I know how to separate the lies from the truth, I can’t live with the fact that the Church did commit atrocities in the past.

For example, what about the burning of heretics? I understand that it was sonly to defend the faith and preserve it and that the Church didn’t go out and burn each and everyone who didn’t agree with her teachings, ala the communists but still, I feel that it compromises free will.

What about its treatment of the Jews? While I admit that the alot of Jews did practice usury (something which isn’t prohibited in the Talmud if committed against non-Jews(Talmud IV/2/70b)) the regulations seemed pretty harsh. I’m not talking about the mass forced conversions made by some members of the church which were condemned by the Church nor the superstitious mob lynchings which weren’t allowed by the Church either, I’m talking about being forced to wearing distinctive clothing, forced to attend sermons when you didn’t want to three times a year, forced to pay tithes to the Catholic Church, being kicked out of Church states and having nowhere to go, etc… what angered me was that Pope Pius V himself (who is even canonized) forced the Jews to sell their property.

I’m undergoing a difficult time juggling these questions, I really am. Can someone please help me?
Click to expand...
Hi, you might want to read this link… davidmacd.com/catholic/inquisition.htm

also, try to think of it this way… if you want to see if a philosophy makes sense, would you look at the example of a great philosopher or a first year college student? In the same way, if you want to see what type of faith Catholicism is, - would you look at the people who practiced it badly, or those who practiced what it teaches and what it IS (ie: the Saints!). It might help to read about the Saints and base your view of Catholicism on those who actually lived out what it says. Why leave the Church over how some people DIDN’T practice its teachings?

God bless
 
Maybe it’s already been said, but I wouldn’t judge the entire Church by the actions of a few.

I’m equally disgusted by a lot in the Church today, what Pope Benedict XVI called “filth” if I’m not mistaken.

Even if we don’t see a ‘Judas’ in the Church every day, we know that we are sinners and that we are surrounded by sinners. Priests who listen to confessions could be even more discouraged than we are, who know what the people are really doing.

They have to listen to the confessions of their own congregation, and that, in some extent, is a reflection of their own ministry.

I’m not a historian, but what I can see of history is that the Church is not immune to the problems of its day.

50 years ago, when I was an altar boy, our pastor seemed to be a rigid sort of priest One of the images he brought up in his sermons was the idea of how easy things had become, that instead of work, we just push a button. Well, he should talk. He had a car with a push button transmission. I don’t know of anybody else who could afford such a car, or who would pay for such an extravagance, even if they could afford it. If push-button living was a great sin, he was a great sinner.

I also don’t know that it is any better anyplace else. I wouldn’t want to be anything but Catholic.
 
In over 2000 years, out of 266 Popes, about 79 are recognized as Saints, 12 were Scoundrals, leaving 176 as pretty good guys. These are better stats than for presidents, prime ministers, or monarchs around the world.
Other than the Blessed Mother, there is no human who has never sinned.

Remember that when you are talking about leaving the Church, you are considering leaving the Church established by Jesus, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. Mt 16:18-19.

You may find reading the following helpful.
  1. Catholic Bible (start with the New Testament, where Jesus started HIS Church).
  2. “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which contains the teachings of the Catholic Church that we are all required to adhere to.
  3. “Catholicism for Dummies*” which factually addresses the historical problems in the Church.*
    These are what you have to live with.
 
I’ve had the same doubts myself, with some more modern Catholic wrongdoings in mind. I’ve found that stringing these Bible stories together is helpful:

Jesus named Peter as the “rock, and on this rock I will build My Church,” (Mt 16). Later, when Jesus arguably needs the most support in His earthly life, when He is being interrogated at the beginning of the Passion, that “rock” on which He will build His Church was outside the gates, adamantly denying that he even knew Jesus. The first commandment to Moses was “I am the Lord, your God” and Jesus’ greatest commandment was “Love God with your whole heart.” Yet there is Jesus’ number one man to lead the Church, breaking the most basic commandment of them all when his Master needs him most.

Does Jesus clean house after the resurrection? Get someone with better principles in there who can do a better job? Does He tell Peter: “You’re fired.”? No. Jesus tells Peter: “Feed my lambs.” Jesus reaffirms Peter’s place as the head of the Church! And we see in Acts that Peter’s Church proves to be as powerful as Jesus knew it would be.

Obviously, the Church that Jesus established is different than the communities that God established in the Jewish people int he Old Testament, where God conquered and replaced the leaders of Israel who turned away. Peter’s story proves that Jesus knows and expects the leaders of His Church to make bad decisions sometimes. It also proves that if we keep our faith in that Church and focus on generating successes rather than mistakes, God’s plan for the Church is awesome.

I look at other failures of Church leaders as just modern instances of Peter’s denial in the courtyard. These instances will happen. They will be embarrassing. They will be hard to understand. They will not stop the mission of the Church: even if they damage it, they will never stop it. And most importantly: Jesus knows that they will be a part of our journey as a Church and expects us to carry through them.
 
Disinherited said:
Through the Immaculate Heart,

I’m posting this in the traditional Catholic forum because I’m a traditionalist. The thing is, I’ve been doing alot of research on the Catholic Church and all that, and while I know how to separate the lies from the truth, I can’t live with the fact that the Church did commit atrocities in the past.

For example, what about the burning of heretics? I understand that it was sonly to defend the faith and preserve it and that the Church didn’t go out and burn each and everyone who didn’t agree with her teachings, ala the communists but still, I feel that it compromises free will.

**“The Church” as in the official magisteirial teaching church did not reccomend or promote the burning of heretics. Political people who claimed to be acting as Catholic’s did.
BAD PEOPLE. **
What about its treatment of the Jews? While I admit that the alot of Jews did practice usury (something which isn’t prohibited in the Talmud if committed against non-Jews(Talmud IV/2/70b)) the regulations seemed pretty harsh. I’m not talking about the mass forced conversions made by some members of the church which were condemned by the Church nor the superstitious mob lynchings which weren’t allowed by the Church either, I’m talking about being forced to wearing distinctive clothing, forced to attend sermons when you didn’t want to three times a year, forced to pay tithes to the Catholic Church, being kicked out of Church states and having nowhere to go, etc… what angered me was that Pope Pius V himself (who is even canonized) forced the Jews to sell their Forced by Who??? Politicains, Statesmen Government officials …BAD PEOPLE
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You should be a bit more critical of the things you read and are told. Many people with an anti-Catholic agenda will take partial truth and twist it on order to deceive. Also, remember context, context, context.

Jesus is present in the Eucharist. No amount of bad people can erase that fact. Stay in the Church for Jesus. In 2000 years no other institution has done more for humanity, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her.
Peace
 
We have to approach the past by looking at the present. Part of the problem that you’re having is really not the fault of our ancestors. They are the people they were and they’re never going to be different, because they’re gone.

The problem is Catholics today, especially among extremes such as those who believe that the Church has not done anything right and those who believe that the Church has never done anything wrong. Concisely, the disappointment enters when we’re arrogant. Unfortunately, too many Catholics are very arrogant. They refuse to admit that our people made horrible mistakes or that many of them made tremendous contributions to history. They are always looking for some loophole to justify or at the very least to minimize the actions of our ancestors; but that does not work. Or they’re looking for every fault.

The paradigm that works best is the family. Catholics are a family. In every family, you have different kinds of people. You have people who were victims. You have those who victimized others. These souls stand at the extremes. Then you have the larger group that is in the middle. Those are those great relations, past and present, which even though they have done some wrong things, made some poor choices, and even hurt some people on the way; they do not cease to be good people. They try. The often act without thinking. Sometimes, they are limited by what they know and unfortunately, they don’t know enough and they act from their misunderstanding of people, situations and events. Then there are those times when they act out of fear. The majority of our Catholic ancestors fall into this middle group, even some saints. They did some wrong, but they never ceased to be people who were trying to do the right thing. We have to look at them holistically. We can’t isolate a few actions and canonize them or condemn them based on those few actions. We have to look at the entire person and his or her entire life journey.

It’s true that St. Pius V was very unfair to the Jews. It’s also true that St. Thomas More executed six people for heresy. It’s true that St. Joan of Arc led an army to war and innocent people were killed along with guilty people. It’s also true that Peter cut off a servant’s ear. It’s also true that St. Benedict actually write into the Benedictine Rule that the monks must beat the boys that came to them for education. This is child abuse, by our standards today. He actually uses the word, beat and describes how the beating should happen. It’s a gory part of his rule, if you read it out of its historical context. To do so, is arrogant to the extreme.

This means, that if we read these things believing that Catholics can do no wrong, believing that we are much better, believing that a person who makes mistakes ceases to be a good person, then we’re being pretty arrogant, because we’re denying truth We’re hiding our humanity, but from whom? We are pretending that we are above all sin; when in fact, we just commit different sins.

We have to look at our Catholic ancestors not as THE CHURCH. We have to look at them as real people who lived in real situations that were very different from our own, but they were very similar to us. They did not always make the best choices, not because they were bad people, but because the same things that drive us today drove them: fear, misunderstanding, prejudice, helplessness, pride, or simply limited understanding of human beings. That’s why Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict are so ready to apologize for the errors of Catholics; but they don’t apologize for the Church. The body remains holy, even if an organ fails. Bl. John Paul and Pope Benedict have set an example of humility. They admit that Catholics are human beings who have made mistakes. However, those mistakes do not outnumber or trump the good that Catholics have done in the world, nor do those mistakes take away from the holiness of the Body.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We have to approach the past by looking at the present. Part of the problem that you’re having is really not the fault of our ancestors. They are the people they were and they’re never going to be different, because they’re gone.

The problem is Catholics today, especially among extremes such as those who believe that the Church has not done anything right and those who believe that the Church has never done anything wrong. Concisely, the disappointment enters when we’re arrogant. Unfortunately, too many Catholics are very arrogant. They refuse to admit that our people made horrible mistakes or that many of them made tremendous contributions to history. They are always looking for some loophole to justify or at the very least to minimize the actions of our ancestors; but that does not work. Or they’re looking for every fault.

The paradigm that works best is the family. Catholics are a family. In every family, you have different kinds of people. You have people who were victims. You have those who victimized others. These souls stand at the extremes. Then you have the larger group that is in the middle. Those are those great relations, past and present, which even though they have done some wrong things, made some poor choices, and even hurt some people on the way; they do not cease to be good people. They try. The often act without thinking. Sometimes, they are limited by what they know and unfortunately, they don’t know enough and they act from their misunderstanding of people, situations and events. Then there are those times when they act out of fear. The majority of our Catholic ancestors fall into this middle group, even some saints. They did some wrong, but they never ceased to be people who were trying to do the right thing. We have to look at them holistically. We can’t isolate a few actions and canonize them or condemn them based on those few actions. We have to look at the entire person and his or her entire life journey.

It’s true that St. Pius V was very unfair to the Jews. It’s also true that St. Thomas More executed six people for heresy. It’s true that St. Joan of Arc led an army to war and innocent people were killed along with guilty people. It’s also true that Peter cut off a servant’s ear. It’s also true that St. Benedict actually write into the Benedictine Rule that the monks must beat the boys that came to them for education. This is child abuse, by our standards today. He actually uses the word, beat and describes how the beating should happen. It’s a gory part of his rule, if you read it out of its historical context. To do so, is arrogant to the extreme.

This means, that if we read these things believing that Catholics can do no wrong, believing that we are much better, believing that a person who makes mistakes ceases to be a good person, then we’re being pretty arrogant, because we’re denying truth We’re hiding our humanity, but from whom? We are pretending that we are above all sin; when in fact, we just commit different sins.

We have to look at our Catholic ancestors not as THE CHURCH. We have to look at them as real people who lived in real situations that were very different from our own, but they were very similar to us. They did not always make the best choices, not because they were bad people, but because the same things that drive us today drove them: fear, misunderstanding, prejudice, helplessness, pride, or simply limited understanding of human beings. That’s why Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict are so ready to apologize for the errors of Catholics; but they don’t apologize for the Church. The body remains holy, even if an organ fails. Bl. John Paul and Pope Benedict have set an example of humility. They admit that Catholics are human beings who have made mistakes. However, those mistakes do not outnumber or trump the good that Catholics have done in the world, nor do those mistakes take away from the holiness of the Body.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Do we live in hope because of what Jesus did for us. Or do we give up because of what other people have done in the name of the Church

I believe that scriptures were given to us, in order that we should try and change ourselves.

Faith is a journey always one day at a time, yesterday is history, tomorrow is a great mystery. Lord give me the peace and serenity to live this day and every day, knowing that you hold me in the palm of your hand.

Blessings

Eric
 
Warrenton said:
Greetings!

There are a few ways to approach the problem.

The first is to research the claims carefully. Many claims people make against the Church are half truths. An example we in the English speaking world used to hear was that the Church took too much of the land. What was not said was that though the Church held title to the land, it made the land available to more people to live on it than after the Reformation, when wealthy aristocrats took the land that had belonged to the Church.

If you find that some of the claims are true, examine why the Church leaders did what they did. Whom were they trying to protect? What evil, if any, were they trying to prevent.

Also, make certain that the the actions the Church took are placed in the proper context of the times. How was religious tolerance given in the centuries you are researching?
How did the Church treat its adversaries compared with how other authorities treated their adversaries? If you are looking at the 13 and 14th century, for example, how did the Church compare to the Mongols, or the Chinese, etc.?

The second method to use is to consider the source of the criticism. Is the source biased against the Church? What is the nature of the bias?

The third question to pose is what to ask whether the Church has changed its policy, and whether the change is for the better or not. In the case of the Jews, ask whether the Church has changed its stance toward aliens within Christian society. How have modern states dealt with aliens? Do aliens in modern society have more or less rights than Jews under Church authority in the middle ages?

Do not feel the need to defend every action of the Church. Churchmen have made many mistakes over the years. Some of them have been severe. What institution of men has not made severe mistakes, or committed injustice? However, what institution has the history of renewal, self-questioning, and overall dedication to the poor and oppressed? What institution has tried to stay constant to the teachings of her master? Marx has not been dead two centuries, and Marxists have already abandoned his teachings.

The miracle Christ gives us is not 2000 years of perfection. The miracle Christ gives us is His Church which has lasted 2000 years. Look at it another way, if the Church were perfect, where would you and I fit in?

Enjoy your studies!
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Really good stuff here. 🙂
 
Disinherited said:
.For example, what about the burning of heretics?.What about its treatment of the Jews?
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This neednt make you lose hope in the church. But it could change how you view the church if you have considered it flawless and perfect.

The church is made up of fallible human beings. It is not faultless. There has only been one perfect man, and that is Jesus, God incarnate.

And what is the alternative? Protestant churches have some very unpleasant history too. And Islam, dont even go there 😃

The CC has survived all the attacks on it and despite the wishes of secularists it will continue for ever 👍
 
I know that the Church is made up of fallible human beings:). However, one must still remember that the Catholic Church, being the Church founded by Christ, is still infallible in its doctrines and judgments, else we wouldn’t have anyone to go to in order to know the truth.

With respect to all the Jews who suffered, I believe the Church didn’t put all those restrictions on the Jews because it was antisemitic. There were Popes at those times who forbade Christians and if one does research one will immediately find that the Church did all it could to protect the Jews. The only Popes I see as being rather bad in their anti-semitism were Pope Innocent III AND Pope Pius V, the latter being alot worse than the former with him expelling the Jews from the Papal States. Where did they have to go? Then there was the case of Edgardo Mortara but, even though it was really, really harsh on the Pope’s part, the ‘kidnapping’ wasn’t meant for political reasons but to preserve the faith of one who was baptized. I wasn’t antisemitic, the same thing would have happened if the child was Muslim or Pagan (Edgardo even became a Priest and missionary and was successful at that).

Mind you, without shading over what these two Popes did, the Jews aren’t any better. I’m not talking so much of the atrocities and racism which they show not only to the Arabs but to the whole world (and by Jews, I mean those who actually do these bad things); what about the atrocities of the Old Testament? Those murders and wars which they performed on all those countries? The fall of Jericho comes to mind…:mad: Sure God let them, but still, God is also our judge and without meaning to blaspheme, He can be pretty harsh (He punishes minor crimes like when He punished those children by setting bears on them just because they called His Prophet ‘baldy’).

Things certainly got better when the Blessed Virgin came around. There weren’t so many religious orders and so much good done by the Church than in the Marian age; it was the Marian age that gave us the greatest Popes and Saints. It isn’t because we moved on with the times, it was because we found out more about Her, we became more devoted to Her and we started to follow Her ways. We didn’t adapt, we Catholics followed Her. It all went downhill not only when we didn’t listen to Her message at Fatima, it all went downhill at the secular spirit of Vatican II. Vocations dropped, people became lukewarm, liturgical abuse, lack of Marian spirit, ecumenism, lack of the Marian spirit brought about by Ecumenism… it is only with Mary’s help that we can eradicate the poison of false ecumenism. We do not exterminate people of other religions because they disagree with us, neither do we slander them, but then again, neither do we support their beliefs or encourage them in the least to keep on with them. They don’t encourage us, neither shall we.

youtube.com/watch?v=hHDZ5rYiMz0&feature=related Couldn’t have said it better myself.
 
*If I was scandalized by the actions of sinners in the Church I would have left after reading that Judas who was a bishop betrayed Christ. If I didn’t leave after that then I would have left when Peter denied Christ. If I didn’t leave after that then I would have left when I read that the Church allowed Paul to be an apostle…I mean come on this is the same guy that was responsible for the murder of Saint Stephen!

I then thought well it’s clear that even the apostles are not above making huge mistakes or grievous sins: I mean they are sinners like us so I guess the idea that I’m going to find some Church that has no sinners in it is pretty ridiculous. What I can look for is truth in doctrine and if I wanted to be fair to the Church then I would see that the doctrine produces amazing fruits (the saints).

In short the True Church has the infallible Truth but not impeccable people.*
 
I like to think of the Church as I think of myself. Imperfect, improving, better than I used to be.
 
Like it or not, we belong to a Church that is a hospital for sinners not a museum of Saints. I am no expert on the abuses done in the name of the Church, but I look to see if the problems come from the Church or her members. It doesn’t sound like much of a difference, but it makes all the difference.

Just my 2 cents.

Newsy
 
Credo_in_Deum said:
*If I was scandalized by the actions of sinners in the Church I would have left after reading that Judas who was a bishop betrayed Christ. If I didn’t leave after that then I would have left when Peter denied Christ. If I didn’t leave after that then I would have left when I read that the Church allowed Paul to be an apostle…I mean come on this is the same guy that was responsible for the murder of Saint Stephen!

I then thought well it’s clear that even the apostles are not above making huge mistakes or grievous sins: I mean they are sinners like us so I guess the idea that I’m going to find some Church that has no sinners in it is pretty ridiculous. What I can look for is truth in doctrine and if I wanted to be fair to the Church then I would see that the doctrine produces amazing fruits (the saints).

In short the True Church has the infallible Truth but not impeccable people.*
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I agree with everything stated in this post and would like to add one more thing. Jesus promised to be with his Church, imperfections and all, until the end of time. Where else would you go?
 
All of the posters gave great answers. We must remember, however, that “we” are sinners, we are just human and weak. And “we” are the church body. Those of us who attend Mass weekly and/or daily are sinners, and yet we may think we are better than others because of that. The men that governed the church way back when were also just men. They did things which we consider very evil–and were evil. Forgiveness of our past transgressions–our personal ones–is just a trip to the confessional. Forgiveness of others, past, present, future, gives us more grace and peace. And seems for most, to be much more difficult. The just God will take care of us all–one way or another.

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others.
 
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