Losing memory and repentance

[tgGodsway]

Sorry I do not believe in the concept of a sacament.

 

[po18guy]

Free will dude! Ain’t it great?

Rhetorical question: where are you posting? Did you agree to respect the beliefs of your hosts?

 

[The_Old_Maid]

12
How can I know all the sins lurking in my heart?
Cleanse me from these hidden faults.
13
Keep your servant from deliberate sins!
Don’t let them control me.
Then I will be free of guilt
and innocent of great sin.

14
May the words of my mouth
and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.

(PSALMS 19:12-14)

Isn’t it the idea that when you asked God to forgive your sins, He knows what they are?

Babylon 5 made an episode out of this, BTW. (Not for little children, though.)

P. S. to the poster who doesn’t believe in sacraments, generally Protestants do accept Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Did you mean you don’t count the others, or that you don’t count those two? (Some in the Historicist groups don’t do any.)

 

[tgGodsway]

po18guy, what are you talking about? I have disrespected no one. A disagreement is not disrespect, its just a different opinion. Yes I agree to respect the beliefs of the host, that is a given.

 

[tgGodsway]

I accept the ordinance of Baptism and communion, but the concept of Sacrament itself I cannot find rooted in scripture. However, I would love to hear your view on it.

 

[po18guy]

“Ordinance?” Can’t find that in any of my 34 bibles(?)

Now, as to death and dying, the reason that we have the Sacrament is that it is explicit in scripture; it was observed before the bible was written and has been observed by Christians, both East and West since the first century, AD. At least you are baptized - that and belief make you Christian.

 

[po18guy]

You are right. My bad! A little edgy today. Three years of steroids do that.

 

[katelinguy]

I was in the hospital because of an overdose, causes memory loss

 

[Lion_IRC]

Was wondering about the best possible response for this question: if someone were to lose their memory and die soon after, would they be held accountable for the sins they committed in the past? As they’re unable to repent (because they weren’t aware of their sins),of course.

This brings to mind a very poignant legal case.
Madison v. Alabama

“Vernon Madison murdered an Alabama police officer in 1985…After a series of strokes, he is now unable to walk, and is also incontinent, legally blind, and so demented that he cannot recite the alphabet or rephrase a simple sentence. Perhaps most important legally, he can no longer remember the crime he committed, though he does understand that the state plans to execute him for murder.”

The Machinery of Death Is Back on the Docket

Two Supreme Court cases this fall pose hard questions about the death penalty.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[The_Old_Maid]

I would consider them both Ordinance and Sacrament.

Ordinance because Christ specifically told us to do it.

Sacrament because it is an outward manifestation of an inner grace bestowed as we do so.

But more might derail this thread, and that wouldn’t be fair to the OP. You probably wouldn’t want that, either. It might make an interesting thread elsewhere, though. Maybe the NCR forum?

Regarding the topic, I can see how someone might worry about, say, dementia. Let’s say that a person came home to the Lord as an adult, but they had lived a bad youth: wild, or maybe abusive or cruel. Now, as that person regresses, the aspects of the loving adult fade, and upsetting characteristics emerge. Is that person returning to the sins? Committing new ones? (Especially if the behavior is causing distress to caregivers. Is that sinful?)

I would second the hope that God is merciful, and that no matter how much we love our loved ones, God loves them even more.

 

[Canvas]

There seems to be no opportunity for him to repent if he can’t remember anything before his death. So i guess that leads to whether he is given an opportunity to repent after his death, but I’m not sure how legitimate this teaching is.

If a person has a brain injury and cannot remember all of the sins he has, he can still make a valid confession. There would be an excuse from material integrity. He can tell the Priest he is very sick and he cannot remember his specific sins because of his accident, but he is afraid for his soul and he knows he is Catholic (lets say his family visited him in the hospital and requested a Priest)…and the Priest can absolve him validly, provided penitent has even an imperfect contrition for any sins he may have committed.

Confession is not strictly required in all cases for a valid confession, ironically. There are excusing circumstances from confession entirely or partly and it is the Priest’s job to determine whether one of the exceptions applies (they can be due to physical issues, like someone dying or danger of death, or moral, like someone with bad scrupulosity or another condition the Confessor feels could be impacted negatively by too much confessing. Even the risk of being overheard is a valid exception to a materially integral confession ). The one thing a penitent must have is, at the very least, contrition, however imperfect, for a valid absolution.

 

[tgGodsway]

Ordinance- rule, law, decree. We recognize the command to baptize. But the word sacrament from the Latin according to the Catholic dictionary says they are vehicles of Grace. Na… The concept itself (setting aside the practices) are forein to the Apostolic founder’s understanding of how we receive grace.

 

[Lea101]

Yeah, I heard a similar case and someone close to me asked a question regarding God’s judgment instead. I would guess after his death he would remember everything and would make his decision to repent, but then again I feel like anybody would repent immediately when faced with a hell/heaven scenario after their death.

 

[De_Maria]

Ordinance- rule, law, decree. We recognize the command to baptize. But the word sacrament from the Latin according to the Catholic dictionary says they are vehicles of Grace.

That’s the technical meaning. True.

But, if we look at the etymology, we see that it has a much deeper meaning.

Middle English: from Old French sacrement , from Latin sacramentum ‘solemn oath’ (from sacrare ‘to hallow’, from sacer ‘sacred’), used in Christian Latin as a translation of Greek mustērion ‘mystery’.

So, it is a solemn oath. A promise. From God.

Where do we see that in Scripture?

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

These better promises are the seven Sacraments.

Na… The concept itself (setting aside the practices) are forein to the Apostolic founder’s understanding of how we receive grace.

On the contrary, we receive grace based upon God’s promises.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It is through the Holy Spirit that we receive all grace:

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will.

Every single Sacrament is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That is why St. Paul calls them “baptisms”.

First he says:
Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,

You’ve had your catechism. Let’s practice what you learned.

let us go on unto perfection;

And move towards righteousness.

not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,

Let’s leave behind our sins.

and of faith toward God,

knowing that we believe God

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,

in His Sacraments

and of laying on of hands,

and in Apostolic succession

and of resurrection of the dead,

and that the dead will rise

and of eternal judgment.

and be judged for what they have done in the body.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

And we will be righteous, if God gives us strength.

 

[tgGodsway]

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

These better promises are the seven Sacraments.

How did you connect the dots between the Hebrews 8 passage and the idea that the better promises were 7 sacraments? Curious.

 

[tgGodsway]

My apology De_Maria, I didn’t read on. My bad.
But I am still interested in why you call these things sacraments. I believe in all you listed from the Hebrew passage but have never thought of them as sacraments.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

These better promises are the seven Sacraments.

How did you connect the dots between the Hebrews 8 passage and the idea that the better promises were 7 sacraments? Curious.

I asked myself, “what is the difference between the Old and New Testaments?” The answer, “the better promises, the Sacraments.”

God’s salvation plan began with the Jews. So let me begin my explanation there as well. In the Jewish religion, there were animal sacrifices. These animal sacrifices were annulled and replaced in the New Testament by the one sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross.

This one sacrifice is directly tied to the holy Eucharist. This is well known and understood throughout Christendom. What is less well known, is that the piercing of the lance in the side of Christ is directly tied to the rest of the sacraments. In the piercing of the lance the blood and water which poured out signifies the grace which Jesus Christ pours out to us through the sacraments. Therefore all the sacraments tieback to the cross.

And the sacraments, the fruit of the cross, the fruit of the one sacrifice of Christ, replace the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament. Better promises.

So the one sacrifice of Christ replaced the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament. And the one sacrifice of Christ truly washes away sin by the vehicle of the sacraments. That is why our sins are washed away in baptism, confession, anointing, and less well known but in all the sacraments are venial sins are washed away. Better promises.

Further, the sacraments are the doorway into heaven. Once we are baptized we are saved. Not ultimately, but when we are baptized we walk amongst the spirits of men made perfect on Mount Zion. And so, we do not have to wait for the judgment. And that is unlike anybody else. Although we will also stand before Jesus Christ at the judgment seat, those who have lived according to his word will have already been judged when they receive the sacraments. Better promises.

And so this is a great advantage over every other religion. Whether it be the Jews, the Protestants, or any non-Christian religions. Judgment begins with the house of God in the sacraments. Better promises.

My apology De_Maria, I didn’t read on. My bad.
But I am still interested in why you call these things sacraments. I believe in all you listed from the Hebrew passage but have never thought of them as sacraments.

That’s because you’ve abandoned the Traditions which are the bedrock of the New Testament.

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church” …

 

[Vico]

I accept the ordinance of Baptism and communion, but the concept of Sacrament itself I cannot find rooted in scripture. However, I would love to hear your view on it.

The powers that come forth from the Body of Christ. Mark 5:25-34

The sacrament or mystery: visible sign of the hidden reality and the hidden reality behind the visible sign.

Example.

Greek musthrion (mystery) is translated into Latin sacramentum.

Ephesians 5:31-32 (sacrament, mystery)

“For this reason a man shall leave [his] father and [his] mother
and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh.”
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

 

[tgGodsway]

That’s because you’ve abandoned the Traditions which are the bedrock of the New Testament.

If I’ve abandoned the traditions which are the bedrock of the New Testament, you would think that you could produce at least one New Testament writer or Apostle who directly teach, not just the concept of the Sacraments, but actually calling them sacraments. How about indirectly teach it?.. Surely somewhere in the Apostle Paul’s letters is a section on Sacraments. … Surely this specific word is stated somewhere by Peter in his letters… If the traditions reflect the reality of the 1st. Century Church, it should be a carbon copy of the intent found in their letters. Wouldn’t you think?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

That’s because you’ve abandoned the Traditions which are the bedrock of the New Testament.

If I’ve abandoned the traditions which are the bedrock of the New Testament, you would think that you could produce at least one New Testament writer or Apostle who directly teach, not just the concept of the Sacraments, but actually calling them sacraments.

Because you read Scripture anachronistically, you make unrealistic demands of Scripture. Asking for things which are not yet developed. The Church wrote the New Testament at a time when the Doctrines of Jesus Christ were recently born and not yet fully understood. Therefore, you will not find in Scripture words like “sacraments”, “trinity”, “transubstantiation”, or “hypostatic union.” You will only find these in later centuries as the Church developed language which better explained the mysteries which Jesus Christ revealed. This is to fulfill what Jesus Christ had prophecied:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …

How about indirectly teach it?..

Aspects of the Sacrament of Baptism are clearly explained by various authors in Scripture. For example:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

As is the Eucharist and all the other Sacraments. But some do not have as much mention as others.

cont’d