Loss of Salvation

[MotoCatholic]

I hope this hasn’t been covered already elsewhere, because this is going to be a long question. But I saw something on EWTN television that has caused quite a stir in me and a few protestant friends. And I am simply not equipped to respond. Someone had asked the question of a Priest, and I’m paraphrasing a bit, “A Priest said that a baptized person who dies in a state of mortal sin does not go to hell, they go to purgatory…they have some good in them…but the Catechism says that mortal sin causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom if not redeemed by repentance.” The Priest answering the question said, again paraphrasing, “He’s wrong. A baptized person that dies in a state of mortal sin does not go to purgatory, does not collect 200 days indulgences, they go directly to hell, period.” I have to admit I was a little shocked at that answer (and I wish you could all have seen it in its context).

This has come up recently in conversations with some protestant friends. They already think Catholic doctrine, especially related to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, is bizarre and wrong. They see this answer, that no matter what otherwise good, baptized Christians that die in a state of mortal sin go straight to hell, is nothing but the number one reason why “Nobody should be Catholic. Why would you be?” And I guess I’m left a little stumped. Because when I consider that even as a truly commited Catholic, who is making every effort to understand my faith and life it fully, I am probably walking around in a state of mortal sin more often than I would like. When I look at what the Church considers mortal sin, I would argue that there are very few Catholics that are not in a state of mortal sin more often than not. Maybe I’m wrong about that. But if I or any other “good Catholic” is going to be condemned to hell on what seems to be a technicality (I’m between regular confessions, I’ve sinned, and I die…) then even I have to wonder, in the dark corners of my soul, what’s the point? I know that sounds horrible, but I feel horrible about this! Is there no room for God’s grace? Is there no room for “God knows your heart?” Is it simply that cut-and-dry? Thanks in advance for your help in this matter.

 

[Rich_C]

Remember that to commit a mortal sin one must:

1. Commit a grave sin
2. Know that it’s a grave sin
3. Act freely, without compulsion

Now we can’t know the implication this has for a particular soul, we can’t even know perfectly about ourselves, so it’s best to confess everything as soon as possible.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

When I look at what the Church considers mortal sin, I would argue that there are very few Catholics that are not in a state of mortal sin more often than not. Maybe I’m wrong about that. But if I or any other “good Catholic” is going to be condemned to hell on what seems to be a technicality (I’m between regular confessions, I’ve sinned, and I die…) then even I have to wonder, in the dark corners of my soul, what’s the point? I know that sounds horrible, but I feel horrible about this! Is there no room for God’s grace? Is there no room for “God knows your heart?” Is it simply that cut-and-dry? Thanks in advance for your help in this matter.

I think a big sticking point for some people is that it is hard for them to understand sin, and more specifically mortal sin. It is extremely important to realize that sin, especially mortal sin, is never an accident. Others will probably post the technical definition of mortal sin, I’m not going to this second because it’s pretty easy to look up. I prefer to see it as such:

Sin is not a “technicality.” It is a purposeful act. In the case of mortal sin, it is such a depraved act that, if one commits it consentingly, that person has purposefully turned away from the Lord. The resulting loss of grace is not so much God punishing us for making an “oopsie.” Rather, we are rejecting the grace that God freely offers us by committing a mortal sin.

Anyone will admit that perhaps there are mitigating circumstances in specific situations of immaturity, lack of understanding, addiction, etc. It is pretty common to hear about that in regards to sexual sin these days. It is just flat out hard sometimes to not sin. But a true mortal sin is always in some way deliberate and grave.

Also, just because you mentioned how you think few Catholics aren’t in a state of mortal sin, I’d like to quote my favorite phrase of John Wesley: “Vice does not lose its character by becoming fashionable.” Just because everyone’s doing it doesn’t make it okay. But don’t worry. True love of God will lead any Christian to fight against his or her sin. God knows what is in our hearts. Do your best. And just so I don’t seem self-righteous after all this, let me add that I fight against grave sins every day, and often times I fall. Most of us do sometimes, it’s the nature of the Fall. But God doesn’t require anything of us that He doesn’t know we can’t accomplish, so keep on fighting the good fight!

 

[Brooklyn]

[MotoCatholic;9140261]I hope this hasn’t been covered already elsewhere, because this is going to be a long question. But I saw something on EWTN television that has caused quite a stir in me and a few protestant friends. And I am simply not equipped to respond. Someone had asked the question of a Priest, and I’m paraphrasing a bit, “A Priest said that a baptized person who dies in a state of mortal sin does not go to hell, they go to purgatory…they have some good in them…but the Catechism says that mortal sin causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom if not redeemed by repentance.” The Priest answering the question said, again paraphrasing, “He’s wrong. A baptized person that dies in a state of mortal sin does not go to purgatory, does not collect 200 days indulgences, they go directly to hell, period.” I have to admit I was a little shocked at that answer (and I wish you could all have seen it in its context).

Your question leads me to think you do not understand the nature of mortal sin. The Catholic church teaches that there are two kinds of sin: venial and mortal. Venial sin is less serious transgression of God’s law which does not cut us off completely from God’s grace. An example would be snapping out of anger at someone, telling a small lie, gossiping (although that can get bigger). A mortal sin cuts us off completely from God’s grace and banishes us from His Presence. We are no longer in communion with God, and if we should die in such a state, that is how we will remain for eternity. But in His Mercy, God has given us the sacrament of penance in which we can confess these sins and be absolved and brought back into the grace and presence of God.

So yes, just one mortal sin, unrepented and unabsolved, can send us to hell. I am assuming you were never actually taught that as a child, but that has always been the Church’s teaching in her 2000+ years of history, and will always be her teaching.

This has come up recently in conversations with some protestant friends. They already think Catholic doctrine, especially related to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, is bizarre and wrong. They see this answer, that no matter what otherwise good, baptized Christians that die in a state of mortal sin go straight to hell, is nothing but the number one reason why “Nobody should be Catholic. Why would you be?” And I guess I’m left a little stumped. Because when I consider that even as a truly commited Catholic, who is making every effort to understand my faith and life it fully, I am probably walking around in a state of mortal sin more often than I would like. When I look at what the Church considers mortal sin, I would argue that there are very few Catholics that are not in a state of mortal sin more often than not. Maybe I’m wrong about that. But if I or any other “good Catholic” is going to be condemned to hell on what seems to be a technicality (I’m between regular confessions, I’ve sinned, and I die…) then even I have to wonder, in the dark corners of my soul, what’s the point? I know that sounds horrible, but I feel horrible about this! Is there no room for God’s grace? Is there no room for “God knows your heart?” Is it simply that cut-and-dry? Thanks in advance for your help in this matter.

Protestants have a completely different concept of sin and absolution. They feel that once they are “saved” by accepting Jesus Christ, it’s pretty much a done deal, and even though they may do sinful things, they will still go to heaven. The concept of confessing sins to a priest makes no sense to them. You just go to God, tell him you’re sorry and everything is good again. Besides, in their minds, nothing and no one can separate us from God, not even our sinful selves.

We should always go to confession as soon as possible if we commit mortal sin. However, if you should die before you are able, through no fault of your own, to go to confession and yet are truly repentant for your sin, you will be forgiven and not go to hell. Regular confession does also help us to avoid mortal sin as well.

Do yourself a favor, and make an appointment to talk to a good priest about this subject. It seems to me the Holy Spirit is guiding you, and it would be good for you to follow through.

 

[InnocentFortune]

How one feels about the situation is largely irrelevant. What matters is the truth. I know it seems pretty grim to believe that most will be damned but that doesn’t have any bearing on its truth. Reality can oftentimes be horrifying. Bad things, terrible things happen to people everyday. Why would the afterlife be so rosy? In any event, what matters is the truth and nobody is doing anybody any favors by denying the existence of a real impending danger particularly if an awareness of that fate could possibly avert it.

 

[Brooklyn]

How one feels about the situation is largely irrelevant. What matters is the truth. I know it seems pretty grim to believe that most will be damned but that doesn’t have any bearing on its truth. Reality can oftentimes be horrifying. Bad things, terrible things happen to people everyday. Why would the afterlife be so rosy? In any event, what matters is the truth and nobody is doing anybody any favors by denying the existence of a real impending danger particularly if an awareness of that fate could possibly avert it.

I think what we often forget is that,because of the sin of our first parents, our default destination is hell. It is only through the great sacrifice of our Creator and His Precious Blood that we are freed from sin and death.

I look back on my own life, and I can say in terms of how the world defines it, I was a “good” person. I never intentionally hurt anyone, I lived what the world defines as a clean and honest life, did some good things. But then I look at my life through God’s eyes, and I am horrified at what I see. I know that without the saving Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, I most definitely deserve hell.

But that is what this week - Holy Week - is all about. We are all saved from what we deserve and instead given the great gift of eternal life.

We need to realize that apart no one “deserves” to go to heaven. We all “deserve” hell, but through the precious gift of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross, we can all be forgiven and cleansed of our sins.

To the OP, it is possible that you are walking around in mortal sin, as most of us have done at some point in our lives. But it doesn’t have to stay that way.

Go see a priest as soon as you can.

 

[anon1234567]

I thought from something i was reading, I think, that if you died having committed a sin and if you were intending to go to confession, then that was probably okay.

 

[Brooklyn]

I thought from something i was reading, I think, that if you died having committed a sin and if you were intending to go to confession, then that was probably okay.

That is what I wrote in my first post:

We should always go to confession as soon as possible if we commit mortal sin. However, if you should die before you are able, through no fault of your own, to go to confession and yet are truly repentant for your sin, you will be forgiven and not go to hell.

 

[po18guy]

Ask your friends what they have against the Orthodox Church. If they cannot think of anything, this tells you all you need to know about the anti-Catholic faith that they have been taught. The Orthodox Church beliefs are essentially identical to the Catholic. It is the modern, man-made beliefs that your friends have learned that have lead them astray. Essentially, much of protestantism lives in a state of denial - denial of sin and its price. The concept of sin is downplayed by repeating the simplistic idea that “Jesus’ blood has washed us clean”. The denial of culpability is a recent innovation of man, and was never taught in the history of Christianity. Have them explain what Romans 11:22 means - if they can.

Please get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. It is a tremendous help in learning our Catholic faith. In fact, all Christians should have a copy.

 

[anon1234567]

That is what I wrote in my first post:

apologies

 

[MotoCatholic]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. I do think I need more study on sin…certainly not more opportunities to do it! Let me just say briefly that I am about 4 years into a sincere commitment to finally understand and live my faith, and it has been magnificent. I was, for a long time, a “bad Catholic.” I knew nothing, rarely went to Mass, had a bunch of my close friends that were/are tremendous Christians (unfortunately not Ctholics). To them, I must have indeed been the “typical Catholic.” No more - I’m so fired up that I just might start a movement to allow married men to become Priests. Well not really, but this has been a truly wonderful “conversion.” If only I had started 20 years ago…

I have experienced the protestant understanding of sin and repentance first hand, and often. I have some friends, whom I love, that often “talk the talk,” preaching God’s word in very public situations, and just as often not “walking the walk.” While that’s certainly not peculiar to protestants, it is a little stinging when these same people call me out on Catholic doctrine, like “What’s with you Catholics and sin?..What’s with confession?..What’s with purgatory?..” and on and on. I’m constantly moved to think, and sometimes say, “If you actually love God/Christ as much as you say, why would you knowingly and so often hurt Him through sin?..Forget about your feelings concerning the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, why would you continue, with such cavalierness, to break His heart?” And I hate to say that it’s probably because of sola fide, but if I truly thought I had a free-pass, I shudder to think how I might behave. I’m not condeming all protestants for this, but in my experience it’s pervasive.

While Sainthood may not be in my future, I’m commited to trying. And with the grace of God and the help of forums like this, I hope to keep learning. Thanks

 

[Brooklyn]

While Sainthood may not be in my future, I’m commited to trying. And with the grace of God and the help of forums like this, I hope to keep learning. Thanks

It is God’s Will that sainthood be in everyone’s future. That is the power of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Some of the greatest saints were once some of the most terrible sinners.

The road to sainthood starts with looking at ourselves honestly and admitting our need for a Saviour. Seems to me you’re off to a great start. God bless you on this journey.

 

[po18guy]

It is God’s Will that sainthood be in everyone’s future. That is the power of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Some of the greatest saints were once some of the most terrible sinners.

The road to sainthood starts with looking at ourselves honestly and admitting our need for a Saviour. Seems to me you’re off to a great start. God bless you on this journey.

Indeed. We are either Saints, or we suffer in hell for eternity.

 

[Graehame]

The Priest answering the question said, again paraphrasing, “He’s wrong. A baptized person that dies in a state of mortal sin does not go to purgatory, does not collect 200 days indulgences, they go directly to hell, period.” I have to admit I was a little shocked at that answer…

The priest was exactly correct. I also find myself in 100% agreement with the sentiments posted by Brooklyn, Innocent Fortune, & po18guy. Baptism merely prepares the soul to receive sanctifying grace, it isn’t a guarantee of heaven except in the single case of one who is baptized in danger of death & then dies shortly thereafter. It is the state of a person’s soul at the moment of death that determines the destination of each individual soul.

That said, it is wrong to suppose that we can determine the condition or the eternal disposition of any soul. That decision rests with the judgement & mercy of God.

“Nobody should be Catholic. Why would you be?”

That’s tantamount to saying, “No one should believe the truth. Believe instead whatever makes you happy.”

I would argue that there are very few Catholics that are not in a state of mortal sin more often than not.

St. Leonard of Port Maurice (1676-1751) used to preach a sermon he called “The Little Number That Are Saved”, which he used to put the fear of hellfire into his listeners. He cited Scripture, St. Theodore, St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. Ephrem, St. John Chrysostom, St. Simeon Stylites, St. Gregory, St. Anselm, & St. Augustine to the effect that a really tiny percentage of people are saved, & he averred that most of the Greek & Latin Fathers of the Church agreed, to which he added the names of Cardinals Cajetan & Bellarmine.

I doubt that St. Leonard was divinely inspired on this point, & I think that he exaggerates, but it is indisputable that this is a common belief among saints, theologians, & the Fathers of the Church.

 

[MotoCatholic]

I think what made me shudder at the Priest’s response on EWTN was the picture that was painted, of an otherwise “good person,” who regularly goes to confession…you know the story - but dies suddenly while not in a state of grace. And BANG, no exceptions, straight to hell. It just seemed so hopeless that it verged on shocking.

I agree with everyones’ (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m leaning towards agreeing with my protestant friends. I just find myself at a bit of a loss when they say things like “well then why did Christ die on the cross?” “What a horrible way to worship Christ…” I know they have an incomplete understanding of this issue. My only worry is that if any of these people actually saw that EWTN episode, or anyone with any anti-Catholic bias in their heart, they would then be full-fledged anti-Catholic warriors. While I’m in total agreement with Catholic teaching on this subject, I think it would have been appropriate for the Priest to include a qualifier like “only God knows the soul, only God can judge.” Or say something about the Catholic teaching on contrition and divine mercy.

While I understand the primal importance of our salvation, I’ll try to get off my hang-up on the particulars of this comment on EWTN. It just really shook me. But, maybe well all need a little shaking - this episode motivated me to do a lot of asking, reading, and learning. So thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Godfollower]

I think what made me shudder at the Priest’s response on EWTN was the picture that was painted, of an otherwise “good person,” who regularly goes to confession…you know the story - but dies suddenly while not in a state of grace. And BANG, no exceptions, straight to hell. It just seemed so hopeless that it verged on shocking.

I agree with everyones’ (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m leaning towards agreeing with my protestant friends. I just find myself at a bit of a loss when they say things like “well then why did Christ die on the cross?” “What a horrible way to worship Christ…” I know they have an incomplete understanding of this issue. My only worry is that if any of these people actually saw that EWTN episode, or anyone with any anti-Catholic bias in their heart, they would then be full-fledged anti-Catholic warriors. While I’m in total agreement with Catholic teaching on this subject, I think it would have been appropriate for the Priest to include a qualifier like “only God knows the soul, only God can judge.” Or say something about the Catholic teaching on contrition and divine mercy.

While I understand the primal importance of our salvation, I’ll try to get off my hang-up on the particulars of this comment on EWTN. It just really shook me. But, maybe well all need a little shaking - this episode motivated me to do a lot of asking, reading, and learning. So thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Some Scripture for your friends’ edification:

You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men.

Matthew 5:13.

Salt is good. But if the salt shall lose its savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither profitable for the land nor for the dunghill, but shall be cast out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 14:34-35.

I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? That which Israel sought, he hath not obtained: but the election hath obtained it; and the rest have been blinded. As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day. And David saith: Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see: and bow down their back always.

I say then, have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid. But by their offence, salvation is come to the Gentiles, that they may be emulous of them. Now if the offence of them be the riches of the world, and the diminution of them, the riches of the Gentiles; how much more the fulness of them? For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I will honour my ministry, If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them. For if the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. ***Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.

For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.*** And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.

Romans 11:1-25.

Just because you’ve been baptized, doesn’t mean you’re going to Heaven. You still have to obey His commands, “otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

 

[Brooklyn]

I think what made me shudder at the Priest’s response on EWTN was the picture that was painted, of an otherwise “good person,” who regularly goes to confession…you know the story - but dies suddenly while not in a state of grace. And BANG, no exceptions, straight to hell. It just seemed so hopeless that it verged on shocking.

I think you’re struggling with the definition of a “good person.” As I posted earlier, I use to think I was a pretty good person, and I was in terms of how the world defines it. But when you’re talking about “good” from God’s definition, you are entering into a whole new realm. I know many “good” people whom I like very much who condone such things as abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, etc. There is such a thing as the natural law which says that we inherently know some things are wrong, such as killing, adultery, stealing, etc. But we can allow our consciences to be seared to the point where we will actually condone such things as the murder of a baby in its mother’s womb. When we do that, even though we may appear outwardly good, we have separated ourselves from the Will of God.

Mortal sin is not an accident like tripping on the sidewalk. It is a deliberate decision to disobey God. If someone is in a state of mortal sin, they have consciously rejected God. Now, that is something that can happen over a period of time when we slowly turn away from God. We may not start out by being in a state or mortal sin, but if we continue on a certain path, we can find ourselves there. That is why regular confession is so beneficial, because it keeps us aware of the state of our soul. Personally I have to say that among people I know who regularly go to confession, none of them struggle on a daily basis with mortal sin. Their wills are pretty much in line with God’s will.

God is not out to get us, just waiting to send us to hell. Jesus came to earth and died a horrible, bloody, painful death so that we don’t have to go to hell. He is always extending his mercy to us, especially to the most hardened of sinners. St. Faustina said that Christ calls out to each and every person when they are dying. And it is possible to repent right up until our last breath. The thief on the cross who was forgiven as he was dying is our prime example.

I hope this helps a little bit. Keep asking questions.

 

[po18guy]

For this reason, Jesus said “Watch” as we do not know the hour in which the Master will return. Yet, even if one should die on the way to confession, God judges hearts and their intent.

 

[MotoCatholic]

Godfollower-wow, thanks for taking the time to post that. I’ve been thinking about this all day, and your post was very helpful. And Brooklyn, thank you too - thanks to everyone. I guess if I’m going to be “hung-up” on anything, this is a good area for growth and knowledge.

To give a simplistic reply - it’s just easier to “not get caught up in all the details.” Being Catholic, in a sense, is hard. The rewards are eternal, but the struggle on earth is very real. It’s easier to just say you believe, think you’re saved, and live your life however the hec you want. Maybe that’s why so many people get so exercised over the Catholic teachings on sin and forgiveness? It demands action, commitment, and responsibility. If we’re actually held accountable in our own salvation, as the Bible and the Church clearly teach, then there’s no such thing as a free pass. People like free-passes. Unfortunately many may like them enough to rationalize immorality and ultimately loose their own salvation. The argument over this may really just boil down to fear, laziness, and defensiveness.

Thanks again for all the help

 

[Godfollower]

Godfollower-wow, thanks for taking the time to post that. I’ve been thinking about this all day, and your post was very helpful. And Brooklyn, thank you too - thanks to everyone. I guess if I’m going to be “hung-up” on anything, this is a good area for growth and knowledge.

To give a simplistic reply - it’s just easier to “not get caught up in all the details.” Being Catholic, in a sense, is hard. The rewards are eternal, but the struggle on earth is very real. It’s easier to just say you believe, think you’re saved, and live your life however the hec you want. Maybe that’s why so many people get so exercised over the Catholic teachings on sin and forgiveness? It demands action, commitment, and responsibility. If we’re actually held accountable in our own salvation, as the Bible and the Church clearly teach, then there’s no such thing as a free pass. People like free-passes. Unfortunately many may like them enough to rationalize immorality and ultimately loose their own salvation. The argument over this may really just boil down to fear, laziness, and defensiveness.

Thanks again for all the help

You’re quite welcome. And, to respond to a question of some of your friends (“That’s too hard; why be Catholic?”): the price of eternal salvation doesn’t depend on what church you join. The price already exists and has been paid by Jesus, regardless of what any particular individual chooses to believe. But He has imposed some commands on us; and those commands apply no matter what church you join.