LOST season 6

[irishpatrick]

I have the feeling that by the end of Sunday, we still aren’t going to have a consensus on whether Jacob is evil or not. There is ambiguity on this point due to the fact that Jacob is a man with godlike powers who uses them to influence people’s fate. A lot of people have died, and the question remains: Is Jacob justified in bringing them to an Island to die for a righteous cause?

Even if the cause is of the noblest import (saving the world from the Smoke monster’s machinations), one can always say that Jacob’s ethics are utilitarian: his end’s are noble, but his means are not. Utilitarianism is not exactly a virtuous moral philosophy for a board full of upstanding Catholics.

Having said all that, I will concede and eat crow if it turns out that Jacob’s motivation is not to save the world. Otherwise, I think it can be argued that he is fundamentally “good” in the Lost universe, given that this isn’t a Catholic show. Bonus points go to Jacob if there is a universe merge that undoes many or all of the deaths on the Island.

A lot of people died, but Jacob did not do the killing (did he ever directly kill anyone?).

Jacob knew that MiB was trying to kill him; he knew that if MiB/Smokey left the island it would be horrific for the entire world. I think Jacob’s plan to secure a replacement for him if he died was a very good thing to do.

During WWII our leaders sent millions to fight knowing many would die. Were those leaders justified, or should they have just been pacifists and done nothing at all? Does Jesus call us to be pacifists?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

There is ambiguity on this point due to the fact that Jacob is a man with godlike powers who uses them to influence people’s fate. A lot of people have died, and the question remains: Is Jacob justified in bringing them to an Island to die for a righteous cause?

Bingo.

Having said all that, I will concede and eat crow if it turns out that Jacob’s motivation is not to save the world. Otherwise, I think it can be argued that he is fundamentally “good” in the Lost universe, given that this isn’t a Catholic show. Bonus points go to Jacob if there is a universe merge that undoes many or all of the deaths on the Island.

Maeglin, I think that’s fair. I won’t make you eat crow if Jacob turns out “fundamentally good” because of his motivation. But. . . I don’t think I should eat crow either if that is the only thing he’s got going for him.

However, if the whole thing can be undone somehow. . . reset, so to speak so that this whole mess didn’t happen, then maybe I’ll admit the Jacob isn’t so bad after all.

My point of contention this whole time has been that Jacob was evil. Often times in this thread people would point out the evil actions of MiB and ask me if I still thought Jacob was evil. But that was the whole point of my campaign. I never said MiB *or Smokey wasn’t *evil. He sure is . . . a really rotten guy. (That knife work in Ben’s closet. . . whew!) Rather I thought Smokey was really bad and Jacob was pretty bad. – but both were bad. Just because Smokey was evil doesn’t make Jacob good, and I think this was the assumption that most people worked on. And, I think this assumption that there exists a duality (which I would say is an error) is one of the points of the story.

The tricky thing is: Smokey looks like Evil Incarnate, so we assume Jacob is some sort of deity. Can anyone raise their hand here if they used to think Jacob was some metaphysical force for good before it was revealed he is just a confused kid with superpowers?

VC

 

[irishpatrick]

Bingo.

Maeglin, I think that’s fair. I won’t make you eat crow if Jacob turns out “fundamentally good” because of his motivation. But. . . I don’t think I should eat crow either if that is the only thing he’s got going for him.

However, if the whole thing can be undone somehow. . . reset, so to speak so that this whole mess didn’t happen, then maybe I’ll admit the Jacob isn’t so bad after all.

My point of contention this whole time has been that Jacob was evil. Often times in this thread people would point out the evil actions of MiB and ask me if I still thought Jacob was evil. But that was the whole point of my campaign. I never said MiB *or Smokey wasn’t *evil. He sure is . . . a really rotten guy. (That knife work in Ben’s closet. . . whew!) Rather I thought Smokey was really bad and Jacob was pretty bad. – but both were bad. Just because Smokey was evil doesn’t make Jacob good, and I think this was the assumption that most people worked on. And, I think this assumption that there exists a duality (which I would say is an error) is one of the points of the story.

The tricky thing is: Smokey looks like Evil Incarnate, so we assume Jacob is some sort of deity. Can anyone raise their hand here if they used to think Jacob was some metaphysical force for good before it was revealed he is just a confused kid with superpowers?

VC

How many people did Jacob directly kill?

I will raise my hand and say with what I know (and everything can change Sunday) Jacob was a very huge source for good on that program.

 

[Mumbles140]

Although I am a supporter of Jacob, and I do believe that he eventually will be able to undo a lot of things (through the work of Jack, Desmond, and the other survivors), you could very easily make the case that it was his will that brought the candidates aboard the flight, and anyone that was killed in the crash died as a direct result of his actions (although he ‘technically’ did not kill them, he did crash their plane, causing their deaths).

Additionally, one could argue that anyone killed on the island that survived the crash could also be attributed to him, because he was the only reason they were there, even if ‘Smokey’ actually did the work. But, as Jack said in response to Sawyer’s inquiry: No, he killed them.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

How many people did Jacob directly kill?

I don’t know. Directly? Maybe just MiB? Will it hang on whether he directly killed people or not?

I will raise my hand and say with what I know (and everything can change Sunday) Jacob was a very huge source for good on that program.

I can see your point patrick. But, couldn’t you say Ben was huge source for good too, since he orchestrated the eradication (at the behest of Jacob?) of the Dharma Initiative, who were trying to crack open the Island’s secrets?

VC

 

[Maeglin]

Bingo.
Maeglin, I think that’s fair. I won’t make you eat crow if Jacob turns out “fundamentally good” because of his motivation. But. . . I don’t think I should eat crow either if that is the only thing he’s got going for him.

I’ll concede that there may be enough ambiguity at the end of the show that Jacob’s true motivations may be masked and that no consensus can really be reached due to lack of evidence. As it stands right now though, I think the evidence tips in Jacob’s favor, but I guess we’ll have to see what happens in the final episode.

My point of contention this whole time has been that Jacob was evil. Often times in this thread people would point out the evil actions of MiB and ask me if I still thought Jacob was evil. But that was the whole point of my campaign. I never said MiB or Smokey wasn’t evil. He sure is . . . a really rotten guy.

Well, there were your comments on post #25, and post #125 supporting MIB, but I couldn’t tell if you were joking or theorizing. MIB’s motivations were a bit ambiguous in the early season, although it became clear down the road that he is a very evil dude.

And there did seem to be very much a type of supernatural duality between the two characters (especially after the intro to the Season 5 finale, The Incident). Later, it became apparent that these were just two fallible men (especially in Ab Aeterno).

 

[Bataar]

One thing I’m still confused about is the whole protecting the island bit. Jacob says they need to protect the island from the MiB/Smokey. From what I can tell, MiB’s plan is to leave the island. If he leaves the island, why does the island still need to be protected from him?

 

[Maeglin]

During WWII our leaders sent millions to fight knowing many would die. Were those leaders justified, or should they have just been pacifists and done nothing at all? Does Jesus call us to be pacifists?

You have a good point Irishpatrick. We have the right to take lives in our defense. We also have the extended right to take lives or send men into battle to defend our countries from invaders. It can be argued that Jacob did the same thing for the planet or for his home. However, a difference here is that Jacob brought men to the Island to die unwittingly and without their consent (such as those who died in the Oceanic 815 crash). They may have died for a purpose: a sacrifice demanded to get the Losties on to the Island and in a position to become slowly aware of their candidacy and their task to stop MIB. But if innocents were sent in unaware, it could be argued that it wasn’t a moral method.

 

[Maeglin]

One thing I’m still confused about is the whole protecting the island bit. Jacob says they need to protect the island from the MiB/Smokey. From what I can tell, MiB’s plan is to leave the island. If he leaves the island, why does the island still need to be protected from him?

In The Last Recruit, Jacob tells Jack that he must protect the Light from MIB. Presumably, MIB could find a way to extinguish the light as a means to leave the Island. Doing so could cause a catastrophe given the amount of energy corked by the Island.

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

You guys are smoking crack!

There is NO comparison between MIB who IS evil and Jacob.

Has Jacob made mistakes? Yes.

Does he personally slash the throat of a woman after her boss tells her not to speak? No.
Does he make empty promises to get others to do his bidding? No.
Does he pretend he’s going to help people when in reality he’s just trying to get them all together so he can kill them? No.

I have a theory. This person we used to know as Verbum Caro is dead and MIB has inhabited his body and is trying to lead us astray!!

 

[Maeglin]

lol

Well in VC’s defense, lately he has been saying that both MIB and Jacob are evil, not that one must be good and one must be evil. I don’t agree that Jacob is evil, but since he doesn’t have enough supporters and I enjoy pontificating on pointless TV show theories, I’m playing devil’s advocate. Not that VC is the MIB/devil or anything.

 

[Contarini]

The tricky thing is: Smokey looks like Evil Incarnate, so we assume Jacob is some sort of deity. Can anyone raise their hand here if they used to think Jacob was some metaphysical force for good before it was revealed he is just a confused kid with superpowers?

I thought from the first scene in which we saw Jacob (at the end of last season, I believe) that he and MIB were probably both humans who had somehow become embodiments of some sort of bigger cosmic struggle. (Up to that point it wasn’t at all clear to me that Jacob was good in any way, given the things done in his name.) And I still think that’s true.

Edwin

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Well in VC’s defense,

Thank you!

lately he has been saying that both MIB and Jacob are evil, not that one must be good and one must be evil.

Lately? I thought I had been hinting at this all along?

VC

P.S.

[sign]Drink Monster-Brand water! Now with new-and-improved Dogan flavor! Ahhh. Refreshing!
[/sign]

 

[irishpatrick]

You have a good point Irishpatrick. We have the right to take lives in our defense. We also have the extended right to take lives or send men into battle to defend our countries from invaders. It can be argued that Jacob did the same thing for the planet or for his home. However, a difference here is that Jacob brought men to the Island to die unwittingly and without their consent (such as those who died in the Oceanic 815 crash). They may have died for a purpose: a sacrifice demanded to get the Losties on to the Island and in a position to become slowly aware of their candidacy and their task to stop MIB. But if innocents were sent in unaware, it could be argued that it wasn’t a moral method.

Not quite. Jacob brought them to the island, yet he had no way to know that they would definitely die.

Also, as with wars we fight in real life, men are legally drafted (sometimes against their will or choice) to help defend the nation. Many of those men die because our leaders chose to draft them into a war situation.

 

[irishpatrick]

I don’t know. Directly? Maybe just MiB? Will it hang on whether he directly killed people or not?

I can see your point patrick. But, couldn’t you say Ben was huge source for good too, since he orchestrated the eradication (at the behest of Jacob?) of the Dharma Initiative, who were trying to crack open the Island’s secrets?

VC

Ben has willfully and intentionally killed people (including Whitemore in the most recent episode). Big difference imo.

My knowledge of Ben’s actions against the DI was that he acted alone, mainly out of utter jealousy.

 

[Maeglin]

Not quite. Jacob brought them to the island, yet he had no way to know that they would definitely die.

Also, as with wars we fight in real life, men are legally drafted (sometimes against their will or choice) to help defend the nation. Many of those men die because our leaders chose to draft them into a war situation.

But when you are drafted, you are told that you are going to defend your country whether you like it or not (setting aside whether the draft is moral). This is different from bringing people unwittingly to the Island just to die for the purpose of getting more important people there (like the Oceanic passengers that died in the mid-air explosion and got sucked out of the plane). These aren’t soldiers being sent into combat, but civilians sacrificed for a potentially noble purpose. Is this a gray area morally? I think so. It happens in war. Sometimes generals will sacrifice their cities or their territory to the enemy in a bid to gain strategic advantage. This costs lives too.

Could it be argued that those who died on/for the Island are doing their duty to save civilization from MIB? Maybe. It will depend on the events in the finale to see if Jacob is justified in manipulating fate.

Does Jacob know for certain that some people he bring to the Island will die? I don’t know. He knows from the past that all the people he brought before died. He tells Richard that wants those he brings to help themselves. He does change his tune by recruiting Richard, but this turns out rather badly because it causes the formation of the Others: terrorists who use Jacob’s name as an excuse to behave badly. Why does Jacob not reign them in? I’m not sure. There is definitely some ambiguity in whether his actions are moral or not.

But I’m playing devil’s advocate here, and in the end I think he is justified in doing so and is the Island’s “good guy”.

 

[irishpatrick]

But when you are drafted, you are told that you are going to defend your country whether you like it or not (setting aside whether the draft is moral). This is different from bringing people unwittingly to the Island just to die for the purpose of getting more important people there (like the Oceanic passengers that died in the mid-air explosion and got sucked out of the plane). These aren’t soldiers being sent into combat, but civilians sacrificed for a potentially noble purpose. Is this a gray area morally? I think so. It happens in war. Sometimes generals will sacrifice their cities or their territory to the enemy in a bid to gain strategic advantage. This costs lives too.

Could it be argued that those who died on/for the Island are doing their duty to save civilization from MIB? Maybe. It will depend on the events in the finale to see if Jacob is justified in manipulating fate.

Does Jacob know for certain that some people he bring to the Island will die? I don’t know. He knows from the past that all the people he brought before died. He tells Richard that wants those he brings to help themselves. He does change his tune by recruiting Richard, but this turns out rather badly because it causes the formation of the Others: terrorists who use Jacob’s name as an excuse to behave badly. Why does Jacob not reign them in? I’m not sure. There is definitely some ambiguity in whether his actions are moral or not.

But I’m playing devil’s advocate here, and in the end I think he is justified in doing so and is the Island’s “good guy”.

I disagree. People drafted do not know their leaders, yet they are forced to join the military anyway. The people drawn to the island did not know Jacob, yet they were forced to the island to help defend the entire world. To me it is nearly the exact same thing. I do not think it is a moral grey area at all. Jacob–the leader–draws unwilling people to the island to help save the world. Some of those people end-up wanting to help Jacob, some never do, some die, some do not. Sounds exactly like what happens in the real world with real wars…many people are drawn into defending a nation against their will, many of them end-up wanting to do that, others never do…some die, some live.

Jacob’s intentions were not for those people to die. His intentions were for one of them to become his replacement because he knew MiB was constantly trying to find ways to kill him and that would threaten the entire planet if MiB got off the island.

IMO, 100% moral. (with the facts we know before Sunday of course)

Jacob never intentionally killed anyone…nor did he intend that anyone be killed, nor ddid he even intend to kill his brother, he simply threw him in the light no knowing what would happen.

So far, imo, this is very clear:

Mib = very evil.

Jacob = Very good.

 

[regression]

Has anyone mentioned Hurley’s comment at the end of the show, “I’m glad it wasn’t me”, when Jack took the job? That line seemed odd and a little out of place. I wonder if he will end up being the island’s protector?

 

[Maeglin]

Well, Jacob did know that something terrible would happen to his brother when he tossed him into the light. He was warned explicitly by Mother about entering the light, and had also been recently consecrated by drinking the wine and probably had infused knowledge about the nature of the light.

This is Jacob’s one real sin that we know about. He did it out of rage for the murder of his adopted Mother, but it was a definite sin. I think Jacob is fundamentally good because he repented of this and spent the next 2000 or so years trying to find a way to undo the damage he did in creating the Smoke Monster. So despite the fact that he sinned, I think he is still good. He is not pure good, but he is good.

I think Jacob is a frustrating figure for some, because he is pop culture’s take on God. Think about how a Hollywood writer likely views God and you’ll see that reflected in the character of Jacob:

• All powerful and knowing, yet evil still exists in the world (i.e. did God create evil? Jacob seems to have)
• Wants us to follow him, but won’t explicitly come down from the clouds and tell us he is real. (reflected in the show in that most people on the Island haven’t met Jacob personally and when they do, he doesn’t explain much).
• Seems to rely on intermediaries to tell us what he expects (the Church and the Scriptures parallel Richard and the “lists” in the show)
• Demands sacrifice from us and wants us to follow him even to death for a higher purpose
• Seems to cause mayhem for his own hidden purpose (the OT conquests of the Holy land mirror Jacob’s manipulations of fate causing chaos on the Island)

 

[Mumbles140]

Has anyone mentioned Hurley’s comment at the end of the show, “I’m glad it wasn’t me”, when Jack took the job? That line seemed odd and a little out of place. I wonder if he will end up being the island’s protector?

I’m thinking that may be more comic relief - something Hurley has always been known for. Also, it could be a sincere sense of relief on his part. Think, Jacob is the one who came to him after he left the island, and has also been the one appearing to him all the time and giving him instructions. It seems reasonable that Hurley really thought it would be him, so when Jack volunteered, Hurley was likely satisfied that it was not him. I don’t think it seemed that out of place under these circumstances, but you never know with this show…