LOST season 6

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gmarie,

But, if mib could “inhabit” a dead body. . . why not reanimate Locke instead of leaving his corpse around? Maybe because Locke died off island?

I think, though, that the mib as Sayid theory might not pan out. . . it seems a little bit too obvious now that we know mib impersonates dead people.

Or maybe that is what they want us to think! 😉

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
gmarie,

But, if mib could “inhabit” a dead body. . . why not reanimate Locke instead of leaving his corpse around? Maybe because Locke died off island?

I think, though, that the mib as Sayid theory might not pan out. . . it seems a little bit too obvious now that we know mib impersonates dead people.

Or maybe that is what they want us to think! 😉

VC
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Maybe you’re right. Maybe since Sayid has been involved in so much evil maybe he’s better than the others to figure out how to defeat it (I remember Fr. Corapi saying one day that the Hell’s Angels believe that evil and Satan exist more than many Catholics because they have seen evil).
 
Yes, it does bring up the question why Jacob wants Sayid to live. Here’s a couple of idea:
  1. He doesn’t. He just wanted to get Hurley, Jack, etc. to the temple.
  2. He doesn’t. He just wanted to get Sayid’s body to the temple (to reanimate? to protect from mib?)
  3. He does. Sayid will play a crucial role in Jacob’s plans. (What is that?)
  4. He does. Just because he is benevolent.
But, gmarie, you bring up another interesting thing. You mention Jacob wanting Sayid to defeat evil – and by this I take it you mean the MIB. Is it possible that MIB isn’t the evil one? Or, at least, could Jacob be even more evil than MIB? Why do we think Jacob is good?

VC
 
I rewatched the episode and I think all the seeds for the solution are finally there. It’s my theory that the two alternate realities will have to intersect (seems obvious for resolution). I think the first reality (the incident merely moves the losties into the future) is where the ultimate conflict between Jacob and Esau/smoke monster will be resolved. I think these are merely two mortals who some how got locked on the island in an ageless struggle. Neither could be released until either Jacob was vindicated in his faith in humanity, or Esau defeated Jacob and thus broke the hold the island has on him. In this reality, I believe the losties will somehow triumph over Esau since Jacob planted the seeds for the ultimate victory before his death. This triumph will cause the realities to merge and will probably ultimately destroy the island and sink it.

In the second reality, we see that the losties on the plane are beginning to resolve some of their past struggles differently. Part of this is due to the effect of the partial reset (Hurley’s bad luck being cured, Boone being freed of Shanon’s influence). The other part of their difficulties are going to be resolved by their character interactions. We already see Jack the miracle-surgeon offering to operate on Locke’s spine. I think this will happen and will serve to set Locke’s battered spirit free.

In the final battle in the first reality, the alternate universes will merge so that the second reality (Losties land safely on flight 815) will become the dominate reality - but with one exception: They will remember everything that happened in the first reality including their final defeat of Esau (similar to how Desmond remembers his past memory of Faraday at the hatch). This will allow the losties to finally have a peaceful life but without the heart wrenching loss of their experiences of bonding on the island.

So I think Faraday’s reset will work, but will not include the loss of their memories on the island. It will also allow beloved characters like Charlie, Claire (who I believe to be dead in the first reality), Juliet, Mr. Ekko, etc. to be saved in the end.
 
I also wonder if the numbers (4 8 15 16 23 42) will change in the second, new reality created by the Incident. The numbers (constants in the Valenzetti equation) are supposed to predict the end of the world. The lost creators revealed a couple years ago, that the purpose of the Dharma Initiative was to change the numbers to offset the end of the world. If the DI succeeded in changing the numbers, they would broadcast the new set from the radio tower on the Island. This never happened in the first reality since the Others wiped out the DI before anything could change.

Perhaps you can’t change the numbers. Maybe in the original reality (in which the Island is not sunk and the Oceanic 815 crashes) the numbers predict the apocalypse brought on by Esau/Fake Locke escaping the Island. Perhaps in that reality, evil triumphs. But to offset that evil, Jacob arranges through the choices of the Losties (remember Jacob has faith in humanity) to create a new reality in which the world is not destroyed (courtesy of the Incident and future events in season 6) and the numbers change in the new reality. Remember in the second reality, Hurley calls himself the luckiest man in the world; perhaps he played a different set of lucky numbers (not the cursed numbers 4 8 15 16 23 42) to win the lotto. The second set of numbers doesn’t originate from the Island (since its sunk).

In this case the first reality would tragically perish (evil triumphs) while the second reality comes to fruition from the actions of the Losties in the first reality (with the added benefit of the Losties gaining their memory of the first reality).

Man, this is the reason I love this show so much. It gives so much food for thought! 👍
 
Belle10 said:
Bumping this thread b/c DH and I are soooo excited for tomorrow night! :bounce:

I too don’t want to see it end but will also be happy to get some answers. We’ve watched it since day 1 and are crazy fanatics! 😃

I’m trying to plan a LOST-inspired menu for dinner/snacks tomorrow night…anyone have any great ideas they want to share? The only thing we really wouldn’t do would be boar. 😛 (we don’t eat pork)
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Don’t forget Dharma Initiative beer.
 
novaslasher said:
IIn the second reality, we see that the losties on the plane are beginning to resolve some of their past struggles differently. Part of this is due to the effect of the partial reset (Hurley’s bad luck being cured, Boone being freed of Shanon’s influence). The other part of their difficulties are going to be resolved by their character interactions. We already see Jack the miracle-surgeon offering to operate on Locke’s spine. I think this will happen and will serve to set Locke’s battered spirit free.
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Interesting theories. Thanks for sharing. 🙂

I’m still undecided on this point, though. I think that, in the non-crash timeline we are now seeing unfold, many of the Losties will not resolve their internal struggles simply because they won’t be forced to confront them as they were on the island. For example, Charlie is being carted away in handcuffs wishing he were dead. Kate is still a fugitive on the run. Sawyer is still a con-man. Locke is still in a wheelchair. Sun and Jin’s marriage is still in major trouble. Rose is probably still dying of cancer. I’m not convinced they will resolve these things off the island as they were able to do on the island.

It is certainly going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. I am personally very happy to see two timelines, as confusing as it may seem at the moment. I would have been severely disappointed if the bomb thing worked as planned and we basically never got to see the island again, never got to see what happened with Jacob and his nemesis, etc. But then, it is really cool to see what would happen if the plane had never crashed.

If not for the shot of the island at the bottom of the ocean in the non-crash timeline, I would have thought that the two timelines would converge by showing us how all the Losties got to the island even without the crash of Flight 815 (since, right now, the non-crash timeline is in 2004 and the crash timeline is in 2007).
 
Hmmm, Interesting theories. But again it strikes me how we are assuming that Jacob is the good guy and MIB the bad.

But I have a suspicion that it is the other way round.

First:

In their original conversation it looks like Jacob brought the ship to the island to “prove” MIB wrong. But MIB says they will come and destroy things. Is MIB trying to protect the island and it’s inhabitants (whoever they may be?) MIB wants to kill Jacob. . . but if Jacob is an evil manipulator. . . maybe killing him is the “good” thing to do.

Second:

Looking back at the interactions Jacob had off island I thought they were to give people a chance to do do good, or at least to make choices. But I’ve thought about it some more and it looks suspicious:


  1. *]Jacob gives Sawyer a pen to finish the revenge letter. That isn’t helpful.
    *]Jacob intervenes with the shopkeeper to keep Kate from getting out of trouble. But if she HAD gotten punished by parents and police perhaps she wouldn’t have stolen again and turned to a life of crime.
    *]Jacob waits for Locke to fall out of the building and then doesn’t help him, just squeezes his shoulder. Did he further injure him? Make him unable to walk? Make his injury inoperable?
    *]Jacob distracts Sayid while Nadia crosses the street. When she turns to look for Sayid she gets killed by a car. Losing Nadia causes further negative consequences for Sayid.

    Left out of these is Jacob talking to Jack, giving him a “little push” . . . but for good or ill? and Jacob telling Jin and Sun not to take each other for granted. These two aren’t as open to “bad guy” interpretation as the other four.

    Also left out is Jacob convincing Hurley to a)get on the plane and b)take Sayid to the temple. . . but he could just be using Hurley to further his evil ends in both cases.

    Note that Jacob touches everyone he talks to (except Hurley?). Obviously he is marking them someway. . . but could he be meddling in some way? Infecting in some way?

    [sign]Down with Jacob! Up with MIB![/sign]
    VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
Note that Jacob touches everyone he talks to (except Hurley?). Obviously he is marking them someway. . . but could he be meddling in some way? Infecting in some way?

VC
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He does touch Hurley. In the cab, when when he reaches over to tell him goodbye and it’s his choice. The week before they showed the Season 5 finale with the “subtitle” things, that you may not have noticed. They pointed out that Jacob did touch Hurley.
 
I thought he might have. The touch on Jacks hand was pretty subtle.

What is Jacob up to? Do you buy my theory that he is the bad guy?

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
I thought he might have. The touch on Jacks hand was pretty subtle.

What is Jacob up to? Do you buy my theory that he is the bad guy?

VC
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You could be right. It kind of contradicts the traditional usage of the dark vs light imagery that they’ve been using (Jacob - light hair and light-colored clothing; MIB - dark hair and dark-colored clothing, not to mention being a black smoke monster), but that might be the effect that they’re going for.

I think it does seem easier to negatively interpret many of Jacob’s off-the-island visits rather that to positively interpret them. But many people put negative spins on what God “allows” to happen as well, so I wouldn’t say it’s conclusive proof that Jacob is the evil one.

I mean, just look at MIB. He just looks evil! 😛 😉

I admit, I would be somewhat disappointed if they went that route. It would sort of destroy much of the latent Christian imagery. In this Season 6 premiere when Ben asked “Why didn’t he fight back? Why did he let me just kill him?”, I just about cheered. It’s an awesome Jesus/Isaiah 53 allusion. But only if Jacob is the good guy.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I admit, I would be somewhat disappointed if they went that route. It would sort of destroy much of the latent Christian imagery. In this Season 6 premiere when Ben asked “Why didn’t he fight back? Why did he let me just kill him?”, I just about cheered. It’s an awesome Jesus/Isaiah 53 allusion. But only if Jacob is the good guy.
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Yep. If Jacobs the good guy it would be great how he wins by allowing evil to kill him. . . and then become victorious beyond what evil thought possible.

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
I thought he might have. The touch on Jacks hand was pretty subtle.

What is Jacob up to? Do you buy my theory that he is the bad guy?

VC
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It’s a good theory. Carlton and Damon did say on JKL “What if we did spin it to make Jacob the bad guy” 🤷 They are so cryptic.

I don’t want to think Jacob is evil. I like the above theory of allowing evil to kill him, so good will triumph overall.

The smoke monster/Nemesis kills for no reason, it seems. Like why did it kill the French team? Why did it kill the Pilot on 815?
But it did try to get Mr. Eko to “confess”, then kills him.
 
Interesting thoughts on Jacob being the true bad guy, VC. I do agree with Joe that the sacrificial death of Jacob does make for a good Christ allegory. I hope he is the good guy.

His interactions with the 815 passengers off-Island were interesting. You could be right that he steered them onto paths that were self-interested for himself and the Island. It kinda looked like he was responsible for Nadia’s death (which sets Sayid on the path of vengeance). Although perhaps it was as simple as merely saving Sayid’s life but not at the necessary expense of Nadia.

I think however, that while Jacob respects individual choices (even bad ones), he tries to set them on a path to reach the island despite those choices. Whether this is selfish or selfless depends on his motives. It could be selfless in the sense that it is needed to “save the world” via their future actions on the Island. Perhaps Jacob is looking beyond the welfare of just the individual Oceanic passengers. Jacob doesn’t force them to do evil, but merely allows them to follow through on their individual choices while still bringing good out of evil (by bringing them to the Island for a higher purpose). This is very similar to the free will theodicy - that God allows us to do evil as a consequence of our free will but can still bring ultimate good out of it.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Interesting theories. Thanks for sharing. 🙂

I’m still undecided on this point, though. I think that, in the non-crash timeline we are now seeing unfold, many of the Losties will not resolve their internal struggles simply because they won’t be forced to confront them as they were on the island. For example, Charlie is being carted away in handcuffs wishing he were dead. Kate is still a fugitive on the run. Sawyer is still a con-man. Locke is still in a wheelchair. Sun and Jin’s marriage is still in major trouble. Rose is probably still dying of cancer. I’m not convinced they will resolve these things off the island as they were able to do on the island.

It is certainly going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. I am personally very happy to see two timelines, as confusing as it may seem at the moment. I would have been severely disappointed if the bomb thing worked as planned and we basically never got to see the island again, never got to see what happened with Jacob and his nemesis, etc. But then, it is really cool to see what would happen if the plane had never crashed.

If not for the shot of the island at the bottom of the ocean in the non-crash timeline, I would have thought that the two timelines would converge by showing us how all the Losties got to the island even without the crash of Flight 815 (since, right now, the non-crash timeline is in 2004 and the crash timeline is in 2007).
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You’re probably right that not everything will be wrapped up in a neat little bow. Some ultimate tragedy and sacrifice will probably happen in the end. And some characters will suffer, since life is full of suffering and isn’t fair.
 
Good thoughts nova.

Its stuff like this that makes Lost a good show for rumination and reflection. . . even getting us to think about the mysteries of faith.

When all is said and done, though, I have some apprehension about the conclusion of this show. Given what JJ Abrams is like (see his “mystery box” in my earlier post) I think it is possible (probable?!) that there won’t be any conclusion that makes any sense. Mysteries will be left totally unsolved. Maybe that is the whole object of this show. . . maybe the show isn’t really about solving any mysteries but rather how mysteries allow the writers to explore characters. It might be a character driven show and not a plot driven show.

Someone mentioned the NUMBERS earlier. I think this is an example of what I mean. The numbers as part of an equation regarding the end of the world is info that was in a Lost game. It is canonical but the writers have said that they didn’t really want it to be common knowledge. They just don’t care about it. What?

The reason: because they just like how the numbers drive the story and characters forward. What the numbers are or how they work isn’t important.

I fear that many other things are going to be “numbers”. I think we might not get the answers we are hoping to get.

VC
 
Regarding the mystery box, it is a useful device to keep people interested. But it also tends to frustrate fans and make them feel cheated. I think a lot of people feel that the show just doesn’t deliver on answers. For every answer it gives, it generates three more questions. This is part of the reason the ratings decline every season (along with the show being so multi-layered and dense that it is frustrating to casual viewers).

I don’t think Lindelof and Cuse will keep the main plot threads a mystery at the end (although some threads will deliberately not be tied up to keep people wondering and talking for years). This show is theirs now, and Abrams passed the torch during the first season. In fact, in an interview he denied that he would return to direct the final episode. He said the show was theirs, and that he merely had used his name and some seed ideas to launch the show; they were the true show runners.

Still it would be kind of cool if they defied all convention and did something as truly frustrating and challenging as leaving the show with an ambiguous mystery ending. They would get roasted in the press for it though. 😃
 
My wife has already convinced herself that they are not going to satisfactorily answer most of the big questions on the show. I think she just wants to lower her expectations so she’s not as disappointed. 😃

I, on the other hand, am cautiously optimistic that the show will have a great ending. I really think they’ll answer all the big questions. I’m sure there will be minor continuity errors or unanswered questions, but those don’t really bother me (for example, it wouldn’t really bother me if we never find out why Libby was in the mental hospital).

I think that nova is right about some of the loose ends being deliberately not tied up. Not that they won’t answer the big questions at all, but those answers might be ambiguous and open to interpretation. Almost any good story has that element in it, though.

I believe that on Jimmy Kimmel, Cuse and Lindelof said that the numbers will be more fully explained in the next several episodes. I guess we’ll see…
 
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