LOST season 6

[irishpatrick]

Actually, They all had things to “settle”. Locke was fighting with his wheel chair bound-ness, but wouldn’t let Jack fix it… Jack and his son had to learn to communitcate… Ben wanted to oust the principal…

Purgatory is much more than that…not even close…

 

[bookgirl32]

I am hearing people say over-and-over that the alternate realities were really purgatory for those who had died. Even some Catholic Radio was saying that this morning.

I could not disagree more strongly. Those alternate realities were far from being a place of purifiying. Most of the people in the alternate realities had a happy and improved life. For example: Jack had a son that he was very close to and he seemed to really love being a doctor again. Ben was a teacher, so was Locke, they both appeared quite happy. Purgatory is NOT a happy place, it is a place of purgation, where we are purified before we enter Heaven. I saw NO purifying in those alternate realities.

I don’t think it’s too far off of the mark to say that the Sideways world had what would be “elements” of purgatory as interpreted by the mind of someone not familiar with all of the theological truths of actual Purgatory. That some were “not ready” to go on, that they were somehow “suffering” by not knowing eachother. I certainly don’t think it’s a truthful representation of what Purgatory really is, but that the concept of it influenced the writers isn’t that far of a stretch.

 

[cjbauere]

cj,

That last scene was somewhat like a meditative painting. If you are familiar with video games – it was the scenery with the credits. A homage to the island and the plane that brought them there.
VC

Possibly, but to me it encompassed the “big picture”. That being that everything, the alternate lives, the associations with other people on and off the island, were all part of the journey. The image of the plane wreckage on a deserted island was nothing more than that.

 

[irishpatrick]

I don’t think it’s too far off of the mark to say that the Sideways world had what would be “elements” of purgatory as interpreted by the mind of someone not familiar with all of the theological truths of actual Purgatory. That some were “not ready” to go on, that they were somehow “suffering” by not knowing eachother. I certainly don’t think it’s a truthful representation of what Purgatory really is, but that the concept of it influenced the writers isn’t that far of a stretch.

I just think it is dangerous to paint purgatory as some happy land, which was how the alt-lives seemed to me. Jack was very happy, so were Ben and Locke…

 

[Verbum_Caro]

cj,

I think I misread your prior post as positing that their afterlife “purgation” began with the plane crash, i.e. that they all died then. That is was I responding to. I misinterpreted what you meant that the crash began their purgation.

But, in that sense, their whole lives (and ours) is part of our purgation.

VC

 

[bookgirl32]

I just think it is dangerous to paint purgatory as some happy land, which was hoe the alt-lives seemed to me. Jack was very happy, so were Ben and Locke…

Oh I completely agree, which is why I said it was someone who didn’t understand Purgatory who was creating the symbolism. But I do think the idea of it, however wrongly portrayed, could definitely be an influence.

 

[bookgirl32]

Oh I completely agree, which is why I said it was someone who didn’t understand Purgatory who was creating the symbolism. But I do think the idea of it, however wrongly portrayed, could definitely be an influence.

That being said though, people aren’t necessarily unhappy in purgatory, even though we probably won’t enjoy it. I mean, you get there and you know you’re going to Heaven, you’re that much closer. It sucks not to be there yet, but you’re a lot closer than on Earth. I’ll be pretty happy to make it there if/when I hopefully do!

 

[irishpatrick]

Oh I completely agree, which is why I said it was someone who didn’t understand Purgatory who was creating the symbolism. But I do think the idea of it, however wrongly portrayed, could definitely be an influence.

Well, anyway, I was very happy until the last 10 minutes. I thought the last ten minutes made the rest hard to take.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am hearing people say over-and-over that the alternate realities were really purgatory for those who had died. Even some Catholic Radio was saying that this morning.

I could not disagree more strongly. Those alternate realities were far from being a place of purifiying. Most of the people in the alternate realities had a happy and improved life. For example: Jack had a son that he was very close to and he seemed to really love being a doctor again. Ben was a teacher, so was Locke, they both appeared quite happy. Purgatory is NOT a happy place, it is a place of purgation, where we are purified before we enter Heaven. I saw NO purifying in those alternate realities.

Well, yes and no. I heard one Catholic philosopher once comment that in Purgatory, one likely experiences pain that is more severe than any while on earth, but also happiness and joy that is more profound than any on earth. After all, if you’re in Purgatory, you know you’re going to end up in Heaven. That has to be cause for some joy.

Maybe I’m off the mark, but the last scene (as the credits were rolling), which showed the wreckage on the island led me to believe that everything we watched was part of their purgation…so-to-speak. The island really had no special energy, etc.

Yes, you’re off the mark.

I’m with VC. I didn’t think anything of those scenes beyond the fact that it was a simply photo montage that takes us back to the beginning. It would seem quite peculiar to me for Lindelof and Cuse to basically undercut the reality of the entire show by showing a few silent photos as the credits were rolling.

I think they are just meaning it’s a place where they are before they move on to… Heaven? Or whatever your beliefs may be?

Right. They want to leave it open enough that people from a wide-variety of religious beliefs can all find something that resonates with them. Their primary goal is telling a story, not catechizing.

That’s the crux of the ending, IMO. Even Lostpedia is describing the flash-sideways reality as “a complex version of Purgatory,” but that doesn’t mean that the fiction is going to mirror the reality exactly. Further, even if they were going for a narrative element that was exclusive to the Catholic Christian worldview, that doesn’t mean they necessarily understand that theological concept 100% accurately.

Throughout the episode, I found myself wanting the alt-reality to become the actual reality. Then Charlie and Sayid and the Kwons and everyone who died would all be alive and live happiply ever after. But I realized that, if that happened, all the events of the island would almost have been for naught. The whole idea that the island needed to be protected to prevent evil from getting unleashed would have been demonstrably false. Such an ending would not have been a good one.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I want to try to avoid over-generalizations but what is interesting to me is what I perceive as a backlash from viewers regarding the “spiritual” ending of the show. My sense is that even the quasi-purgatory is unintelligible to them.

Interesting – perhaps we are seeing the final chapters of the post-Christian culture, where even religious imagery has lost it’s meaning for some folks. The vocabulary has changed. And anything that uses the old vocabulary (I don’t mean words, I mean ideas) is scoffed at and misunderstood. It might even produce anger or fear?

VC

 

[cjbauere]

Yes, you’re off the mark.

I’m with VC. I didn’t think anything of those scenes beyond the fact that it was a simply photo montage that takes us back to the beginning. It would seem quite peculiar to me for Lindelof and Cuse to basically undercut the reality of the entire show by showing a few silent photos as the credits were rolling.

I disagree, the reality (albeit a spiritual one) becomes even more real. Not to be confused with the final scene of the “Newhart” show, where it was just a dream.

 

[irishpatrick]

I want to try to avoid over-generalizations but what is interesting to me is what I perceive as a backlash from viewers regarding the “spiritual” ending of the show. My sense is that even the quasi-purgatory is unintelligible to them.

Interesting – perhaps we are seeing the final chapters of the post-Christian culture, where even religious imagery has lost it’s meaning for some folks. The vocabulary has changed. And anything that uses the old vocabulary (I don’t mean words, I mean ideas) is scoffed at and misunderstood. It might even produce anger or fear?

VC

I do not see that backlash…

 

[Mumbles140]

Before I begin, I understand that it is not an accurate representation of Purgatory, but for the sake of simplicity (since everyone here ultimately agrees) I will refer to it as that…

That being said though, people aren’t necessarily unhappy in purgatory, even though we probably won’t enjoy it. I mean, you get there and you know you’re going to Heaven, you’re that much closer. It sucks not to be there yet, but you’re a lot closer than on Earth. I’ll be pretty happy to make it there if/when I hopefully do!

I agree with you completely! Yes, it is a place of purgation, and there may be some mentally/emotionally/physically enduring things that must occur, but these are not in place for punishment in the sense of Hell, but rather in penance to make one’s soul pure to see the full glory of God, and someone on that path would likely not be sad about it, for there is no greater joy than to enter the Heavenly Kingdom.

That being said, I like to think that they were not entering Heaven from the Church, but rather beginning the journey through ‘Purgatory’. The ‘moving on’ could signify the journey ahead of them, and that begins with the full realization of their earthly lives. Perhaps Ben and the others weren’t ready to begin the journey, but they at least knew where to begin the second step. As for others, who never fully repented/changed (i.e. Michael), well he was left as one of the voices in the distance.

On a side note, did anyone else find it humorous that all of their ‘near-death’ experiences were actually ‘near-life’?

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

WOW! What an INCREDIBLE experience. My wife and I shed some tears. Even watching the 2 hr show beforehand was kind of emotional.

Overall - I hadn’t decided whether I loved or hated it. I’m leaning towards the love part.

I think of Stephen King’s The Gun Slinger and how after I read the cop-out of an ending, how I hate King and will never read anything by him again.

But I don’t feel that way right now about LOST. I haven’t taken it all in yet. I think I need a couple days to digest it.

But I’m so glad I was a part of the experience. I think we were part of a cultural phenomonen.

A couple of thoughts for now. When it was all over, the scene at the credits threw me. I was going back and forth in my mind about whether what happened on the island was real or whether they all died in the plane crash. I think VC helped me reach a conclusion in his summary. But if he’s correct in his explanation to cj that the last scene was just a meditative image - they picked a REAL POOR image. I would’ve prefered credits. And I think it wasn’t just an image. It was footage with waves crashing and stuff. (can you tell I’m still not 100% sure) It seemed almost like a typical LOST moment - it looks like this is the answer, but is it? I HOPE they didn’t do that. That’d be really frustrating to get a final kick the pants and leave us wondering because they didn’t HAVE TO do that.

My wife totally called it moments before it ended that it’d end w/ Jack closing his eyes. 'course she was sobbing at that moment.

The church scene was interesting. I lost my mom 5 years ago so it was a bit difficult for me in the sense that it made me think of my loss of her and what a huge gaping hole I still have in my life.

The different images on the stain glass - while I would’ve prefered them not to be there, it didn’t offend me in any way. I see this a sci-fi story and alien religions in a sci-fi story wouldn’t offend me, so why should it here? the only offense I’d find in sci-fi is if the author went out of his way to be offensive (think Phillip Pullman - The Golden Compass).

I almost wonder that as a Catholic, I saw Catholic imagery and theological ideas in LOST. If I were a Buddhist, would I have identified with some of the themes as well? Or a Muslim? etc.

Everyone’s right - purgatory it wasn’t. But I think, or hope at least, that it was obvious that it wasn’t?

There were absolutely brilliant things. The phrases that characters had repeated to one another at different time. Jack’s neck bleeding in the Alt-U.

I loved watching how each of the character’s ‘realized’.

 

[Maeglin]

From what I’ve seen on Lostpedia, the strongest critics of “The End” are those who were wedded to the sci-fi/ancient civilization themes in Lost and wanted scientific driven answers. A lot of them seem to be very disappointed that the end was spiritual and did not have a strong sci-fi angle they could swallow.

There is also a lot of anger at how many threads were left dangling with no answers. I agree with the second criticism, but this is more a criticism with Season 6 as a whole rather then the finale (which was rightfully character driven).

 

[irishpatrick]

Before I begin, I understand that it is not an accurate representation of Purgatory, but for the sake of simplicity (since everyone here ultimately agrees) I will refer to it as that…

I agree with you completely! Yes, it is a place of purgation, and there may be some mentally/emotionally/physically enduring things that must occur, but these are not in place for punishment in the sense of Hell, but rather in penance to make one’s soul pure to see the full glory of God, and someone on that path would likely not be sad about it, for there is no greater joy than to enter the Heavenly Kingdom.

That being said, I like to think that they were not entering Heaven from the Church, but rather beginning the journey through ‘Purgatory’. The ‘moving on’ could signify the journey ahead of them, and that begins with the full realization of their earthly lives. Perhaps Ben and the others weren’t ready to begin the journey, but they at least knew where to begin the second step. As for others, who never fully repented/changed (i.e. Michael), well he was left as one of the voices in the distance.

On a side note, did anyone else find it humorous that all of their ‘near-death’ experiences were actually ‘near-life’?

I think we need to be careful when we think purgatory is NOT a place of deep suffering. We are purified as through fire while in pugatory…does not sound like fun to me.

 

[Joe_5859]

Did anyone else find it significant that Jack had a wound in his side both at the beginning and the end?

I think that, in the interest of finding a non-Purgatory name for the flash-sideways reality, we should all refer to it as the “West Side”. Thus, we can simultaneously refer to the flash-sideways reality as a true “West Side Story” from which the Losties hope to “move on up to the East Side” once they are done. As far as the “east” is from the “west” is how far our transgressions are removed from us.

Okay, maybe not.

 

[irishpatrick]

Did anyone else find it significant that Jack had a wound in his side both at the beginning and the end?

I think that, in the interest of finding a non-Purgatory name for the flash-sideways reality, we should all refer to it as the “West Side”. Thus, we can simultaneously refer to the flash-sideways reality as a true “West Side Story” from which the Losties hope to “move on up to the East Side” once they are done. As far as the “east” is from the “west” is how far our transgressions are removed from us.

Okay, maybe not.

I like that…

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I do not see that backlash…

patrick,

Not here – just “out there” on the internet, and among some critics?

VC

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

There is still a ton of stuff that isn’t answered, such as what became of the island, what happened to Miles and Richard and the pilot (can’t remember his name) because Kate and Sawyer were also on the exact same plane. What happens to Aaron? Or Sun and Jin’s child? They left so many open ended scenerios, and that’s the stuff I’m disappointed in.

I couldn’t help but smile at this one PatriceA. I dated a girl and she CONSTANTLY complained after reading books & watching movies - what about this? what about that? She always wanted to know what happened to this character or that AFTER the happily ever after. You’re not her are you?

What was up with Desmond? Why did Widmore’s electromagnetic bath enable him to be aware of Rememberatory and the Island? Curiously, the Island Desmond didn’t think Rememberatory was Rememberatory but was another real universe.

1. Who were the skeletons in the Light Cave? Did something like this happen before? Were they guardians? The builders of the plug?

Desmond was really a wild card. I think he’s one of the things I’ll have to contemplate for awhile. Maybe it’s just gotta be accepted though? Kinda like the mom & Jacob & MIB and their superpowers, etc.

I took the other skeletons in the cave at the time as other guardians but the builders of the plug is an intriguing idea. While I’m sure there’s some idea in the writer’s heads, I don’t know that we’ll ever find out what they’re thinking because it doesn’t really matter to the story I think.

So, they all had to “let go” of something? And, maybe also remember something?

The first scene of this season after the Bomb was Rose telling Jack that “it is ok to let go now”. Jack told that to Locke, Locke to Jack, Desmond to Locke – can anyone think of anyone else?

VC

That’s an interesting observation - Rose told that to Jack on the plane in the Alt-U at the start. Sheer brilliance!