Lost the cultural debate on homosexuality

[urban-hermit]

I found this passage in our beloved John Paul II’s “Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality” which sheds a little light on the debate about whether one is obliged to seek therapy. I don’t find it to be definitive, but … well, read it! I highlighted some stuff …

1. A particular problem that can appear during the process of sexual maturation is homosexuality, which is also spreading more and more in urbanized societies. This phenomenon must be presented with balanced judgement, in the light of the documents of the Church.130 Young people need to be helped to distinguish between the concepts of what is normal and abnormal, between subjective guilt and objective disorder, avoiding what would arouse hostility. On the other hand, the structural and complementary orientation of sexuality must be well clarified in relation to marriage, procreation and Christian chastity. “Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained”.131 **A distinction must be made between a tendency that can be innate and acts of homosexuality that “are intrinsically disordered”**132 **and contrary to Natural Law.**133

Especially when the practice of homosexual acts has not become a habit, many cases can benefit from appropriate therapy. In any case, persons in this situation must be accepted with respect, dignity and delicacy, and all forms of unjust discrimination must be avoided. If parents notice the appearance of this tendency or of related behaviour in their children, during childhood or adolescence, they should seek help from expert qualified persons in order to obtain all possible assistance.

For most homosexual persons, this condition constitutes a trial. “They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition”.134 **“Homosexual persons are called to chastity”.**135

How can a homosexual person be called to chastity?
If chastity encompasses changing one’s homosexuality, why doesn’t any document I can find say that clearly?

Also, the definition of chastity in New Advent’s Catholic Encyclopedia starts out:

Chastity is the virtue which excludes or moderates the indulgence of the sexual appetite.

 

[Digger71]

Again, the gifts that God gives us, we are morally obliged to use. Christ illustrates this starkly in Scripture:

To encourage anyone to complacency without investigating reparative therapy for themselves betrays either indifference, ignorance or both.

(1) New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Matt. 25:14-30. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm

Or…the tale of the talents could be interpreted as chiding gay men for not using gods gift of gayness to it’s fullest, instead burying it.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I found this passage in our beloved John Paul II’s “Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality” which sheds a little light on the debate about whether one is obliged to seek therapy. I don’t find it to be definitive, but … well, read it! I highlighted some stuff …
How can a homosexual person be called to chastity?
If chastity encompasses changing one’s homosexuality, why doesn’t any document I can find say that clearly?

Also, the definition of chastity in New Advent’s Catholic Encyclopedia starts out:

Outside of the Bible the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to look:

2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.

 

[blessedtoo]

Or…the tale of the talents could be interpreted as chiding gay men for not using gods gift of gayness to it’s fullest, instead burying it.

Sorry, Digger, nice try . Let us not confuse the issue being discussed here. “Gayness” is most certainly not “God’s gift”. Homosexuality is one of the many disordered manifestations of man’s fallen nature.

Especially when the practice of homosexual acts has not become a habit, many cases can benefit from appropriate therapy.

Of course I agree completely with JPII here but one has to be careful when advocating for certain “appropriate” therapies. He could have been referring to any number of approaches which may or may not have included “reparative”. Having been in therapy for most of my adult life, I can testify that it is completely possible to achieve one’s goals of chastity and “sexual integration” by practicing abstinence while prayerfully contemplating what drives the disordered desires.

If parents notice the appearance of this tendency or of related behaviour in their children, during childhood or adolescence, they should seek help from expert qualified persons in order to obtain all possible assistance.

With regard to children who may be experiencing confusion about their sexuality, I do think therapy is essential. If a youngster’s spiritual and prayer life is immature (as most are in adolesence) a more agressive method of intervention would probably be beneficial. In addition, I think that for parents of kids with this confusion, it is especially difficult to hold fast to Church teaching in the face of secular cultural pressures to “tolerate” the child’s behavior no matter what. Additional help from, as JPII said, “expert qualified professional” may be required.

 

[Other_Eric]

Other Eric
This is spin and poor spin at that so have you tried Reparative Therapy? Or is there someone very close to you, who you wish to push into Reparative Therapy?

God made you the way you are, and it had nothing to do with Reparative Theories

God does not “make” people into homosexuals. Same-sex attractions are not simply just another benign variant of the sexual faculty; they are a corruption of it. Same-sex attractions in no way form a genuine component of a person’s identity; they bury the true human identity under innumerable layers of psychosis. As countless case studies testify, reparative therapy works for those who are willing to put in the effort required. Reparative therapy has produced concrete results making it far more that just a theory.

 

[Other_Eric]

I found this passage in our beloved John Paul II’s “Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality” which sheds a little light on the debate about whether one is obliged to seek therapy. I don’t find it to be definitive, but … well, read it! I highlighted some stuff …
How can a homosexual person be called to chastity?
If chastity encompasses changing one’s homosexuality, why doesn’t any document I can find say that clearly?

Also, the definition of chastity in New Advent’s Catholic Encyclopedia starts out:

Homosexual persons live in chastity by becoming heterosexual persons. That you cannot find the exact phrase you need in order to form your own conscience does not imply that there exists no moral requirement to heal one’s sexuality. The sexuality is properly moderated when it is directed to its proper end.

 

[urban-hermit]

God does not “make” people into homosexuals. Same-sex attractions are not simply just another benign variant of the sexual faculty; they are a corruption of it. Same-sex attractions in no way form a genuine component of a person’s identity; they bury the true human identity under innumerable layers of psychosis. As countless case studies testify, reparative therapy works for those who are willing to put in the effort required. Reparative therapy has produced concrete results making it far more that just a theory.

But the problem with your insistence that chastity is only possible when a person has successfully completed reparative therapy is that even proponents of reparative therapy admit it does not always work. As I already posted, even those who are highly motivated only enjoy a 30% success rate.

With all due respect, this points to the difficulty of the process, of which you may be ignorant.

Those who fail in this endeavor are not doomed to an unchaste life. That is simply false.

I agree that chastity involves integrating your sexuality. In the case of a person who is unsuccessful with reparative therapy that means learning how not to indulge homosexual urges, whether in action or in fantasy. I realize this is a tall order. As one who struggles with it, I agree it is difficult. But as others have posted, and anybody who has struggled and made progress in this endeavor can tell you, it really does get easier and more rewarding as you persevere in the effort.

 

[Other_Eric]

Or…the tale of the talents could be interpreted as chiding gay men for not using gods gift of gayness to it’s fullest, instead burying it.

Well, if one were to believe that the Bible alone constituted all of Divine Revelation, you might have a point. Since Catholics also have Tradition to inform us what the Bible means and since, by this Tradition, Catholics know same-sex attractions to be not a gift, but a curse, Catholics can quite comfortably fail to interpret this passage in such an errant and self-serving way.

 

[Other_Eric]

But the problem with your insistence that chastity is only possible when a person has successfully completed reparative therapy is that even proponents of reparative therapy admit it does not always work. As I already posted, even those who are highly motivated only enjoy a 30% success rate.

With all due respect, this points to the difficulty of the process, of which you may be ignorant.

Those who fail in this endeavor are not doomed to an unchaste life. That is simply false.

I agree that chastity involves integrating your sexuality. In the case of a person who is unsuccessful with reparative therapy that means learning how not to indulge homosexual urges, whether in action or in fantasy. I realize this is a tall order. As one who struggles with it, I agree it is difficult. But as others have posted, and anybody who has struggled and made progress in this endeavor can tell you, it really does get easier and more rewarding as you persevere in the effort.

The 30% figure, which is one touted by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is not qualified as to “highly motivated” patients, rather it is drawn from the entire pool of Nicolosi’s patients.(1) This is significant as your point that “even the highly motivated” fail, is based on a false understanding of the statistic you are using.

(1) “Preventing Homosexuality.” Catholic Answers LIVE. Joseph Nicolosi. San Diego. June 27, 2005. Available online at: catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=3568&date=2005-06-27

 

[urban-hermit]

I already posted that the Catholic Encyclopedia Definition of CHASTITY says:

Chastity is the virtue which excludes or moderates the indulgence of the sexual appetite.

But here is something from a private message I received which I think describes chastity in a more personal way:

It’s in the doing … er, the not-doing … or maybe it’s really in the why-you’re-not-doing. Perfect chastity is turning from lust toward love with such decision that all your energy is spent doing acts of love for God and neighbor and you literally cannot be bothered with lust.

 

[urban-hermit]

The 30% figure, which is one touted by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is not qualified as to “highly motivated” patients, rather it is drawn from the entire pool of Nicolosi’s patients.(1) This is significant as your point that “even the highly motivated” fail, is based on a false understanding of the statistic you are using.

(1) “Preventing Homosexuality.” Catholic Answers LIVE. Joseph Nicolosi. San Diego. June 27, 2005. Available online at: catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=3568&date=2005-06-27

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you’re right and some of Dr. Nicolosi’s patients are not highly motivated. He nowhere says that high motivation guarantees success.

You are still dodging the undeniable problem that sometimes motivated and earnest Christians try and fail with reparative therapy.

 

[urban-hermit]

The 30% figure, which is one touted by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is not qualified as to “highly motivated” patients, rather it is drawn from the entire pool of Nicolosi’s patients.(1) This is significant as your point that “even the highly motivated” fail, is based on a false understanding of the statistic you are using.

(1) “Preventing Homosexuality.” Catholic Answers LIVE. Joseph Nicolosi. San Diego. June 27, 2005. Available online at: catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=3568&date=2005-06-27

By the way I highly recommend this link Other Eric has shared. Dr. Nicolosi is very good and a leader in this field.

 

[seekerz]

I encourage you to read the citation back to the infallible scripture that identifies the sin of idolatry as the genesis for same-sex attraction. Of course, I suppose, like others with same-sex attraction, you could choose to ignore the scripture that does not support your worldview. Indeed, I tend to automatically discount, as should any orthodox Christian, any sort of “experience” which flies in the face of Divine Revelation or Church teaching.

Many, many conditions/diseases in our world have their origins in sin e.g. the spread of STD’s. That does not mean that every single person with an STD got it as a result of their personal sin e.g a baby born with HIV or a transfusion receipient with hepatitis.

How you can go from sin being the genesis of a condition to the implication that SSA in a particular person is a result of their personal sin (seems that’s what you’re implying) and therefore ‘fixable’ by them, is beyond me.

I’m no authority on the spiritual issues being disussed here, but it would seem to be that the Church’s official stand is considerably more compassionate than some of the views expressed here. Maybe those members should just stick to thanking God that SSA is not the cross they have to bear.

To those who choose to deal with SSA according to Church teaching, I say kudos to you. May God bless you and keep you and make His face to shine upon you and give you His peace.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

The way to combat homosexual behavior (not those with burdened with SSA), is to expose the truth. What is homosexual behavior? What is its purpose? What are its ends (results)? These are the questions that many do not want asked, because the answers lead all to a better understanding of phenomena. When the discussion centers on the real and the true, shadows are cast aside, and there is no place to hide. When we allow the truth to be ignored, as if it does not exist, we fail.

 

[Other_Eric]

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you’re right and some of Dr. Nicolosi’s patients are not highly motivated. He nowhere says that high motivation guarantees success.

You are still dodging the undeniable problem that sometimes motivated and earnest Christians try and fail with reparative therapy.

On the contrary, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi does positively link motivation, an aspect of the will, with success in therapy. (1) The hypothetical example of the highly motivated individual who still fails in therapy is more a product of the scare tactics currently in vogue with homosexual apologists than it is a sober assessment of reality.

(1) Nicolosi, Joseph. Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality: A New Clinical Approach. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1997 p. 243.

 

[Other_Eric]

I already posted that the Catholic Encyclopedia Definition of CHASTITY says:

But here is something from a private message I received which I think describes chastity in a more personal way:

I again repeat that since the Church teaches that the sexuality “concerns affectivity, the capacity to love” (1) and even “the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others,” (2) an individual with a disordered sexuality, such as one subject to same-sex attractions, is not capable of turning to acts of love, since he or she is psychologically incapable of it.

Moreover, I still do not see that you have much of a point with your brief citation of the Catholic Encyclopedia. The refusal to work towards the repair of a disordered sexuality is, itself, an unseemly indulgence of that sinful appetite. The proper moderation of this appetite implies the elimination of the errant impulse. Indeed, according to the same Catholic Encyclopedia:

[Chastity’s] motive would be the natural decency seen in the control of the sexual appetite, according to the norm of reason. (3)

One who refuses the healing that reparative therapy provides is abdicating the control of his sexuality that chastity requires.

(1) Catechism of the Catholic Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. ¶ 2332. Available online at: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P84.HTM

(2) Ibid.

(3) Melody, John W. “Chastity.” The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1908. Available online at: newadvent.org/cathen/03637d.htm

 

[Other_Eric]

Many, many conditions/diseases in our world have their origins in sin e.g. the spread of STD’s. That does not mean that every single person with an STD got it as a result of their personal sin e.g a baby born with HIV or a transfusion receipient with hepatitis.

How you can go from sin being the genesis of a condition to the implication that SSA in a particular person is a result of their personal sin (seems that’s what you’re implying) and therefore ‘fixable’ by them, is beyond me.

The scripture that I have cited is unambiguous in its identification of idolatry as the actual sin that leads to same-sex attractions. (1) Man turns his back on God and therefore falls into the perversion of same-sex attractions as well as other psychoses.

Same-sex attractions, being a disorder of the mind, cannot be adequately equated to a sexually transmitted disease or any other physical ailment. Science indicates that a character flaw or other mental openness to the disorder must be present in order for same-sex attractions to manifest themselves. (2)

Christopher West eloquently illustrates this dynamic of idolatry that we freely choose and that leads us into the disorder of same-sex attractions in the following anecdote:

This inner dynamic became a very pointed reality for me one day as I was working at one of my first jobs out of college. The woman who sat behind me was the kind of girl who hung Chippendale posters in her cubicle. These images of muscle-bound studs in tight spandex pants and bow ties tapped into all my insecurities, so I avoided her cubicle like the plague. One day I reluctantly overheard a conversation she was having with a friend. She described a dream she’d had of a similar stud who rode up the beach on his white stallion and had wild sex with her in the waves.

I’m not prone to visions, but I had one right then and there as I was trying my darnedest not to listen to her conversation. I saw the man she described walking down the beach. He was everything that years of living in this society had convinced me it meant to be a man: muscle-bound, attractive, sleek. He wasn’t just *a *man. He was the man. At some place in my soul, he was what I wanted to be, but wasn’t.

Then I saw another man walking beside him. He was everything that society had convinced me was not manly. Nothing drew me to him at all. He was weak, disfigured, beaten, bloody. He wore a crown of thorns on his head and had scourge marks all over his body.

Then a voice posed a question to me. I can only assume it was the voice of God. It said: “Who is the real man, and with whom do you wish to identify?”

I was stunned. I realized at that moment that I had been believing, even worshipping, a lie. I realized at that moment that all my insecurity as a man stemmed from positing my identity in a false image of masculinity.

My heart cried out: “Jesus, you’re the real man. I choose to identify with you.” (3)

Italics in original. For West, his insecurities of his own masculinity fueled a nascent homosexual orientation. Indeed, he admits to having had doubts regarding his orientation before this episode. (4)

The point to take from all this is that it is hardly outside the realm of Catholic thought to believe that same-sex attractions form as a result of decisions we make every day and are in perfect control of. Since the attractions manifest themselves when an individual turns his back on God, he experiences healing once he brings himself back to God.

(1) New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Rom 1:22-27. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans1.htm

(2) Nicolosi, Joseph and Linda Ames Nicolosi. A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality. Downer’s Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2002. p. 33

(3) West, Christopher. Good News About Sex & Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions about Catholic Teaching. Cincinnati, OH: St. Anthony Messenger Press, 1997. pp. 154-155.

(4) Ibid., p. 146.

 

[blessedtoo]

Church teaches that the sexuality “concerns affectivity, the capacity to love” (1) and even “the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others,”

While the Catechism does indeed state the above, it does not draw this conclusion:

an individual with a disordered sexuality, such as one subject to same-sex attractions, is not capable of turning to acts of love, since he or she is psychologically incapable of it

I honestly do not know how you can make such a statement and call it Church teaching. Nowhere in the catechism does it say such a thing about SSA individuals being incapable of love. What it does say is (one more time):

2343 Chastity has laws of growth which** progress through stages marked by imperfection and too often by sin.** "Man . . . day by day builds himself up through his many free decisions; and so he knows, loves, and accomplishes moral good by stages of growth."129

2344 Chastity represents an **eminently personal task; **it also involves a cultural effort, for there is "an interdependence between personal betterment and the improvement of society."130 Chastity presupposes respect for the rights of the person, in particular the right to receive information and an education that respect the moral and spiritual dimensions of human life.

2345** Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.**131 The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.132

And the final word in the Catechism regarding homosexuality:

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

The Church does not give a separate directive on chastity for homosexuals. It does not require that they undergo any treatment unless they are compelled to do so. And it never, ever suggests that because of their SSA, they are incapable of forming bonds of love.

The refusal to work towards the repair of a disordered sexuality is, itself, an unseemly indulgence of that sinful appetite. The proper moderation of this appetite implies the elimination of the errant impulse. One who refuses the healing that reparative therapy provides is abdicating the control of his sexuality that chastity requires.

OtherEric, I am beginning to tire of this absurd screed. You continue to stridently advocate your own opinion as Church teaching. IT IS NOT. You can quote 1,000 extra-Catechetical sources and any other documents you wish, but the Catechism is clear. You are extracting superfluous and somewhat suspect “meaning” that you hope will drive your agenda (which is still a mystery to me). And in your belligerence, you refuse to see what is right in front of you. The folks you continue to argue with are actually practicing Catholics who are living proof that living chastely in accordance with the demands of their Church is not only possible but happening today. You, as a lapsed Catholic who has admitted to never even knowing any homosexuals, claim to know more and speak more authoritatively. Sorry. It’s becoming a bore.

 

[blessedtoo]

For West, his insecurities of his own masculinity fueled a nascent homosexual orientation.

This is your interpretation of West’s story about the muscle-bound he-man? Even though he CLEARLY states that his desire was to BE LIKE the man, not BE WITH the man?

That you perceived a “nascent homosexual orientation” as the point of West’s story speaks volumes.

 

[Other_Eric]

This is your interpretation of West’s story about the muscle-bound he-man? Even though he CLEARLY states that his desire was to BE LIKE the man, not BE WITH the man?

That you perceived a “nascent homosexual orientation” as the point of West’s story speaks volumes.

Check the citation again. The nascent homosexual orientation Christopher West talks about is indeed explicit in the text.