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reaganjn
Guest
my youngest daughter was baptized in an episcopal church and will receive her first communion next spring in our catholic church
she is receiving instructing now each sunday about her soon to be new catholic faith.
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she is receiving instructing now each sunday about her soon to be new catholic faith.
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kage_ar
Guest
The Church recognizes as valid Trinitarian baptisms.
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Seatuck
Guest
Don’t children at or above the age of reason have to convert to receive more Sacraments, though?
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momor
Guest
I remember at the Easter vigil there were some who were received into the Church by saying the profession of faith. There was so much going on it was kind of confusing but I think these were people already baptized in another church. They had all gone through RCIA though for instruction in the faith.
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puzzleannie
Guest
as I say you seem to be the most realistic person in this story
The child is Lutheran so he cannot receive sacraments in the Catholic Church unless he first makes a profession of faith and becomes Catholic, at which time he would received confirmation and first communion. This cannot be done without the permission of the custodial parent(s) and may not be done at all for the same reasons a baptism would be delayed (not denied), if the Catholic parent cannot give assurance the child will be raised in the Catholic Faith. She is not willing to do this for herself, let alone the child, so the child is Lutheran and should be educated in that faith and initiated in their sacraments at the appropriate age. If your wife came to me, this is what I would tell her. She has effectively defected from the Catholic Faith, and should not be presenting herself for Catholic sacraments until she is ready to return fully to Catholic life and practice, beginning with sacramental confession. That is what I am guessing a priest would tell her. Whether you want to go there is up to you but I sure don’t recommend it.
I neglected to say that the child himself must request Catholic initiation, and prepare for it, since he now is an adult for those purposes, though as a legal minor must still have the parents’ permission.
your other question was, does this happen to other families? yes all the time, especially this time of year, parents of nominally Catholic families bring children for first communion and we find out for the first time they were baptized in a non-CAtholic denomination, often by godparents or grandparents, and the parents are not even aware the minister or church was not Catholic. Another reason we insist parents partake in at least a minimal education on the sacraments and what it means to be Catholic.
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grandfather
Guest
Once individuals or groups come to believe they can define truth for themselves, as opposed to believing it is revealed and received by faith, they end up making up their own religion. They piece together whatever makes sense to their minds today and end up making no sense at all, as you are seeing.
The root of the word heretic is in the Greek. It originally meant someone who picks and chooses.
Denominationalism is a phenomenon that your wife typifies. Imagine a woman who is deciding what to wear to dinner or an event. She goes into the closet and has a dozen skirts, blouses, skarfs, pieces of jewelry and sweaters. She can put on any combination of colors and styles. Your wife is doing that doctrinally, putting on whatever suits her. But that mishmash of confusion began and grew from an original separation of the vine and branch. This is history, not theology. It has a root cause. All of these mixes of doctrine, denominations and now non-denominations claim they take their doctrines from the Bible, which is an absurd claim. The branch that was cleaved off from the vine by Luther has chopped itself into thousands of pieces.
Your wife seems to think she can be a Lutheran, Catholic and anything else all at the same time, blending whatever appeals to her. She has created her own personal religion.
While it makes no sense that she wants her children to participate in the sacraments of a religion she does not believe, you should not expect members of that religion to be able to explain her behavior to you. There are many people like her who feel some connection or affiliation to Catholicism, but are not at all Catholic in faith.
On the positive side there is within all souls, programmed in by their Creator, a desire for unity of all. Even when people argue about relgion and hold different views, the motive behind it is to come to agreement. Pope John Paul wrote an encyclical, That They all Might be One". Perhaps this is what is behind what appears to be irrational in your wife’s behavior, a desire for unity.
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Thomas63116
Guest
As others have said, I don’t know your wife, so I can’t really explain her. From what you’ve posted about her and from what I’ve seen from my own friends, family, and fellow parishoners, here are some of the things that may be going on.
- Her attachment to Catholicism is purely social/cultural. She has an emotional attachment to her Catholic upbrining, wants her children to have that experience, and wants to “fit in.” But she doesn’t really share any of the beliefs. This is pretty much what 1ke suggested.
- She has something of a synchristic view of religion, where her belief in the validity of the Catholic Church and its sacraments does not really limit her belief in the validity of other denominations/religions.
- She has a greater attachment to her Catholic parish than to the Catholic Church. She finds it to be a place where she has an authentic experience of Christian living and of the Sacraments. However, she does not have the same allegiance to or connection with the hierarchy or the “rules and regs” from the hierarchy.
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KindredSoul
Guest
Everyone here is giving you great answers insofar as your wife must stop with her Cafeteria Catholic mindset. However, I feel you should be aware of the ramifications of such an outcome, because it seems that maybe you are under the impression that if your wife realizes what true Catholicism is, she will simply concede that she cannot raise your son that way and all will be well between you. On the contrary. If your wife truly comes home to the Catholic Church, you have to realize that, whether you want to tolerate it or not, she will be compelled by conscience to fight tooth and nail to raise your child fully Catholic, including the things that you have absolutely refused to cooperate on or even allow. The child will be taught, by the mother, that the Catholic Church is the true Church, with the only true clergy (aside from the Orthodox Church), etc. She will do everything in her power, by instruction and maternal authority, to keep her son from receiving Lutheran communion while permitting, preparing, and instructing him to receive Catholic Communion. She will do anything, within Catholic moral boundaries of course, to keep you from interfering with the child’s Catholic upbringing. Since the marriage has never been convalidated, that may, as a strictly last resort, include leaving the marriage, as the ability to get an annulment for a marriage performed outside of the Church and never validated by the Church or specially permitted by Her is all but guaranteed as I understand. I don’t know your wife, so I don’t know if she would be willing to go that far, but it’s an option for her, religiously and morally speaking, if she feels you are too big a threat to the child’s Catholic upbringing, and you may want to be prepared.
I speak from my own perspective. If I were married and my wife was in any way trying to interfere with my rearing our children Catholic, I would do everything (morally licit) in my power to stop that interference. If your wife awakens to her faith deeply and truly, she may do the same. This isn’t advice, really, because you’re already in the predicament by having entered a relationship of this nature with a Catholic woman when you yourself are actually intolerant of the idea of her carrying out her Catholic duty toward your child uninhibited (no matter what she agreed upon, I can’t imagine being so against my child being strictly Catholic, as you seem to be, and yet marrying a Catholic woman knowing what her Faith demands should she ever begin to take it seriously). I just think you should be prepared for that possibility, emotionally. Like I said, I get the feeling that you think that her awakening to what Catholicism really requires would just make her give in to your take on how the child should be reared, but in fact it may just make her fight you all the harder.
The defining question is, is your wife a Catholic (albeit one in a willing state of denial) at her core? Basically, if your wife was forced to admit to herself that her beliefs currently are incompatible with Catholicism, would she give up Catholicism or get in line with it? If she proves, at the end of the day, to be a Catholic, then when faced with the realization of what Catholicism really requires, instead of her response being “Oh, well if that’s what it means to be Catholic, I’ll just leave the Church and raise our children Lutheran, because I don’t believe those things,” she may respond, against all expectation, “Oh, well if that’s what it means to be Catholic, I’d better get on the ball and get down to business by being a better Catholic and working harder on raising my child the same! It never clicked with me that if I’m Catholic I’ll just have to do these things whether I understand them or not.”
I hope that this can work out in a way that both you can be happy with, and your wife could be happy with even if she takes her Catholic Faith more seriously (since, as Catholics, obviously we would want her to move toward, not away from, the Church). No matter how the situation may seem, I pray that God will make a way, no matter how irreconcilable your differences may seem.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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prodigalson12
Guest
To be blunt, if you are a priest or bishop and insist upon being a “cafeteria” Catholic, you should resign, no exceptions. We don’t need luke warmness in our leadership, it’s bad enough with the gross atrocities the parishioners these days are committing, in the leadership it should not be tolerated. The point was not about cafeteria Catholics in the first place, it’s about non Catholics sitting in the pews, passing themselves off as Catholic when they clearly are not in line with church teachings. If they do not understand something, they have to accept what the church believes and take it on faith to do likewise, followed up hopefully with study to know the truths they do not understand but “must accept”.This silly statement gave me a chuckle.
If that were the case, every cafeteria catholic(including priests and bishops) would have to be excommunicated.
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eucharisteo
Guest
Lutheran,
Please listen to Fr. David’s advice. Print out your posts and hand them to him in person before or after mass. I’d suggest making an appointment with him regarding your marriage. You should do it for her and let him know the situation. I have a feeling that your wife would not be allowed to simply allow your son to receive FHC on the grounds that she is living in sin according to the Catholic Church and not living her Catholic faith. Mixing is not any faith. Most of my “so called Catholic family” are doing the same exact thing. Many Catholics are afraid to be straight shooters I’ve discovered over the years. Sad for them and those the evangelize. But you sound like your more Catholic than your wife.
Let her read John 6 and then St. Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Smyrnæans, Smyrna
particularlycChapter VII. Let us stand aloof from such heretics. I suggest reading the entire thing. She would in fact be outcast from the flock had she been discovered in the days shortly following Christ.
Please listen to Fr. David’s advice. Print out your posts and hand them to him in person before or after mass. I’d suggest making an appointment with him regarding your marriage. You should do it for her and let him know the situation. I have a feeling that your wife would not be allowed to simply allow your son to receive FHC on the grounds that she is living in sin according to the Catholic Church and not living her Catholic faith. Mixing is not any faith. Most of my “so called Catholic family” are doing the same exact thing. Many Catholics are afraid to be straight shooters I’ve discovered over the years. Sad for them and those the evangelize. But you sound like your more Catholic than your wife.
Let her read John 6 and then St. Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Smyrnæans, Smyrna
particularlycChapter VII. Let us stand aloof from such heretics. I suggest reading the entire thing. She would in fact be outcast from the flock had she been discovered in the days shortly following Christ.
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grandfather
Guest
Wild “what if” speculation is not helpful in this or any situation. False alarms get people excited about things that do not exist, but people do respond to them. In responding to false alarms there can be wrecks and injuries.
No matter what the children are taught about religion they could end up atheists, buddhists, or anything else. Either parent could change religion.
We can only deal with the immediate events before us. “Sufficient is the evil of the day”. Worryng about the countless things that might happen tomorrow is raising phantoms of worry and fear.
Good grief! Be careful your wife may change religions, leave you for a new boyfriend, get cancer and die, become bi-polar and hate you, so you better realize what terrible things could be coming and get prepared for it, just in case.
If I looked at life this way I would need psychiatric care and heavy medication.
How about trusting tomorrow to God who loves us.
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KindredSoul
Guest
First of all, I concede that my post was pointless (as it really wasn’t advice, and therefore was not necessary), and therefore I’d delete it now if I could, looking back on it. The part about her possibly leaving was indeed extreme and wild.
As would I. But this is a major straw man compared to what I actually said, aside from the one thing that I admit was too extreme. In effect, all I have said aside from the one extreme (in way more words and intensity than I probably needed) is “A Catholic woman who admits to herself what her Faith requires will probably try even harder to raise her child Catholic, even if her Protestant Husband disapproves, than a Cafeteria Catholic woman who is in denial about what being a Catholic means.” Is that not a logical assumption? I do not see how that is remotely similar to the wild and crazy fear-mongering you suggest I am employing. Nor do I see how that is even a “wild” scenario belonging to the ranks of cancer, hatred, changing religions, and Atheist children.
Incidentally, I do believe it’s the right thing to do to try to make the wife realize that she can’t have her Catholic Faith and her pick-and-choose mentality at the same time. In that endeavor, I support the OP. I would just ask him (and this is actually useful, so this post will have more discussion merit than my former post) to be understanding and not too antagonistic if she chooses, in light of that realization, to be true to her Faith and therefore tries harder to raise the child Catholic, including teaching the child the things the OP doesn’t want the child to be taught.
That would be why I offered my prayers.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Here’s a question. In the Jewish faith the faith is handed down through the mothers side of the family. So if the father were christian and the mother jewish then there kids are jewish. But in the catholic faith the faith is passed down through the father not the mother. So a question I’m curious about is as your the father and Lutheran, would the faith of your kids pass through you or through your wife? I only bring this up, not to confuse you but to perhaps help your position. Afterall, If the faith is through you then the kids are going to go through the Lutheran faith. Oh sure you could relent and have them raised Catholic but if the Catholic cannons support you then that can help you. Your wife really should speak with a priest I’d actually recommend one from each ie Luthran and Catholic, and you should too. That will let you both know what to expect. The Grandfather has a point though. No one knows what faith may resonate with a person over time. Take me for example. I grew up in the Disciples of Christ a non-denominational church. My family had always gone there and my twin brother still does. I however, stopped attending in my teen years i grew disatified with that church and Christianity in general. But look at me now at 36, I’m going through RCIA to be a Maronite Catholic. I started my journey to Catholism almost a year ago and in one month I’ll be baptized. So, if your wife is worried about your sons religion she should know there are no garantees. If its about ceremony more than faith she’ll have a rude wake up call.
I started my journey to Catholism almost a year ago and in one month I’ll be baptized. So, if your wife is worried about your sons religion she should know there are no garantees. If its about ceremony more than faith she’ll have a rude wake up call.
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momor
Guest
I’m a cradle Roman Catholic and I’ve never heard that before. A Maronite doctrine perhaps?
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JerrySeibert
Guest
Luther
Your wife needs to seriously decide which side of the fence she wants to be on. You have two opposing views. And you cannot have both , your Faith Lutheran and eat it to Catholic faith. So sad for your children if you have more than one. Conflicting teachings from one Church to the next dissade more from practicing ‘any’ faith much less ‘choosing’ just one.
Your wife cannot accept Communion in a Catholic Church then do so in a Lutheran Church or vice versa. Pick a team.
Your wife needs to seriously decide which side of the fence she wants to be on. You have two opposing views. And you cannot have both , your Faith Lutheran and eat it to Catholic faith. So sad for your children if you have more than one. Conflicting teachings from one Church to the next dissade more from practicing ‘any’ faith much less ‘choosing’ just one.
Your wife cannot accept Communion in a Catholic Church then do so in a Lutheran Church or vice versa. Pick a team.
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grandfather
Guest
If a Catholic of one rite marries a Catholic of another rite, the ecclesial authority is of the father’s rite. This is also true if a Catholic marries an Orthodox person. Say the husband was Orthodox. The wife remains Catholic, but the ecclesial authority over the family is the Orthodox bishop, if I recall.
None of this applies if a Catholic marries a person of a Christian denomination that does not have holy orders or apostolic succession. For a Catholic to be validly married to such a person and the Church to recognize the marriage certain conditions must be met. Those have not been met in the case of the Lutheran man writing in. One of those conditions would be that the non-Catholic person agree to raise the children Catholic. The Lutheran man in question said honestly that he never agreed to such a thing and never would.
The wife who was raised Catholic left the Church. She rejects the teachings of the Catholic faith and married a man of another faith, outside the Church, without informing Catholic authorities. She has no regard for Church law or teaching. She rejects it, but at the same time receives Communion in the Catholic Church. The Church says in her current condition she is not welcome to do this, but she does it anyway.
Two Lutherans could be validly married in the eyes of the Catholic Church in a Christian marriage, but this lady was raised Catholic, and now does not profess to believe what the Church believes about much of anything. She is receiving Communion in the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church and she does not believe what Lutherans believe either. She is trying to practice two different religions at the same time, but believes in neither one. She is very confused.
Her religion is based not on the teaching of any religion, but what she in her very confused state thinks makes sense to her personally. She really does not belong to any Church. She is on her own.
The sign of hope for her in the information we have from her husband, is that he loves her. By the grace of God he will continue to do that and all shall be well.
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puzzleannie
Guest
this is simply not true, the marital status of the parent is never a reason for denying sacraments to the child, nor has anyone here authority to label this lady or anyone else a heretic
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Lutheranteach
Guest
I’d say 2 and 3 are spot on, only I wouldn’t say she has an attachment to a parish but rather the overall rites and rituals bring her a lot of comfort, joy and serenity. I would say a great many of her beliefs are distinctly Catholic. If you asked her how many sacraments their are, she would quickly say seven. If you asked if the pope was infallible on certain things she would probably say yes. On he same hand if you asked her if communion in a Lutheran Church was valid, she would would say yes. If you asked if Lutheran clergy were valid. I think she would also say yes. If you asked her if someone should be excommunicated for having an abortion she would say the church should stay out of it and that it’s a stupid idea to excommunicate anyone for such a thing. Tell her the pill is not accepted and she’ll tell you the pope never had to stay up at night worrying about how to send a kid to college. She’s eclectic to say the least. She nearly converted right after our marriage, but decided there was too much she would miss. There are times, however, when I could swear she really wants me to say: “We’re Lutheran. End of discussion!” and take any decision off her plate so she could look at her family and not feel she let them down or whatever. I am the only one in the family (in at least six generations) that has ever married a protestant. Her uncle is a former priest (left to get married after 30 years and was married to a former nun in a Lutheran Church) Her aunt was a nun (she died a couple years ago) who had no use for me at all. Her dad thinks I’m great and he has his own issues with the Church. Her sisters are eclectic as well as one is the sponsor of our son who was baptized in a Lutheran Church. She took that role gladly and was fully aware it was a “violation of the rules” as she put it. Her sister’s husband’s sister is a lesbian and is having a “commitment ceremony” and she fully supports that —*as do I.
In looking at some of my previous postings, I’ve overstated my objections. Our son’s school can teach he is not to have communion outside the Catholic Church, that other clergy is not valid, etc. My wife can even teach those positions if she so desires. They should just expect me to refute those positions with equal vigor.
She asked me again what I thought and I said: “Honestly. I think it’s a bad idea, the repercussions of which I’m not even sure you can grasp.” I also told her to stop closeting me. She never tells people that I’m not Catholic. And if people ask her where I went to church before we met, she’ll say: He’s from the other part of the state so here and there, no parish you would know.
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kage_ar
Guest
You are telling us, in so many words, that your wife is not comfortable with truth.
I really think you guys need some marriage counseling. If she canot commit to God, how can she commit to a human being in marriage?
I really think you guys need some marriage counseling. If she canot commit to God, how can she commit to a human being in marriage?
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Lutheranteach
Guest
Oh, I would have to disagree with you there. She’s 100% committed to God. She’s just not 100% committed to the Catholic Church.
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