Love the sinner, hate the sin?

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“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part. This statement is used often as a preface to a long diatribe about sin.

What does it really mean to love the sinner? I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t give her a long lecture, He didn’t join in the crowd with their disappointing and unapproving looks, He didn’t go on about how wrong adultery is, rather He guarded her dignity and stood protecting her from everyone else. The onl!y thing Jesus said to her was, “Has anyone condemned you? Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

The same is true for when Jesus met the woman at the well. He asked her, “Will you get me some water?..Where is your husband?”

I notice that when Jesus addresses sinners He always asks them questions first. He looks inside their heart, gets them to reveal their heart, and then forgives them. Even when He heals the blind or the lame He says, “Your sins are forgiven!” He doesn’t say, wagging His finger, “You know that theft is wrong, you know that lust is wrong, don’t you realize how much you are hurting me, yourself, and others? etc. etc.”

What can we learn about how to “love the sinner” by Jesus’ example?
 
Those were really good examples you gave, Lady Love, not much need for comments.

I think that one of the finest examples is Jesus forgiving the people when He was on the cross. His example from the cross shows that one does not need to actually converse with people to forgive them. His example showed that we can forgive even in the worst conditions. His example showed that we can forgive even when people are not repenting from their sin. So an act of love toward a sinner begins with forgiveness itself, though love can be shown in many additional ways.
 
Today I was watching and sighing, as the fellow went on about how The Number One thing we must be doing as Catholics, to save ourselves from hell, is going around pointing out this is sinful and that is sinful. And of course promoting the reality of hell and how few will be saved from it. Fire and brimstone motivation, basically.

One thing I have noticed is that in the specific case of sins of the flesh, Jesus always forgave or even defended those who had these sins. His most frequent outbursts were against those who were, in fact, pointing out the sins of His friends. Sins of the flesh included. Not only did he fail to shun those with sins of the flesh, he had physical contact with them, such as letting them wash his feet, anoint him with perfume, etc.

Another reason I don’t hate the sin, is that hating anything – even an idea – binds me to it. My spirit doesn’t need those emotional connections. I’d rather observe the sin, and rather than letting it push my “must-hate-this” button. After 11 years of bipolar disorder, I’ve learned not to give my emotional controls to outsiders – including people who tell me that we are supposed to hate, as our Christian duty.

People may hate something, and we all have done it at some point except a few extreme cases maybe, but the best thing they can do is quit hating it. I don’t understand why we have to have sayings like this to excuse hatred, disguised as Good Christian Moral Responsibility. I believe that saying “love the sinner hate the sin,” is more destructive than most people realize; especially since it gives a person license to hate under the pretense that it is righteous because it is couple with love. That’s easy for a worldly mind to hide behind, as all it must do is simply claim that the hate that is coming through is for the sin, nothing against the sinner of course. (Road rage springs to mind as an example.)

So just like forgiving is about the person forgiving, and not the person being forgiven, the problem with hate is with the person doing the hating, regardless of what they claim is the target of the hate.

Alan
 
Lady_Love said:
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part. This statement is used often as a preface to a long diatribe about sin.

What does it really mean to love the sinner? I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t give her a long lecture, He didn’t join in the crowd with their disappointing and unapproving looks, He didn’t go on about how wrong adultery is, rather He guarded her dignity and stood protecting her from everyone else. The onl!y thing Jesus said to her was, “Has anyone condemned you? Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

The same is true for when Jesus met the woman at the well. He asked her, “Will you get me some water?..Where is your husband?”

I notice that when Jesus addresses sinners He always asks them questions first. He looks inside their heart, gets them to reveal their heart, and then forgives them. Even when He heals the blind or the lame He says, “Your sins are forgiven!” He doesn’t say, wagging His finger, “You know that theft is wrong, you know that lust is wrong, don’t you realize how much you are hurting me, yourself, and others? etc. etc.”

What can we learn about how to “love the sinner” by Jesus’ example?
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WOW! Thanks for pointing that out! You just totally opened my eyes. Jesus didn’t give up on these people (like I often do, though I know I shouldn’t), but He also didn’t have long debates with them either. Now I realize that all I can do is plant a seed of truth in someone’s heart and pray and let God do the rest. I mean, i knew that, but I don’t think I really BELIEVED it until now. WOW! God spoke to me through you!
 
Lady_Love said:
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part.
Click to expand...
This is very interesting for me to read, as I do not think I have EVER seen this passage used this way. Just about every time I have heard or read of this being brought up, it seems to me more of a reason to “excuse the sin”. If we are loving the sinner, how dare we imply that he might be, you know, sinning? It is weird for me to see an experience that runs so counter to mine.
 
Lady_Love said:
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part. This statement is used often as a preface to a long diatribe about sin.

What does it really mean to love the sinner? I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t give her a long lecture, He didn’t join in the crowd with their disappointing and unapproving looks, He didn’t go on about how wrong adultery is, rather He guarded her dignity and stood protecting her from everyone else. The onl!y thing Jesus said to her was, “Has anyone condemned you? Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

The same is true for when Jesus met the woman at the well. He asked her, “Will you get me some water?..Where is your husband?”

I notice that when Jesus addresses sinners He always asks them questions first. He looks inside their heart, gets them to reveal their heart, and then forgives them. Even when He heals the blind or the lame He says, “Your sins are forgiven!” He doesn’t say, wagging His finger, “You know that theft is wrong, you know that lust is wrong, don’t you realize how much you are hurting me, yourself, and others? etc. etc.”

What can we learn about how to “love the sinner” by Jesus’ example?
Click to expand...
With the woman at the well Jesus prophesied about her (miraculous testimony) He was arriving to do much teaching, for hours, and days. It is true he showed love, and compassion. That is often the only reason people listen to others. For the woman he saved from stoning. I’m pretty sure on the brink of death, it had just been driven home, that she had sinned. Of course he didn’t need to expound on that.

Jesus did confront, the Saduccess, Pharasees, and other leaders. He violently confronted the money changers in the Temple. He taught to be saved we must obey the 10 commandments. Jesus often taught the people, and it was not well received at times.
I think it’s important to take a balanced approach.

you do make an excellent point. People who feel loved, and valued, are more open to listening to God’s teachings.

It is true that when God heals the body he also heals the soul, sins are forgiven!
 
+JMJ+

As always, G.K. Chesterton has the answer to this, and the basic thing is, I think all of us are looking at “Love the sinner, hate the sin” wrongly, i.e. like a pagan:

Take another case: the complicated question of charity, which some highly uncharitable idealists seem to think quite easy. Charity is a paradox, like modesty and courage. Stated baldly, charity certainly means one of two things – pardoning unpardonable acts, or loving unlovable people. But if we ask ourselves (as we did in the case of pride) what a sensible pagan would feel about such a subject, we shall probably be beginning at the bottom of it. A sensible pagan would say that there were some people one could forgive, and some one couldn’t: a slave who stole wine could be laughed at; a slave who betrayed his benefactor could be killed, and cursed even after he was killed. In so far as the act was pardonable, the man was pardonable. That again is rational, and even refreshing; but it is a dilution. It leaves no place for a pure horror of injustice, such as that which is a great beauty in the innocent. And it leaves no place for a mere tenderness for men as men, such as is the whole fascination of the charitable. Christianity came in here as before. It came in startlingly with a sword, and clove one thing from another. It divided the crime from the criminal. The criminal we must forgive unto seventy times seven. The crime we must not forgive at all. It was not enough that slaves who stole wine inspired partly anger and partly kindness. We must be much more angry with theft than before, and yet much kinder to thieves than before. There was room for wrath and love to run wild. And the more I considered Christianity, the more I found that while it had established a rule and order, the chief aim of that order was to give room for good things to run wild.

Orthodoxy

Anyways, my way of looking at “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is this: I hate the sin, because it hurts most the sinner that I love.
 
I think the time when I finally started to get this was from my own experience when I was betrayed. At first, my reaction was very bad and I unloaded on the person and called him every name in the book and said some very terrible things about him personally. But then, after a time of great pain, I started to pray and Jesus showed me something. He showed me why I had to forgive him. It was like this: I thought about how every single thing I said about his betrayal, Jesus could say the same thing about me. One particular conversation I had with the person kept playing in my mind, and I kept thinking…that could be like a conversation between me and Jesus, with Him saying all those things about my betrayal of Him. I betray Jesus all the time, every time I sin. But Jesus doesn’t say any of those things to me. He keeps on loving me and he forgives me even before I accept his forgiveness.
 
Lady_Love said:
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part. This statement is used often as a preface to a long diatribe about sin.

What does it really mean to love the sinner? I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t give her a long lecture, He didn’t join in the crowd with their disappointing and unapproving looks, He didn’t go on about how wrong adultery is, rather He guarded her dignity and stood protecting her from everyone else. The onl!y thing Jesus said to her was, “Has anyone condemned you? Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

The same is true for when Jesus met the woman at the well. He asked her, “Will you get me some water?..Where is your husband?”

I notice that when Jesus addresses sinners He always asks them questions first. He looks inside their heart, gets them to reveal their heart, and then forgives them. Even when He heals the blind or the lame He says, “Your sins are forgiven!” He doesn’t say, wagging His finger, “You know that theft is wrong, you know that lust is wrong, don’t you realize how much you are hurting me, yourself, and others? etc. etc.”

What can we learn about how to “love the sinner” by Jesus’ example?
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Code: 
Not to condemn other people  for  their human weaknesses and to pray  that  they will go to Heaven.  Going to Heaven is what life is about.
Peace,
BP
 
Oren said:
He showed me why I had to forgive him. It was like this: I thought about how every single thing I said about his betrayal, Jesus could say the same thing about me. One particular conversation I had with the person kept playing in my mind, and I kept thinking…that could be like a conversation between me and Jesus, with Him saying all those things about my betrayal of Him. I betray Jesus all the time, every time I sin. But Jesus doesn’t say any of those things to me. He keeps on loving me and he forgives me even before I accept his forgiveness.
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Oren, I was taught the same thing! I saw that God allowed, in His Divine Wisdom, to bring someone into my life, who mirrored in his actions toward me, the very exact thing I was doing to God. I would be OUTRAGED at the indifference that this man had while he was hurting me, when God showed me that it was the exact kind of indifference I was showing toward Him (Jesus) for the pain I was causing Him. I was beside myself in loneliness, I was wasting away in longing, I was physically exhausted from heartbreak, I was filled with terror from the loss of relationship and the more I pointed the finger at this man and accused him, the heavier God pointed His. I literally felt the burden of my unforgiveness. God said, “forgive us as we forgive” and he was measuring out to me the unforgiveness I had toward that man. Every single argument I made was thrown right back in my face. It wasn’t until I showed unwarranted mercy to the man that God showed unwarranted mercy toward me. It wasn’t until I stopped “holding into account” this man’s sins that God stopped holding into account mine.

Mercy is given to the merciful. Dignity is given to those who protect another’s dignity. Compassion is shown to those who show compassion. “What you measure will be measured out to you.”

For those who “seek out” other people’s sins, so God will “seek out” theirs. To those who shame people for their sin, God will shame them. To those who shun, God will shun. To those who reject, God will reject. To those who are patient, God will be patient. To those who see past sin to the heart, so God will do to you.
 
Love what you wrote, very insightful.

I think what it comes down, is not to judge. Jesus is the way and he said clearly not to judge if we don’t want to be judged.

Another light ball moment i had while meditation on the rosary is that, Jesus did all the work and sacrifice for us by being letting others hurt him deeply and put him to death for our own salvation. What is easy for us, go through this crucifixion or forgive the one that offended us? Clearly the forgiveness is far easier to me then these intense suffering that Jesus went through. Not only didn’t he deserve any of these tortured, but he didn’t defend himself, prayed for them and even forgave them. So if Jesus is the way, the message is clear to me to let my pride or desire to be right or my ego, to simply melt away with Jesus love and find the courage to forgive and pray for the one that hurt me.

Thank you for sharing, blessings to you!
 
Lady_Love said:
Oren, I was taught the same thing! I saw that God allowed, in His Divine Wisdom, to bring someone into my life, who mirrored in his actions toward me, the very exact thing I was doing to God. I would be OUTRAGED at the indifference that this man had while he was hurting me, when God showed me that it was the exact kind of indifference I was showing toward Him (Jesus) for the pain I was causing Him. I was beside myself in loneliness, I was wasting away in longing, I was physically exhausted from heartbreak, I was filled with terror from the loss of relationship and the more I pointed the finger at this man and accused him, the heavier God pointed His. I literally felt the burden of my unforgiveness. God said, “forgive us as we forgive” and he was measuring out to me the unforgiveness I had toward that man. Every single argument I made was thrown right back in my face. It wasn’t until I showed unwarranted mercy to the man that God showed unwarranted mercy toward me. It wasn’t until I stopped “holding into account” this man’s sins that God stopped holding into account mine.

Mercy is given to the merciful. Dignity is given to those who protect another’s dignity. Compassion is shown to those who show compassion. “What you measure will be measured out to you.”

For those who “seek out” other people’s sins, so God will “seek out” theirs. To those who shame people for their sin, God will shame them. To those who shun, God will shun. To those who reject, God will reject. To those who are patient, God will be patient. To those who see past sin to the heart, so God will do to you.
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*Hi Lady Love,

I believe I understand what you are saying here and for the most part agree. It is very insightful. I just wanted to add or share a slightly different perspective on this. I hope you do not mind.

I often wonder if it is actually us who are condemning ourselves in our condemnation of others. Not God. If God always looks to the heart and always offers Mercy in spite of our brokenness then it would make more sense that we do not accept His Mercy and in doing so condemn ourselves and then in turn condemn others. To me if we shun others then we are actually shunning God and in that way it is us who condemn ourselves not God. It also would make more sense to me then why Jesus told the woman who was about to be stoned that He did not condemn her.
Another way of seeing it I guess would be through what a spiritual directer said to me once. We can not give what we do not have. If we do not accept God’s Mercy we can not give Mercy. The Mercy we give is actually God’s Mercy, not our own, so that would make more sense to me too that if we do not accept God’s forgiveness we will not be able to give forgiveness. To me He is forgiveness. The way I understand this is Jesus whole life, passion, and resurrection was about forgiving us or redeeming us. When we do not ask, open our hearts, and accept His forgiveness it is us who condemn ourselves. He never stops offering us His forgieness and Mercy. We just harden our hearts, or close our hearts, to accepting it.
When I have been wronged by someone, in some cases much like how you had been wronged, I found God to be saying look at al I have forgine you of,…can you not forgive them as I have forgiven you?
Does this makes sense or does it read soundly?
I know it is almost the same as what you are saying just slightly different but does it make sense? *
 
Oh my goodness! God showed me, through this thread that I had to forgive someone. I didn’t even realize that I hadn’t forgiven him until I read this. Thanks everyone for posting! I needed to read this. 👍👍👍
Boy, I feel relieved and more at peace now that I have forgiven. :):)🙂
 
Lady_Love said:
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I hear this statement used often but sometimes it seems that “Love the sinner” gets skimmed over very rapidly to the “hate the sin” part. This statement is used often as a preface to a long diatribe about sin.

What does it really mean to love the sinner? I think of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t give her a long lecture, He didn’t join in the crowd with their disappointing and unapproving looks, He didn’t go on about how wrong adultery is, rather He guarded her dignity and stood protecting her from everyone else. The onl!y thing Jesus said to her was, “Has anyone condemned you? Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

The same is true for when Jesus met the woman at the well. He asked her, “Will you get me some water?..Where is your husband?”

I notice that when Jesus addresses sinners He always asks them questions first. He looks inside their heart, gets them to reveal their heart, and then forgives them. Even when He heals the blind or the lame He says, “Your sins are forgiven!” He doesn’t say, wagging His finger, “You know that theft is wrong, you know that lust is wrong, don’t you realize how much you are hurting me, yourself, and others? etc. etc.”

What can we learn about how to “love the sinner” by Jesus’ example?
Click to expand...
Two different women and two different situations-handled differently.

To the one woman He says, " go and, sin no more". Sin no more, is the exhortation.

Now, the other woman He calls out about her husband or husbands. She is simply impressed and thinks He’s a prophet and goes back to tell other about this 'man that told me about myself".

The former is a good example of “love the sinner and hate the sin” with an exhortation, " go and sin no more".

The latter is not. There was amazement and wonder at the revelation of her faults but no staying around to confess or recieve forgiveness.
 
simple_soul said:
*Hi Lady Love,

I believe I understand what you are saying here and for the most part agree. It is very insightful. I just wanted to add or share a slightly different perspective on this. I hope you do not mind.

I often wonder if it is actually us who are condemning ourselves in our condemnation of others. Not God. If God always looks to the heart and always offers Mercy in spite of our brokenness then it would make more sense that we do not accept His Mercy and in doing so condemn ourselves and then in turn condemn others. To me if we shun others then we are actually shunning God and in that way it is us who condemn ourselves not God. It also would make more sense to me then why Jesus told the woman who was about to be stoned that He did not condemn her.
Another way of seeing it I guess would be through what a spiritual directer said to me once. We can not give what we do not have. If we do not accept God’s Mercy we can not give Mercy. The Mercy we give is actually God’s Mercy, not our own, so that would make more sense to me too that if we do not accept God’s forgiveness we will not be able to give forgiveness. To me He is forgiveness. The way I understand this is Jesus whole life, passion, and resurrection was about forgiving us or redeeming us. When we do not ask, open our hearts, and accept His forgiveness it is us who condemn ourselves. He never stops offering us His forgieness and Mercy. We just harden our hearts, or close our hearts, to accepting it.
When I have been wronged by someone, in some cases much like how you had been wronged, I found God to be saying look at al I have forgine you of,…can you not forgive them as I have forgiven you?
Does this makes sense or does it read soundly?
I know it is almost the same as what you are saying just slightly different but does it make sense? *
Click to expand...
It makes perfect sense! 👍
 
+JMJ+

Why do I keep on getting the “selfish” impression of “Love the sinner, hate the sin” here in this thread? That saying, in my mind, can only be understood in a selfless way.

When somebody does wrong to me, to use the “love the sinner, hate the sin” principle, I never even look at what he did to me, but rather forget myself, forget the harm he did to me, and focus on the harm he is doing to himself. That’s why I hate sin: never mind that it hurts the one sinned, since it harms (venial sin) or even outright kills (mortal sin) the sinner the most!

Hating causes you attachment? That’s like saying hating your beloved’s illness makes you attached to the illness. No, hate is dependent on who or what you love: you hate what hinders or harms your love. So if hating results in undue attachment, then you have to examine what or who you are loving. Most probably, you’re loving yourself too much.

Focus on the sinner, not on yourself nor on the slight against you. That’s when you will understand this saying.
 
To put a different spin on the “Love the sinner, hate the sin” statement…

One thing I do like about this statement is it makes a clear definition between the sinner and the sin. That the “sin” is separate from the sinner, that the sinner is not therefore defined by his/her sin, that the sin is not the identity of the person. According to this statement wouldn’t it be wrong to identify someone as “a thief” or “gay” or “adulterer” etc.?

…or maybe it is EXACTLY right to identify the sinner with the sin? Are we not identified by what/who we love? Are we not the children of our God and if our God is sin maybe we should be identified with the sin?

…or maybe what God wants is for us to find our identity in Him and not our sin?

What do you think? Can anyone offer me some clarity?
 
nuntym said:
+JMJ+

Why do I keep on getting the “selfish” impression of “Love the sinner, hate the sin” here in this thread? That saying, in my mind, can only be understood in a selfless way.

When somebody does wrong to me, to use the “love the sinner, hate the sin” principle, I never even look at what he did to me, but rather forget myself, forget the harm he did to me, and focus on the harm he is doing to himself. That’s why I hate sin: never mind that it hurts the one sinned, since it harms (venial sin) or even outright kills (mortal sin) the sinner the most!

Hating causes you attachment? That’s like saying hating your beloved’s illness makes you attached to the illness. No, hate is dependent on who or what you love: you hate what hinders or harms your love. So if hating results in undue attachment, then you have to examine what or who you are loving. Most probably, you’re loving yourself too much.

Focus on the sinner, not on yourself nor on the slight against you. That’s when you will understand this saying.
Click to expand...
*Hi nuntym,

I am not sure I am following what you are saying. Are you saying that when Jesus Christ forgives me,gives me mercy for my sins and does not condemn me for them that He is being selfish?

I am sure this is not what you are saying but I am getting really confused with what you seem to be saying. It is like you are trying to twist something out of something and I can not see what you are trying to twist out of or into what. Maybe if you could simplify what you are say a little I might understand better. *
 
+JMJ+
simple_soul said:
*Hi nuntym,

I am not sure I am following what you are saying. Are you saying that when Jesus Christ forgives me,gives me mercy for my sins and does not condemn me for them that He is being selfish?

I am sure this is not what you are saying but I am getting really confused with what you seem to be saying. It is like you are trying to twist something out of something and I can not see what you are trying to twist out of or into what. Maybe if you could simplify what you are say a little I might understand better. *
Click to expand...
What I am trying to say is that what I keep on reading in this thread comes from the viewpoint of being sinned upon instead of loving the sinner. That is what I mean by being “selfish”.

Let me put it this way. The attitude I keep getting here is: “I hate the sin because that sinner hurt me, but I will love the sinner anyway.” No; the attitude we should have is “I hate the sin because it is hurting the sinner, whom I love, more than me.”
 
*I was remembering this quote I had read the other day on facebook and I thought it would be appropriate for this thread. I believe this may be the best way to understand the “hate the sinner not the sin” quote so I thought I would share.

“Do not think about the sins of your brother,
but what in him is better than yourself.”

St. Tikhon of Zadonsk*
 
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