Love thy neighbor as thyself

[MickeyZ]

Don’t know if this belongs here but it’s my first day with this forum and, if it belongs elsewhere, you’ll let me know.
It’s getting more difficult for me to be a good Christian. Recent homilies suggest I’m not being a good person because of a couple issues. First let me introduce myself as a perfect human being. That means I have physical and mental deficiencies and I’m prone to make mistakes, fabricate excuses, get angry, act disrespectfully, and sometimes I’ve been apathetic of others’ dilemmas. I might have even lied or cheated a couple times. It’s pretty hard for me to love myself, considering all the faults. I do, however, respect that I’m capable of being better and, sometimes, I even try. Now I’m being told I must love those who have way more faults than I might even imagine. I’m told to look at things from their perspective. OK, let’s try Adolph Hitler. Well, maybe Joseph Stalin. Where do I begin, how do I begin to look at things from their perspective? How can I imagine loving a person responsible for the heinous crimes they committed? I’m insulted by the suggestion and disappointed that homilists are not better informed and informing. My God would not ask me to love Hitler or Stalin. My God wouldn’t ask me to forgive Hitler or Stalin because my God knows I can’t and, besides, It’s not in my realm of authority to forgive the crimes of other humans.
I was baptized over 72 years ago and the Church had succeeded in having me feel so guilty about so many “human” errors. I want to believe I studied and learned some things over all these years, especially the difference between right and wrong, and the difference between a deliberate, malicious crime and a simple mistake. There must be more important messages to send to the congregation to help us feel closer to the God who created us and all things known to us though we’ll never understand why Hitlers and Stalins were part of the mix.
I don’t try to think like or be like God because I’m only human. I wish the sermons stopped encouraging me to act and feel in a way God never expected me to.

Respectfully,
Michael A

 

[Della]

There’s no reason for you to feel you have to forgive Hitler or Stalin unless they did something to you. They certainly were the worst of tyrants, but since they never harmed you, you are not required to forgive them of anything.

Jesus never asked anyone to forgive Caesar or Herod, even though one tried to kill him when Jesus was an infant. He was talking about loving others as you would wish to be loved. This means wanting the best for them. What would have been best for Hitler or Stalin? What else besides give up their programs that destroyed so many lives. We could wish they that had done that, but they didn’t. When they died God judged them, not you or I. We can pretty much guess what happened to their souls, based on their lives, but since we are not God, we cannot say for certain.

All you or I are responsible for is our own actions, not those of others. God loves unconditionally, but he judges fairly, as well. He knows each person’s intentions and what they did or didn’t do. That is our concern–our intentions and what we do/don’t do. If some of our homilists lean way over with telling us to love others, they’re most likely not talking about those who have no contact in our lives, but those we deal with in our families and communities. Hitler and Stalin have gone to their reward. Let them go and enjoy the life God gave you.

 

[Joe_5859]

People use Hitler and Stalin when they are speaking as easy examples of people who did terrible, terrible things. It seems likely to me that the main point the priest was driving at is that we be willing to forgive and love those around us.

You don’t have to sit there trying to understand why Hitler did what he did in order to think he wasn’t really that bad of a guy. That’s likely not what your priest was going for.

If you have questions about what the priest said in his homily, I would encourage you to simply ask him afterwards. People use figures of speech and other types of “tricks” in public speaking in order to get their message across. So just ask him what the underlying message was and I am sure he will be happy to explain it to you.

 

[Beryllos]

It sounds like your pastor is trying the “shock treatment,” talking about empathizing with Hitler and Stalin, and forgiving them. I personally think he would do better keeping his homilies closer to home and everyday life. Oh well, you could perhaps try another Mass, or have a private word with him about your concerns.

Don’t worry too much about forgiving infamous people you’ve never personally met. Leave that up to God, and believe that he can love and forgive even them.

Mere mortals like us can begin with “baby steps,” loving people who are alive today, or whom we knew when they were alive, those who are closer to us (family, friends, co-workers, neighbors), and then those who are connected with us in some more distant way.

God Bless you.

 

[bcuster]

Don’t know if this belongs here but it’s my first day with this forum and, if it belongs elsewhere, you’ll let me know."

Welcome to the Forums.

“It’s getting more difficult for me to be a good Christian. Recent homilies suggest I’m not being a good person because of a couple issues. First let me introduce myself as a perfect human being. That means I have physical and mental deficiencies and I’m prone to make mistakes, fabricate excuses, get angry, act disrespectfully, and sometimes I’ve been apathetic of others’ dilemmas. I might have even lied or cheated a couple times. It’s pretty hard for me to love myself, considering all the faults. I do, however, respect that I’m capable of being better and, sometimes, I even try.”

This is true for all of us. I have difficulty loving myself, too, but I am convinced that God loves me. His love is all that matters. We keep trying–not until we get it right–but until we surrender our lives so completely to God that He can get it right through us.

“Now I’m being told I must love those who have way more faults than I might even imagine. I’m told to look at things from their perspective. OK, let’s try Adolph Hitler. Well, maybe Joseph Stalin. Where do I begin, how do I begin to look at things from their perspective? How can I imagine loving a person responsible for the heinous crimes they committed? I’m insulted by the suggestion and disappointed that homilists are not better informed and informing. My God would not ask me to love Hitler or Stalin. My God wouldn’t ask me to forgive Hitler or Stalin because my God knows I can’t and, besides, It’s not in my realm of authority to forgive the crimes of other humans.”

You are right, we have no authority to forgive crimes against others. Neither do we have the reason to take offence. That would mean that when I hurt my brother or sister, the whole world holds it against me. Hitler and Stalin hurt people. It is for those people (and they are many) to forgive. In human terms this is impossible, but God has the authority to forgive all sins. He knows that unforgiveness hurts us often more than the original harm. God gives us the grace to forgive.

I was baptized over 72 years ago and the Church had succeeded in having me feel so guilty about so many “human” errors. I want to believe I studied and learned some things over all these years, especially the difference between right and wrong, and the difference between a deliberate, malicious crime and a simple mistake.

*It is true that people in the Church have often focused on our sins to the exclusion of God’s mercy. The Church does not teach that we need to hold on to our guilt. Through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, Jesus has given us the means to let go of our guilt in a personal encounter.
*
There must be more important messages to send to the congregation to help us feel closer to the God who created us and all things known to us though we’ll never understand why Hitlers and Stalins were part of the mix.
I don’t try to think like or be like God because I’m only human. I wish the sermons stopped encouraging me to act and feel in a way God never expected me to."

I am very fortunate to have a pastor who is able to talk about sin in such a way that we are drawn into the forgiving embrace of God. Other pastors may need to work on this. It is hard to balance holding ourselves accountable for our behavior and immersing ourselves in God’s mercy. Our culture today seems to think that if we don’t call a sin a sin, we won’t have anymore guilt. That is like saying we don’t have a sliver in our finger when we do and expecting to be pain free and not infected. We do need to have our eyes wide open to our sinfulness and that of the world, while at the same time knowing that God is ready to shower us with his mercy. All we have to do is repent and accept God’s forgiveness.

Peace be with you!

 

[JRKH]

Don’t know if this belongs here but it’s my first day with this forum and, if it belongs elsewhere, you’ll let me know.

Welcome…

It’s getting more difficult for me to be a good Christian.

Well - nobody said it would be easy……Join the club my friend…We all struggle.

Recent homilies suggest I’m not being a good person because of a couple issues. First let me introduce myself as a perfect human being. That means I have physical and mental deficiencies and I’m prone to make mistakes, fabricate excuses, get angry, act disrespectfully, and sometimes I’ve been apathetic of others’ dilemmas. I might have even lied or cheated a couple times. It’s pretty hard for me to love myself, considering all the faults. I do, however, respect that I’m capable of being better and, sometimes, I even try.

Failure to properly love ones’ self is indeed a problem. This is the place to start. You say that “sometimes” you try to be a better person. “Sometimes” is not what we are called to as Christians. Rather we must be dedicated to becoming a better person…and to grow in Love and in Holiness. As this grows - the issues you present below will be easier.

Now I’m being told I must love those who have way more faults than I might even imagine. I’m told to look at things from their perspective. OK, let’s try Adolph Hitler. Well, maybe Joseph Stalin. Where do I begin, how do I begin to look at things from their perspective? How can I imagine loving a person responsible for the heinous crimes they committed?

Why start with the most gross examples and examples that are so far removed from your daily life and where you are at spiritually? Break it down my friend. Get things to a manageable level where you can get your head around it. Begin with your real live neighbors, family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers etc…Then work your way out from there.

I’m insulted by the suggestion and disappointed that homilists are not better informed and informing. My God would not ask me to love Hitler or Stalin. My God wouldn’t ask me to forgive Hitler or Stalin because my God knows I can’t and, besides, It’s not in my realm of authority to forgive the crimes of other humans.

I’m sorry but God DOES ask us to forgive…even our enemies. Jesus tells us that how we judge is how we will be judged. in fact, not only are we told to forgive our enemies but to love them. These things are in the Gospels…so yes - God DOES ask this of us.

But - again - I emphasize that you need to set aside the big monsters and instead work on dealing with the issues closer to home and your personal life.

I was baptized over 72 years ago and the Church had succeeded in having me feel so guilty about so many “human” errors. I want to believe I studied and learned some things over all these years, especially the difference between right and wrong, and the difference between a deliberate, malicious crime and a simple mistake. There must be more important messages to send to the congregation to help us feel closer to the God who created us and all things known to us though we’ll never understand why Hitlers and Stalins were part of the mix.
I don’t try to think like or be like God because I’m only human. I wish the sermons stopped encouraging me to act and feel in a way God never expected me to.

Respectfully,
Michael A
Michael…Our entire faith is built upon Love and Love does not hate.
Truly, I understand that there are people and things that we struggle with. I do too.
But we are called to more - we are called to perfection in Love (Mt 5:48)…
We are called to forgive others to the very best of our abilities.
And where we fail, we beg God to forgive our weakness…

We are to Love our neighbor as ourselves…I have found that trying to love my neighbor - the ones I meet every day - is challenge enough. Why go looking for complications.
Just love yourself as God wants you to, and love others, and treat others, as you wish to be treated.

God Bless you on your journey.

Peace
James

 

[NHInsider]

Hmm.

The whole reason for Jesus’ Incarnation is that we are not capable of pleasing God without the grace He gives us. So when faced with a challenge we cannot meet (Jesus said to His listeners “be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect” Mt 5:8) we are brought to our knees: “Lord have mercy on me, a sinner!” And it is there, when we admit our inability to achieve perfection, that we receive and can accept the gift of grace that reconciles us to Him.

This realization also prevents us from feeling prideful when we look at someone like Hitler (“Lord I thank Thee that I am not like that tax collector” Lk 18:11), but rather to be grateful for the grace we have received and to pray that others may also receive and accept this great gift.

Sally

 

[MickeyZ]

Please accept my sincerest gratitude for your contributions. I appreciate all your comments and need to add just a little. Della and Joe, I used Hitler and Stalin as the worst of the worst to magnify the difficulty in forgiving. They did hurt me by hurting my family and families of many of my friends. But I get it and respect your advise.
Beryllos, you’re cool and bcuster, I admire your wisdom.
Now JRKH (James), I used the word “sometimes” to emphasize my humanness with some levity. Thanks for reminding me I’m a failure as a Christian.
Sally (NHInsider), I appreciate your effort.
Thanks all and God bless,
Michael A

 

[Della]

Please accept my sincerest gratitude for your contributions. I appreciate all your comments and need to add just a little. Della and Joe, I used Hitler and Stalin as the worst of the worst to magnify the difficulty in forgiving. They did hurt me by hurting my family and families of many of my friends. But I get it and respect your advise.
Beryllos, you’re cool and bcuster, I admire your wisdom.
Now JRKH (James), I used the word “sometimes” to emphasize my humanness with some levity. Thanks for reminding me I’m a failure as a Christian.
Sally (NHInsider), I appreciate your effort.
Thanks all and God bless,
Michael A

By using extreme examples you were putting yourself into an unnecessary dilemma. If either of those men hurt any of your family and friends, then it is up to your family and friends to forgive, not you. We can’t take to ourselves offenses against others, not even family because it’s not ours to forgive but their responsibility. By doing so you are unnecessarily burdening yourself. So, don’t do it.

As someone nearly as old as you are, I can also say that I’m not a perfect Christian. I know of no one who is. Even the pope goes to confession, ya know? So, don’t despair. One of the great saints said while dying, “Thank God, I can never sin again.” We all fall into sin of some kind, and each of us has his own besetting sin(s) to deal with. You are in good company, my friend. Just trust in God, avail yourself of the sacrament, and intend to do what is right and good, and you will be fine.

 

[JRKH]

Please accept my sincerest gratitude for your contributions. I appreciate all your comments and need to add just a little. Della and Joe, I used Hitler and Stalin as the worst of the worst to magnify the difficulty in forgiving. They did hurt me by hurting my family and families of many of my friends. But I get it and respect your advise.
Beryllos, you’re cool and bcuster, I admire your wisdom.
Now JRKH (James), I used the word “sometimes” to emphasize my humanness with some levity. Thanks for reminding me I’m a failure as a Christian.
Sally (NHInsider), I appreciate your effort.
Thanks all and God bless,
Michael A

Michael…
On your reply in general and the bolded in particular. I can appreciate your using terms to “emphasize” a given point…but please remember that we are limited - we can only respond to what you write.

And as for being a failure as a Christian…I doubt that you are any more a failure than I am. The most important thing is to keep working at it, relying on God, and placing our trust in His goodness and mercy.

Peace
James

 

[COPLAND_3]

One thing when it comes to those who are evil is that its by the grace of God that its not me who is in the history books for doing horrible things. Every one of us are capable of anything, and we need to thank God for all the good that He has guided us in, and ask for His great mercy for those shortcomings we do, and for His help in times of darkness that we all experience.

Forgiveness can be the hardest thing to do, and its usually happens in us through a process that only comes by God’s help.

 

[SighGuy]

It can be hard to love others. But sometimes I think to myself… what a wonderful thing if Hitler turned his face to God and with an earnest heart repented? What if Stalin fell to his knees and said, “You are my God” and “I have sinned grievously”? These are the things I hope for in other people. No matter how rotten they are.

I think, of course, of Alessandro Serenelli. He murdered in a fit of passion the young girl he would one day go on to believe was his guardian, who guided his lost soul. After prison, he begged her mother’s forgiveness (which she granted him, as Maria, the girl, had forgiven him as she lay dying), attended Mass with her, and was of course present at the canonization of the girl he murdered. He became a Capuchin.

“I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!”

This, I think, is what is meant by loving your neighbors.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I absolutely love this song that is about forgiveness! youtube.com/watch?v=oIbCpy0CQEo

 

[OneSheep]

By using extreme examples you were putting yourself into an unnecessary dilemma. If either of those men hurt any of your family and friends, then it is up to your family and friends to forgive, not you. We can’t take to ourselves offenses against others, not even family because it’s not ours to forgive but their responsibility. By doing so you are unnecessarily burdening yourself. So, don’t do it.

As someone nearly as old as you are, I can also say that I’m not a perfect Christian. I know of no one who is. Even the pope goes to confession, ya know? So, don’t despair. One of the great saints said while dying, “Thank God, I can never sin again.” We all fall into sin of some kind, and each of us has his own besetting sin(s) to deal with. You are in good company, my friend. Just trust in God, avail yourself of the sacrament, and intend to do what is right and good, and you will be fine.

I agree with the intent of your post here, as well as other posts concerning the approach to “where do we start forgiving”. I think that it would probably be unhealthy to condemn ourselves for not forgiving those who we find it difficult to forgive.
It would be better to just pray to our Lord for the ability to forgive. And absolutely, Michael will “be fine”. I like your concern and consoling for Michael on the subject. God forgives us unconditionally, forgiving others is not a condition of God’s forgiveness, but this is a point that has to be clarified.

So, as forgiveness is concerned, I agree with you, we should start with people who have most directly affected us. But the gospel clearly states:

Mark 11:25 NIV
New International Version
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

It is almost a “catch 22”. We are called to love everyone. When we love someone, empathize with them, then our resentment is triggered by violence against the person. Even when we hear stories in history, we have a connection to victims. Who among us, for example, cannot empathize with the Jews in concentration camps? Harm done to them harmed me personally, because I empathize with their plight. I love those people. I held something against the Nazis, and at one point I chose to forgive. It was a bit of a process.

So, perhaps forgiving those who hurt our family and friends is not our “responsibility” as such. But the guiding factor is whether we hold anything against someone. If an angry parent goes out to the little league field and yells at my son Johnny, it is not just Johnny’s calling to forgive the parent. It is my calling also, to forgive. Jesus does not want us to hold onto the condemnation and resentment, He wants us to come to the table free of such burdens.

Forgiveness of those we resent is a call for our own physical and psychological health, if nothing else. A poll done awhile back found that 94% of Americans thought that forgiveness was important, but 85% needed outside help to do so. We have to support one another on this. I have posted several threads about forgiving the worst of our enemies, because we can indeed forgive even those who have done the greatest harm to fellow humans. It is a matter of a practicing prayer, and really seeking to understand the person whose actions we resent.

And yes, absolutely, we should not despair. We are all born with the human condition; we all sin.

 

[Della]

I hear ya, OneSheep, and I agree. It’s just that the OP is putting a heavy burden on himself over something he can do nothing about–the atrocities committed by tyrants. If we were to do that, we’d be in a constant state of agitation over all the ills done by anyone anywhere. It’s pointless.

If we can do something in justice to correct a wrong, we should do that–that’s how we help those we empathize with. Such as the man who helped the gals escape Ariel Castro’s horror house. We all feel terrible about what happened to them and wished he hadn’t done the things he did, but if we take on the burden of forgiving him I think we take on too much. Certainly their family and friends have an emotional connection, so forgiving him would be helpful to their emotional state of mind, but it’s not technically necessary that they do so only because the sin committed was not against them. I don’t mean they shouldn’t forgive him, only that they have no need to forgive in the formal sense of the word.

Even Our Lord detached himself from love of family in his ministry–not because he didn’t love them, but because doing his Father’s will came before all else and put his natural love for them in it proper perspective. This takes the grace of God to do, which is what our OP needs to understand. None of us with our human will alone is truly capable of forgiving what we see as unforgiveable. That’s why we need God’s help to do that and for that we need to totally surrender ourselves to his will–again impossible without his grace.

 

[MickeyZ]

Again, thanks folks for “hearing” me. Thank you Copland 3 for your thoughts and the song was a bonus. I liked your “what if” SighGuy. OneSheep, you are wise indeed and I appreciate your sharing.
I should’ve been more articulate with my original post and apologize. You guys still jumped in and I learned.
Sincerely,
Michael A

 

[OneSheep]

I hear ya, OneSheep, and I agree. It’s just that the OP is putting a heavy burden on himself over something he can do nothing about–the atrocities committed by tyrants. If we were to do that, we’d be in a constant state of agitation over all the ills done by anyone anywhere. It’s pointless.

Seems we may have a case of mutual appreciation. I am pushing the limit, because that is the challenge from Jesus, but you are directly addressing the needs expressed, because that is where the OP was coming from. You are much more attentive to people’s needs - the primary expressed need was reconciliation with God, I think.

We can indeed, though, do something more about the atrocities committed by tyrants. For example, when we encourage forgiveness of everyone, even the “tyrant” may think twice before seeking to destroy when he is blind to humanity.

If we can do something in justice to correct a wrong, we should do that–that’s how we help those we empathize with. Such as the man who helped the gals escape Ariel Castro’s horror house. We all feel terrible about what happened to them and wished he hadn’t done the things he did, but if we take on the burden of forgiving him I think we take on too much. Certainly their family and friends have an emotional connection, so forgiving him would be helpful to their emotional state of mind, but it’s not technically necessary that they do so only because the sin committed was not against them. I don’t mean they shouldn’t forgive him, only that they have no need to forgive in the formal sense of the word.

Hmmm. I love “technically necessary” because when you say it, I am picturing God, at a desk, wearing glasses, and scrolling the bureaucratic formula, like the criteria to get the E-ticket (or is it the H-ticket?)

I think that there is a time for anger, even vindictiveness (though not acted upon) when it is more realistic to postpone forgiveness. Why force it, if we are in control of our actions? God will forgive us our postponement, I think. On the other hand, it is eventually time to forgive, as we will know by our burden. Holding a grudge is enslavement to our nature.

I get what you are saying, generally speaking, but in my own case I have found that when I have even the slightest negative feeling toward someone, my own internal state of holiness or reconciliation is compromised. I work at it. God’s help is vital, and it is always there. Forgiveness is always possible.

Even Our Lord detached himself from love of family in his ministry–not because he didn’t love them, but because doing his Father’s will came before all else and put his natural love for them in it proper perspective. This takes the grace of God to do, which is what our OP needs to understand. None of us with our human will alone is truly capable of forgiving what we see as unforgiveable. That’s why we need God’s help to do that and for that we need to totally surrender ourselves to his will–again impossible without his grace.

Well put, I agree. Part of God’s help does come through people like you and me, though, so we do what we can to encourage forgiveness and, in doing so, divert violence. Imagine what would happen if Al Qaeda, for example, forgave “western oppressors”. I like to think big. But how do we make it happen? When we forgive first, unconditionally, we encourage a reciprocal behavior. Of course, I am not talking about acquittal.

As far as detachment from family, though, - and this is off the immediate topic - I think He was referring to the status we have from belonging to a particular family. The Jews of Jesus’ time were quite proud of their lineage and place in society that their lineage designated. In addition, it was (and still is) security in family that can also be a burden on our own freedom. In a nutshell love-yes, enslavement-no.

 

[MickeyZ]

Please don’t think I have nothing but problems. That’s not the case though I do have a problem with several references to it not being my responsibility to forgive those who have hurt others and not me. Maybe it’s different understandings or interpretations of the act of forgiving and I’m OK with that. But, if any human being is abused, imprisoned unjustly, or hurt in any way, I’m not OK with taking a “well, it wasn’t me that was hurt and, therefore, not for me to forgive”. It contradicts some of our basic beliefs. First, all humans are my brethren. I thought the Lord said something about whatever we do to or for the least of His brethren we have done to or for Him. I also have a problem forgiving a crime against a loved one with the expectation of the loved one being moved to do the same. I can imagine the victim getting angry with me and suggesting I would feel a whole lot differently if it happened to me. The loved one is, of course, my brethren. It could be easy for me to “turn the other cheek” if mine wasn’t slapped. That doesn’t seem compassionate, empathetic or nice to me. If I am to love my neighbor as myself, I will feel my neighbors hurt as if it were mine.
I’m probably making a much bigger deal of this whole thing than I should but if it stimulates some positive thought, I’m happy. Maybe I’m confused about the differences among my religious, spiritual, legal, moral and social responsibilities.
Respectfully,
Michael A

 

[JRKH]

Please don’t think I have nothing but problems. That’s not the case though I do have a problem with several references to it not being my responsibility to forgive those who have hurt others and not me. Maybe it’s different understandings or interpretations of the act of forgiving and I’m OK with that. But, if any human being is abused, imprisoned unjustly, or hurt in any way, I’m not OK with taking a “well, it wasn’t me that was hurt and, therefore, not for me to forgive”. It contradicts some of our basic beliefs. First, all humans are my brethren. I thought the Lord said something about whatever we do to or for the least of His brethren we have done to or for Him. I also have a problem forgiving a crime against a loved one with the expectation of the loved one being moved to do the same. I can imagine the victim getting angry with me and suggesting I would feel a whole lot differently if it happened to me. The loved one is, of course, my brethren. It could be easy for me to “turn the other cheek” if mine wasn’t slapped. That doesn’t seem compassionate, empathetic or nice to me. If I am to love my neighbor as myself, I will feel my neighbors hurt as if it were mine.
I’m probably making a much bigger deal of this whole thing than I should but if it stimulates some positive thought, I’m happy. Maybe I’m confused about the differences among my religious, spiritual, legal, moral and social responsibilities.
Respectfully,
Michael A

Michael,
You make some great points and insights here…And I don’t think that you are necessarily making it a bigger deal than it should be. We SHOULD - and that means ALL of us - need to look at these things because as you say it stimulates positive thought. It can also prick our conscience too which is also a good thing.

To me - the matter of forgiveness, in the large sense, is tied to Christian Love and is more of an attitude than it is some discrete obligation.
Jesus tells us that how we judge others is how we will be judged.
He also says that in order to be forgiven we should forgive.

Of course the things you mention above are all legitimate things to ponder over in prayer.

Peace
James

 

[OneSheep]

Please don’t think I have nothing but problems. That’s not the case though I do have a problem with several references to it not being my responsibility to forgive those who have hurt others and not me.

Welcome to the club.

When you use the word “responsible” I gather you are thinking that there are a particular set of rules to follow in order to be “acceptable” to the Father? I am seeing things at three levels, here, and Della is referring to the first, the level of God loving, forgiving, and accepting you. Della had it right. God does, and we are not to despair.

At the second level, Della and I are also referring to the importance of forgiving those that trespass us directly, people that we may feel especially compelled to “make pay” for what they have done to us. Forgiving those people is of great importance, and I think we can all be on the same page there.

At the third level, there is the “kingdom”, a call for a greater wholeness, or holiness. In order to bring the kingdom into the world, entire peoples must forgive entire peoples, liberals must forgive conservatives, Christians must forgive Muslims, etc. This is Jesus’ vision.

But even though I presented 3 levels, I think it all relates to the first level. With ordinary, natural conscience formation, we form a “divided self”, which guides our behaviors. Eventually, though, there comes a time to reconcile with those parts of ourselves that we resent. To forgive, for instance, our own God-given capacity to want to be in control.

Maybe it’s different understandings or interpretations of the act of forgiving and I’m OK with that. But, if any human being is abused, imprisoned unjustly, or hurt in any way, I’m not OK with taking a “well, it wasn’t me that was hurt and, therefore, not for me to forgive”. It contradicts some of our basic beliefs. First, all humans are my brethren. I thought the Lord said something about whatever we do to or for the least of His brethren we have done to or for Him.

I’m with you on this, definitely.

I also have a problem forgiving a crime against a loved one with the expectation of the loved one being moved to do the same. I can imagine the victim getting angry with me and suggesting I would feel a whole lot differently if it happened to me.

I’m with you on this also, in some instances. We can probably think of times where such encouragement would be appropriate, and when it would be inappropriate. People need time to heal, they need time to be ready to forgive. But all of us can think of instances where grudges are held for a lifetime. This is no way to have “the yoke easy, and the burden light.” It would also be hurtful to flaunt our forgiveness, as opposed to challenging others to forgive. We have had decades to stew over what happened under Stalin and Pinochet and Hitler, and it is time to challenge the world to forgive. It is for our own good. It is very personal, too. However, if a victim is hurt by my forgiving the person who hurt them, all I can do is beg the victim’s forgiveness. They have taken offense, and their call is to forgive me. You can probably see here, that some people choose to never forgive. If victims do not forgive their enemies, they will probably choose not to forgive the people that have forgiven their enemies. When we do not forgive, we project a God who does not forgive us either. It is enslavement to our capacity to hold a grudge, I think. What do you think?

The loved one is, of course, my brethren. It could be easy for me to “turn the other cheek” if mine wasn’t slapped. That doesn’t seem compassionate, empathetic or nice to me. If I am to love my neighbor as myself, I will feel my neighbors hurt as if it were mine.

The fact remains that all of us are better off always forgiving. The Lord’s prayer calls directly for us to forgive, and yes, some people have a personal rule that says this: “Do not forgive someone who has hurt me, that is up to me.” A person who violates this rule is subject to the ruleholder’s resentment, not by will, though, resentment is a triggered reaction. We react to others actions emotionally, we don’t think about it first. Resentment also brings blindness, as shown in the crowd at the foot of the cross.

Let’s say a widow has found out that I have forgiven Stalin for taking her husband many years ago. She has never forgiven Stalin, and I have violated her personal rulebook by forgiving Stalin. Here is my reaction:

“I understand your resentment toward my act of forgiveness. Please know that in no way does my forgiveness mean that I approve of what was done, and that we should have never held Stalin accountable. I would never had reason to forgive Stalin if I did not love you and care about the great harm he has done to you. But in so caring, I shared your grief, in a very minor way, and I had to come to terms, to reconcile, for my own good, my own harmony with God. Please forgive me, I did not intend to dismiss what has been done to you as unimportant, but only to let go of my own hatred.”

I’m probably making a much bigger deal of this whole thing than I should but if it stimulates some positive thought, I’m happy. Maybe I’m confused about the differences among my religious, spiritual, legal, moral and social responsibilities.
Respectfully,
Michael A

Imagine a world where forgiveness is the norm. This is a big deal, we are talking about creating the Kingdom. Thanks for starting this thread!