Love thy neighbor as thyself

[Della]

I agree with everything said here. What I’m trying to say, poorly I’m afraid, is that we need to learn detachment from such things. The grace to forgive is part of learning detachment.

Detachment is not the same thing as not caring. Just the opposite. We care, and care deeply because such crimes against humanity offend God and man. When we realize that we have no control over the actions of other adults, then we can let their wrongs be part of their problem instead of making their sickness a part of us–by holding onto bitterness.

We are so horrified and disgusted not because we are not capable of being another Hitler or Stalin, but because we are. We know, deep inside, that there but for the grace of God go I. We’ve all harbored resentments and imagined what we’d do to those we think wronged us. They just took it to the extreme, but we are all quite capable of becoming such monsters if we don’t turn our resentments over to God and let him judge.

St. Paul reminds us that the Lord has said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” When we refuse to acknowledge that the abominable things that others do aren’t special to them, but are a part of the human condition–that of a fallen nature then we can love them as God loves them–with agape love instead of human love. On our own we can’t do it. But by God’s grace, we can.

 

[ready]

We must love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and we must forgive everybody. Jesus has clearly taught us that if we do not forgive our neighbor, then our heavenly Father will not forgive us. Our forgiveness from God thus is conditional; it hinges on whether or not we forgive our neighbor, who could very well be an enemy. Forgiveness does not mean that we do not acknowledge or detest the crimes or wrongdoings of another; it means that we love the other person enough to will what is good for their souls, despite their crimes and wrongdoings. Willing good for another’s soul means willing his reform and conversion when they are a notorious sinner, and it involves praying and offering sacrifices for the person’s conversion/reform, like St. Therese did for the murderer Pranzini. It means looking beyond the sinner’s crimes and having pity on his wretched soul by praying for him and doing good for his soul, even if it means having him penalized (for his own good) and deposed. If someone you know is like Stalin or Hitler, loving him would mean doing everything in your power to get him to repent of and stop his crimes, it would mean having him judged as a criminal and deposed. If his conversion and repentance seems improbable, which it very well may be, one can at least detest his crimes and not his wretched soul by still willing his conversion and by not willing him to be damned in hell; willing him to be damned in hell would mean to hate his very soul, which would be a grave sin on one’s own part.

 

[MickeyZ]

Thank you, James. You’ve given me more to think about and I promise I will.
Your (name removed by moderator)ut, “ready”, is valuable and I appreciate it.
“Della” wrote, “What I’m trying to say, poorly I’m afraid, is that we need to learn detachment from such things. The grace to forgive is part of learning detachment.” I didn’t detect anything poorly stated here or in anything else you wrote and I thank you for your efforts.
Now, “OneSheep”, my little mind will need some time to absorb your profound thoughts. You delivered some ideas that deserve the best I can give. I think we all got some wonderful suggestions from your offerings and it wouldn’t be fair to attempt to reply quickly. Please bear with me. Your reaction to the widow of a Stalin victim was remarkable and I hope you share it with the world.
Again, thanks to all.
Sincerely,
Michael A

 

[ready]

Thanks, Michael!

 

[OneSheep]

I agree with everything said here. What I’m trying to say, poorly I’m afraid, is that we need to learn detachment from such things. The grace to forgive is part of learning detachment.

Detachment is not the same thing as not caring. Just the opposite. We care, and care deeply because such crimes against humanity offend God and man. When we realize that we have no control over the actions of other adults, then we can let their wrongs be part of their problem instead of making their sickness a part of us–by holding onto bitterness.

What a great way to express this aspect of forgiveness!

We are so horrified and disgusted not because we are not capable of being another Hitler or Stalin, but because we are. We know, deep inside, that there but for the grace of God go I. We’ve all harbored resentments and imagined what we’d do to those we think wronged us. They just took it to the extreme, but we are all quite capable of becoming such monsters…

This section of your writing reflects such humility, a humility no less than a gift from God. In my own prayer life, I had to come to the point of what I can best describe as “painful admissions”, where I, too, had to confess that I could truly do what people like H and S did. Yes, I can be that blind too. There is something both humbling and uniting about such admission. But painful too, no?

Would you say, then, that there is both good and bad in all of us?

…if we don’t turn our resentments over to God and let him judge.

St. Paul reminds us that the Lord has said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” When we refuse to acknowledge that the abominable things that others do aren’t special to them, but are a part of the human condition–that of a fallen nature then we can love them as God loves them–with agape love instead of human love. On our own we can’t do it. But by God’s grace, we can.

Well, we can try to turn it all over to God and let Him judge. For me, and there have been some studies on this to back this up, our judgment of others is one of those automatic-gut-reaction things. I am, therefore I judge. It takes a lot of mental discipline to push aside onto God all the judging. Jesus tells us not to judge one another, but He spent a lot more time on forgiveness. Sure, ideally it would be great to never condemn people, but actually such condemnation is a function of our own conscience, so it has its place in guiding our own behaviors. Putting it all together: when we judge, it is time to forgive. A priest once told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. The understanding is an essential part of forgiveness, I think.

Forgiveness happens when we have taken the time to understand and prayed for the person enough that we can say: “This person is just like me. I could have done the same in his shoes, with his blindness.” When the person has effected us very directly, though, it is also imperative that the situation is under control. For instance, a person who is being sued is going to have a real tough time forgiving until the situation is resolved. It is possible, but very hard. Is this your experience too Della? Often, in those cases, it involves making another very painful admission: that I, in even a very miniscule way, am partly to blame.

We must love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and we must forgive everybody. Jesus has clearly taught us that if we do not forgive our neighbor, then our heavenly Father will not forgive us. Our forgiveness from God thus is conditional; it hinges on whether or not we forgive our neighbor, who could very well be an enemy…

Loved your post, but did not include the rest here in order to save space. Without realizing it, I was always deeply troubled by the story of the master and the servants. In the verse, Jesus tells us to forgive seventy times seven times, and then tells us a story in which a master forgives his servant only once and says that it how the Father is going to treat us.

So one day I was sitting in a Catholic Bible study led by a Bible scholar (priest), and he explained the story this way (paraphrased): God always forgives, but if we do not forgive others, all others, we will never be capable of knowing a God who forgives us. It is true, God as we know God in our own relationship with Him is only going to be as forgiving as we are. If I do not forgive Hitler, for example, I cannot fathom a God who does so.

This same scholar told us that the Jesus’ contemporaries had very personal relationships with God. If they were happy, then God was smiling on them. If they were sad, then God was treating them badly. If they felt guilty, then God was holding them in contempt. Jesus knew, though, that when we forgive everyone, unconditionally, we will know that God does the same. Can we fathom God as less forgiving than we are? Not possible.

.
Now, “OneSheep”, my little mind will need some time to absorb your profound thoughts. You delivered some ideas that deserve the best I can give. I think we all got some wonderful suggestions from your offerings and it wouldn’t be fair to attempt to reply quickly. Please bear with me. Your reaction to the widow of a Stalin victim was remarkable and I hope you share it with the world.
Again, thanks to all.
Sincerely,
Michael A

Thank you. Also, I want to thank you for continuing this really great thread. And everyone is being so nice to each other! You have set a great tone.

 

[Della]

What a great way to express this aspect of forgiveness!

I cannot take any credit for the definition of detachment. It’s merely what I’ve gleaned from reading the great saints, such as Teresa of Avila, and several others. It’s one of those “hard” teachings that can be difficult for us to grasp. I believe we need to see everything from God’s perspective, not ours, in order to make it part of who we are.

This section of your writing reflects such humility, a humility no less than a gift from God. In my own prayer life, I had to come to the point of what I can best describe as “painful admissions”, where I, too, had to confess that I could truly do what people like H and S did. Yes, I can be that blind too. There is something both humbling and uniting about such admission. But painful too, no?

Would you say, then, that there is both good and bad in all of us?

We were created good, but lost much in the fall. Our intellect was darkened, our will weakened and our senses became disordered. It’s why we struggle between being good and doing wrong. This is simply basic Church teaching for which I can again take no credit.

Well, we can try to turn it all over to God and let Him judge. For me, and there have been some studies on this to back this up, our judgment of others is one of those automatic-gut-reaction things. I am, therefore I judge. It takes a lot of mental discipline to push aside onto God all the judging. Jesus tells us not to judge one another, but He spent a lot more time on forgiveness. Sure, ideally it would be great to never condemn people, but actually such condemnation is a function of our own conscience, so it has its place in guiding our own behaviors. Putting it all together: when we judge, it is time to forgive. A priest once told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. The understanding is an essential part of forgiveness, I think.

Forgiveness happens when we have taken the time to understand and prayed for the person enough that we can say: “This person is just like me. I could have done the same in his shoes, with his blindness.” When the person has effected us very directly, though, it is also imperative that the situation is under control. For instance, a person who is being sued is going to have a real tough time forgiving until the situation is resolved. It is possible, but very hard. Is this your experience too Della? Often, in those cases, it involves making another very painful admission: that I, in even a very miniscule way, am partly to blame.

I too believe that our gut reaction to gross sins, such as H and S committed ought to stir our consciences. If they don’t we need serious help. And it is much harder to forgive those we have to deal with than those who lived far from us in another time. G. K. Chesterton, whose writings helped me understand man’s true nature better than anyone else, wrote: “The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because generally they are the same people.” I love GKC’s wit. But it’s so true, isn’t it?

 

[clem456]

It’;s difficult to forgive someone you have anger or revulsion towards, but Christ calls us to move in that direction. It involves moving beyond feelings.

I like this definition of love, I think it’s St Thomas:
“To love is to will the good of the other, as other”
Their good, for their sake, not for anything I might gain.
That doesn’t say anything about “feeling the love”.
But I find that if I have good will towards another person, the feelings will follow.

God wills that all people come to know him. We should want that also. But I don’t think that God expects us to be having coffee with our worst enemies. Praying for the good of someone can be very powerful thing, and forgiveness can follow. In fact, forgiveness is already there, as God forgives, and we are simply trying to align our will to God’s.

 

[MickeyZ]

Wow! I never expected such interest in this topic and I’m amazed with the intelligence you guys demonstrate. Talk about humbling. I almost forgot what I was writing about because I was so enjoying the education I was getting. Do I agree completely with everything offered? Maybe not but it’s forced me to push myself to a new level to fully understand. How can I not appreciate, respect and in some cases, admire the opinions and suggestions offered here? OneSheep noted “everyone is being so nice to each other”. I think this could be a product of neighborly love and, in a sense, forgiveness.
We’re blessed to have this opportunity and wise to use it.
Thanks so much for all your efforts.
Sincerely,
Michael A

 

[ready]

Loved your post, but did not include the rest here in order to save space. Without realizing it, I was always deeply troubled by the story of the master and the servants. In the verse, Jesus tells us to forgive seventy times seven times, and then tells us a story in which a master forgives his servant only once and says that it how the Father is going to treat us.

So one day I was sitting in a Catholic Bible study led by a Bible scholar (priest), and he explained the story this way (paraphrased): God always forgives, but if we do not forgive others, all others, we will never be capable of knowing a God who forgives us. It is true, God as we know God in our own relationship with Him is only going to be as forgiving as we are. If I do not forgive Hitler, for example, I cannot fathom a God who does so.

This same scholar told us that the Jesus’ contemporaries had very personal relationships with God. If they were happy, then God was smiling on them. If they were sad, then God was treating them badly. If they felt guilty, then God was holding them in contempt. Jesus knew, though, that when we forgive everyone, unconditionally, we will know that God does the same. Can we fathom God as less forgiving than we are? Not possible.

I enjoyed reading this. Thanks for sharing!