loved one in hell

[thenobes]

There is no suffering in Heaven.

Per rev 21:4, any inclination of the saved in Heaven to sorrow for those in Hell will be would be met with Jesus’s response to enlighten us of the true nature of their situation, and that would satisfy us.

peace,
steve

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think this is something that we simply can’t understand in this life. I fully believe that in Heaven there is only perfect happiness, even with the loved ones in hell, but I can’t really understand it at this point. There are some things that we need to accept and take God’s word for it, and this is one of them. It’s a mystery.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

I thought God was omnipresent. If there are places where he doesn’t exist then he’s not omnipresent.

Why couldn’t an all powerful God make a nice place for people who don’t want to be a part of his religion to go.

As far as I understand, He is as absent as possible while holding it in existence.

If someone totally rejects God, they reject the source of happiness. There is no other true source of happiness than himself. He would still be forcing himself upon them if he made a place for the damned to be happy. It’s like saying you’re thirsty, but refuse to ingest any liquid of any kind and then wondering why your throat is parched.

Another example:
This is like asking why can’t we have schools that teach 1+1=5 so people who don’t want to follow the laws of math can get an education in it.

And people can still get home so long as they’re following after God as far as they know him. Like someone who has no idea he exists, but seeks truth and goodness, which God is. it’s just extremely incomplete and much more dicey.

 

[steve_b]

If those consequences involve eternal torture for finite crimes then yes.

permanent seperation from God for all eternity, is a possibility, but the important point here is, people make that choice. God eternalizes their choice.
S:

Sure, why not?

Because the one who established both, made it clear what happens in the next life.
S:

One of the things that make me who I am is my empathy towards other people. I don’t want to know that anyone is suffering, especially people who I am close to. If I were in heaven enjoying eternal bliss with an all powerful being and at the same time was comfortable with the idea that some people would be suffering in the worst way for eternity, it wouldn’t be me anymore. It might look like me, but it would just be some kind of empty unfeeling husk.

temporal example

If you take everything you own, your entire net worth, convert it to a stack of poker chips, and go to Las Vegas to gamble, and after a day of gambling, you lose it all, would you say to sum up the day, that wasn’t you who did that It just looked like you, an empty unfeeling husk? Would that convince the casino to return all your money to you? What if you have a wife and children who are ALSO now effected by that action, would THAT convince the casino to return your money to you? Why can’t you just wish that act to go away like it’s all a dream? Why does one have to face the consequences of our actions? What if that example is what you see someone else do, can you wish for a better outcome for THEM than the one they just caused for themself? What would YOU do for them to make their life better now?

supernatural example

Some people do that same thing to their immortal soul. And they don’t, or won’t take advantage of the remedy Our Lord gave on this side of eternity to fix the potential of a supernatural trainwreck on the otherside of this life. We have free will.

 

[Sparkythedog]

permanent seperation from God for all eternity, is a possibility, but the important point here is, people make that choice. God eternalizes their choice.

So God isn’t omnipresent?

Because the one who established both, made it clear what happens in the next life.

How does this explain how heaven would not be heaven if everyone was there?

temporal example

If you take everything you own, your entire net worth, convert it to a stack of poker chips, and go to Las Vegas to gamble, and after a day of gambling, you lose it all, would you say to sum up the day, that wasn’t you who did that It just looked like you, an empty unfeeling husk? Would that convince the casino to return all your money to you? What if you have a wife and children who are ALSO now effected by that action, would THAT convince the casino to return your money to you? Why can’t you just wish that act to go away like it’s all a dream? Why does one have to face the consequences of our actions? What if that example is what you see someone else do, can you wish for a better outcome for THEM than the one they just caused for themself? What would YOU do for them to make their life better now?

This example doesn’t make any sense. I’m not my possessions. What makes me who I am is my personality, my empathy, the way I interact with other people. If those things change I wouldn’t be the same person any more. Take away my empathy towards others and I would be a psychopath, someone who doesn’t care about the suffering of others. If I behaved in that way, people who know me would say that I had fundamentally changed.

supernatural example

Some people do that same thing to their immortal soul. And they don’t, or won’t take advantage of the remedy Our Lord gave on this side of eternity to fix the potential of a supernatural trainwreck on the otherside of this life. We have free will.

What does supernatural mean?

 

[Sparkythedog]

As far as I understand, He is as absent as possible while holding it in existence.

So he’s not really omnipresent. He’s more kinda-present-sometimes.

If someone totally rejects God, they reject the source of happiness. There is no other true source of happiness than himself. He would still be forcing himself upon them if he made a place for the damned to be happy. It’s like saying you’re thirsty, but refuse to ingest any liquid of any kind and then wondering why your throat is parched.

Let’s take me for example. I completely reject your ideas about God and I’m perfectly happy with this life. Why can’t your all powerful God just make an afterlife that is like this life. I’ll live there, you guys can all go to Catholic heaven, and everyone’s good. No torture necessary.

Can your God make an eternal afterlife just like this life? Or is that too much for him?

Another example:
This is like asking why can’t we have schools that teach 1+1=5 so people who don’t want to follow the laws of math can get an education in it.

I would think an all powerful God could make 1+1=hamburger if he wanted to. Again why can’t he just make an afterlife like this life?

And people can still get home so long as they’re following after God as far as they know him. Like someone who has no idea he exists, but seeks truth and goodness, which God is. it’s just extremely incomplete and much more dicey.

He doesn’t sound very good. Anything that allows eternal torture when it could easily stop it, sounds horrible to me. But…who am I to judge?

 

[truetofaith]

So he’s not really omnipresent. He’s more kinda-present-sometimes.

Let’s take me for example. I completely reject your ideas about God and I’m perfectly happy with this life. Why can’t your all powerful God just make an afterlife that is like this life. I’ll live there, you guys can all go to Catholic heaven, and everyone’s good. No torture necessary.

Can your God make an eternal afterlife just like this life? Or is that too much for him?

I would think an all powerful God could make 1+1=hamburger if he wanted to. Again why can’t he just make an afterlife like this life?

He doesn’t sound very good. Anything that allows eternal torture when it could easily stop it, sounds horrible to me. But…who am I to judge?

Hey Sparky…you not only want to start your own religion…you want to make your own god…who does things by your rules.

 

[Sparkythedog]

Hey Sparky…you not only want to start your own religion…you want to make your own god…who does things by your rules.

My ways do seem better, though.

You didn’t answer any of my objections. Do you concede that I have a point?

 

[truetofaith]

My ways do seem better, though.

You didn’t answer any of my objections. Do you concede that I have a point?

NO ! How can your ways be better than the ways of an All-knowing, All- intelligent, Creator- God?

His Heaven is perfect…but for those who reject Him or murder, steal, lie etc. ( in short, break the 10 Commandments )…there is eternal hell fire which we are warned about!

 

[Sparkythedog]

NO ! How can your ways be better than the ways of an All-knowing, All- intelligent, Creator- God?

My ways are better because they don’t involve eternal torture.

His Heaven is perfect…but for those who reject Him or murder, steal, lie etc. ( in short, break the 10 Commandments )…there is eternal hell fire which we are warned about!

Why eternal torment for finite crimes? Why does an all powerful being need to make threats?

Why not, instead of Hell, set up some kind of celestial rehabilitation center to get those people who commit crimes back on the right track? I’d assume the center would have a 100% success rate seeing as how it’s run by a perfect being.

 

[truetofaith]

My ways are better because they don’t involve eternal torture.

Why eternal torment for finite crimes? Why does an all powerful being need to make threats?

Why not, instead of Hell, set up some kind of celestial rehabilitation center to get those people who commit crimes back on the right track? I’d assume the center would have a 100% success rate seeing as how it’s run by a perfect being.

Rehab. Center You have a whole life time to get your act together!

You better tell God about your ‘improvements’ rather than CAF…we can’t change the program…only He can. Maybe, die again?

 

[Shaolen]

So he’s not really omnipresent. He’s more kinda-present-sometimes.

Let’s take me for example. I completely reject your ideas about God and I’m perfectly happy with this life. Why can’t your all powerful God just make an afterlife that is like this life. I’ll live there, you guys can all go to Catholic heaven, and everyone’s good. No torture necessary.

Can your God make an eternal afterlife just like this life? Or is that too much for him?

I would think an all powerful God could make 1+1=hamburger if he wanted to. Again why can’t he just make an afterlife like this life?

He doesn’t sound very good. Anything that allows eternal torture when it could easily stop it, sounds horrible to me. But…who am I to judge?

Someone earlier made a good point that the people in hell would reject God even if you gave then Him on a silver platter. Hell isn’t so much the torture as in being burned in fire or poked with pitch forks but its the separation from God. The people in Hell will willingly choose Hell, willingly choose to be separate from God either word or actions. God allowed free will and created beings chose Hell. At least that’s how I see it

 

[steve_b]

So God isn’t omnipresent?

How does this explain how heaven would not be heaven if everyone was there?

• God knowing in advance how the story ends, and the choices people will make, doesn’t mean the story shouldn’t happen in the first place. Our choices really are choices we make, and they have consequences both good and bad.
• This world is NOT heaven. If heaven was like earth, full of disorder, then it wouldn’t be heaven, … by definition.

S:

This example doesn’t make any sense.

I’m not my possessions.

What makes me who I am is my personality, my empathy, the way I interact with other people. If those things change I wouldn’t be the same person any more. Take away my empathy towards others and I would be a psychopath, someone who doesn’t care about the suffering of others. If I behaved in that way, people who know me would say that I had fundamentally changed.

I added to my example, a reverse possibility. That is, you seeing another person making a trainwreck out of their life. You didn’t answer the question about that part of the example. What would you do for that person given the example I gave? Maybe it’s a complete stranger or maybe it’s a loved one

Since the thread is about a loved one in hell, the real question is, how does one avoid eternity in hell in the first place.
S:

What does supernatural mean?

Natural Law

Supernatural Order

 

[Sparkythedog]

life. You didn’t answer the question about that part of the example. What would you do for that person given the example I gave? Maybe it’s a complete stranger or maybe it’s a loved one

Since the thread is about a loved one in hell, the real question is, how does one avoid eternity in hell in the first place.

I’m not sure you really understand my point here. Or else I don’t understand how yours relates to mine. I’ll restate mine a bit to make it clearer.

Image that my wife and I are both Catholics and I love my wife very much.

Now, let’s say that she, with full knowledge of Catholic teachings, decides to do something that is both gravely sinful and illegal. She is caught, convicted and goes to prison for life and I am left home alone. During her life she does not repent and when we both die she goes to Hell and I go to Heaven.

When I am at home and my wife is in prison, I miss her. It tears me up that we are separated. Although I know she has done something wrong and I understand why she is in prison, it pains me to see her in this situation. My life is in shambles and I am an emotional wreck because I care about my wife and her well being. I’m an empathic person.

Now, according to some on this forum, when I am in Heaven and she is tormented in Hell, I either won’t think of my wife or her torment won’t bother me at all. So in Heaven, according to some, I won’t have the same feelings of empathy anymore. I’m a Catholic so I understand why she is in Hell. But I won’t care about her feelings or her pain. I won’t mind that her suffering is endless. I know longer have empathy.

This is what I mean when I say that, in Heaven, I am an unfeeling husk of my former self. My empathy was something that was a major part of me. It was who I was. I am someone else now because I don’t care.

 

[dmftx]

I think this concerns me more now than it will at my time of death. I get emotional just thinking about the poor souls in Pugatory because I can only imagine the loss and pain they feel (please pray for them daily). I have a child who passed recently and this bothered me for awhile because we never really know. Thsnkfully, I feel a peace for her and I am absolutely sure that God knew her heart and soul.

Of course we want our loved ones to be with us in heaven! We are human, with human doubts and worries, God knows that.

To me, if someone is bad enough to go to hell, and I think our merciful God will give us all the graces possible to avoid hell, then there isn’t anything I can do for them at that time. However, this is why we are all called to evangelize, to do our best to help others know Him. I personally fear that this will be a large part of our own judgement and where I would feel blame and shame for not having done enough.

We know that we will understand everything when we meet with the Lord so pondering this now is of no value when we can spend our time helping others get to heaven (including our brothers and sisters in Purgatory) and avoid the misery of worrying about the unknown.

 

[Goya]

**Luke 14

“If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."**

Excellent use of Scripture.

My ways do seem better, though.

Only if ‘feel good’ was any kind of standard of justice.

You didn’t answer any of my objections. Do you concede that I have a point?

However, I do concede that you have made a fantastic point, and done so very effectively–especially with your last post (wife/prison). Very challenging, very expressive of a natural tension that cuts to the core of Christianity. Christ’s 2 fold commandment–to love God with all our mind, heart, soul and being–and to love our neighbor as ourselves (for our love of God)–seems to turn in itself–or at least create a natural tension, if not a conflict of interest–when love for not just our “neighbor”, but our most beloved of “neighbors”–our spouses/children/parents/siblings, as the case may be-- conflicts or interferes with our love of God.

This strikes me as the ultimate test of faith–the ultimate paradox. How can be observe both commandments, when the former requires that we breach the latter?

I don’t see it as easy, as many others on here do; I get what your saying, and totally appreciate the conflict (which is of course, the point of the thread).

Speaking of paradoxes…your riddle about God being omnipresent…but not in Hell–the solution to your ‘paradox’ is that Hell is not a “place”–it’s a state of being. That’s why God can be everywhere…but not in “hell”–which, by definition, is a state of being separated from, God–a state of being resulting from the ‘sinner’ turning his back on, or away from, God. Hence God can be right ‘there’, in your face…but you reject him…and find yourself in a miserable state of being (i.e.-“hell”).

 

[St_Redemption]

A friend of mine posted this question

“Since its Sunday and with people going to church or for those who believe in heaven and hell. Would you be happy in heaven if a loved was in hell? Would it still be heaven then or hell for you?”

How would a catholic answer this question? I’ve heard answers in the past on catholic answers. Something to the effect of in heaven we will he in such a joyous state that it wont bother us?

Your joy in Heaven is not dependant upon anybody except God. Once you get to Heaven you will understand the situation and see and know that it is right. And yes, you will be happy. Its a tough doctorine that we probably cannot fully grasp and understand until we are in Gods presence.

 

[St_Redemption]

My ways are better because they don’t involve eternal torture.

Why eternal torment for finite crimes? Why does an all powerful being need to make threats?

Why not, instead of Hell, set up some kind of celestial rehabilitation center to get those people who commit crimes back on the right track? I’d assume the center would have a 100% success rate seeing as how it’s run by a perfect being.

Many great theists believe that Hell isn’t necessarily “torture.” But it is sadness as you have choosen to remove yourself from the only source of happiness in the universe. Also, we Catholics believe in a thing called purgatory. “Rehab”

 

[BlossomingFaith]

I’m not sure you really understand my point here. Or else I don’t understand how yours relates to mine. I’ll restate mine a bit to make it clearer.

Image that my wife and I are both Catholics and I love my wife very much.

Now, let’s say that she, with full knowledge of Catholic teachings, decides to do something that is both gravely sinful and illegal. She is caught, convicted and goes to prison for life and I am left home alone. During her life she does not repent and when we both die she goes to Hell and I go to Heaven.

When I am at home and my wife is in prison, I miss her. It tears me up that we are separated. Although I know she has done something wrong and I understand why she is in prison, it pains me to see her in this situation. My life is in shambles and I am an emotional wreck because I care about my wife and her well being. I’m an empathic person.

Now, according to some on this forum, when I am in Heaven and she is tormented in Hell, I either won’t think of my wife or her torment won’t bother me at all. So in Heaven, according to some, I won’t have the same feelings of empathy anymore. I’m a Catholic so I understand why she is in Hell. But I won’t care about her feelings or her pain. I won’t mind that her suffering is endless. I know longer have empathy.

This is what I mean when I say that, in Heaven, I am an unfeeling husk of my former self. My empathy was something that was a major part of me. It was who I was. I am someone else now because I don’t care.

I think this is a great point. I have no real answers, just hope and faith in God’s mercy. If God is love, I don’t see how we will lose our love for our loved ones. I imagine our love would grow. Jesus came to earth to live and die for us. This was not in vain- it was so we would avoid Hell - so I have to conclude that the majority of people do not go to Hell. I believe God wants us in Heaven and has a plan better than I could imagine. There is no way for us to know everything now, but I do not believe we will be an unfeeling husk. One difference between Catholicism and some of thr other religions I learned about is that Catholics believe in a personal God, not a return to impersonal Nirvana. That makes purgatory make sense, too- we have to be purged of the not so good stuff and keep the good- not wiped clean and all made to be the same. Look at the Saints, they are still associated with their passions from their earthly lives.

 

[steve_b]

I’m not sure you really understand my point here. Or else I don’t understand how yours relates to mine. I’ll restate mine a bit to make it clearer.

Image that my wife and I are both Catholics and I love my wife very much.

Now, let’s say that she, with full knowledge of Catholic teachings, decides to do something that is both gravely sinful and illegal. She is caught, convicted and goes to prison for life and I am left home alone. During her life she does not repent and when we both die she goes to Hell and I go to Heaven.

When I am at home and my wife is in prison, I miss her. It tears me up that we are separated. Although I know she has done something wrong and I understand why she is in prison, it pains me to see her in this situation. My life is in shambles and I am an emotional wreck because I care about my wife and her well being. I’m an empathic person.

Now, according to some on this forum, when I am in Heaven and she is tormented in Hell, I either won’t think of my wife or her torment won’t bother me at all. So in Heaven, according to some, I won’t have the same feelings of empathy anymore. I’m a Catholic so I understand why she is in Hell. But I won’t care about her feelings or her pain. I won’t mind that her suffering is endless. I know longer have empathy.

This is what I mean when I say that, in Heaven, I am an unfeeling husk of my former self. My empathy was something that was a major part of me. It was who I was. I am someone else now because I don’t care.

Okay, I understand what you’re saying.

In your example,

your wife dies not being sorry for what she did. That’s a choice she makes and if one dies in that state, that disposition is fixed. They carry that unforgiveness on into eternity. That’s why the only unforgivable sin is not being sorry.

To your point, you don’t want a person’s unrepentance at death to go against them for eternity.

I would just say, your argument is with the one who made the rules.

Just thinking outloud, I think all our problems we have today in the world can be laid at the feet of people having no fear of God, or hell.

And I freely admit, that kind of disposition in people, makes no sense to me. Especially since divine revelation gives clear warnings and consequences for NOT fearing God or hell.

The one who will judge EVERYONE tells the following story Luke 16:19-31