Loving Bin Laden

[Brendan]

To desire the death of an enemy is not found in the NT. Actually, what is shown is the opposite. The early christians were martyred not only by the Jews but also by the Romans. They prayed for those who persecuted them and never laid an arm against those who were torturing them to death.

No different than Jesus…

Except that nothing I said referred to anything other than Bin Laden gaining eternal life.

There can be no higher Good that we can wish for a person, and therefore no deeper love.

 

[Shoshana]

Except that nothing I said referred to anything other than Bin Laden gaining eternal life.

There can be no higher Good that we can wish for a person, and therefore no deeper love.

You are right. Sorry about that…I was responding to the other poster… Forgive me…

 

[Wedgewood]

In all that has been going on with the war, I have forgotten why does Bin Laden hate us so?

 

[MelanieAnne]

In all that has been going on with the war, I have forgotten why does Bin Laden hate us so?

Supposedly our presence in the Middle East, particularly when we had people in Saudi Arabia, which is the site of their holy places, is offensive to Islam.

But that’s pretty obviously a pretext.

 

[Nino]

I could never forgive…what ever that means…a man who molests any of my loved ones…either by thought,word or deed! It was Jesus himself who said …re: Judas “it were better he were never born!”…At the Nurenberg trials some 24 members of the left wing National Socialist workers party of Germany were on trail…and some 12 were executed…the others served some jail time…Albert Spear,Hitlers right hand man and the one who invented the poison gas,rceived only some 10 years jail time and then released! None of the Communist butchers who murdered some 100 million last century ever had a trial…so…I guess all are forgiven…cept maybe those who use certain names or slogans not PC…

 

[Valke2]

Speer served time in jail until 1966. I don’t think he invented the gas, although he was in charge of Germany’s armaments. His crime that he was sentenced for was mostly based on his use of slave labor for arms production. But I understand and agree with the sentiment of your post.

 

[Shoshana]

If Corrie ten Boom could forgive her prison guard for torturing her and killing her friends while she was in a concentration camp that Hitler invented, I think we should look to her for the forgiveness that is needed in extreme cases.

 

[seekerz]

Two things I think are worth pondering as well:

1. First of all, love itself is often sorely misunderstood. For example, it’s not the warm, fuzzy, everything-you-do-is-all-right kind of
   sentiment that some of today’s parents envelope their kids in. It’s not some fluffy cloud that we all float happily on, leaving our troubles behind.

Love is often tough, and uncompromising. It imposes discipline and justice where they are needed. It is not afraid to make tough decisions and often requires tremendous sacrifice.

To me, love’s most defining quality is that regardless of what it looks like, love intends and actually performs that which is truly best for the recipient. (By this, I don’t mean rationalizing our own disordered passions or desires as being for another person’s good).

1. The effects of love are good not just for the receiver but for the giver. So love is not just something we give to people without benefiting from it ourselves. Even right now, just talking about loving Osama, works the good in us of looking deep into ourselves and truly pondering what God expects of us. While we struggle with the idea of loving him, we are being drawn towards the moral perfection God wills for His children. So, regardless of how it is received, the act of giving love is *never *futile.

 

[Valke2]

If Corrie ten Boom could forgive her prison guard for torturing her and killing her friends while she was in a concentration camp that Hitler invented, I think we should look to her for the forgiveness that is needed in extreme cases.

She was the victim and if she wants to forgive that is her right. However, it would be another matter, I think, if I were to say I want to forgive her prison guard.

 

[Hastrman]

Speer served time in jail until 1966. I don’t think he invented the gas, although he was in charge of Germany’s armaments. His crime that he was sentenced for was mostly based on his use of slave labor for arms production. But I understand and agree with the sentiment of your post.

No, he only invented the gaseous form of it (if we’re talking about Zyklon-B; I don’t know who invented Sarin). The original substance, prussic acid, was discovered by an alchemist named Konrad Dippel in the 17th Century, who was once kicked out of a university for stealing cadavers in order to resurrect the dead (the true goal of Hermetic alchemy).

His full name was Konrad Dippel…von Frankenstein.

Stranger than fiction, my friends.

Ahem.

Someone up above said it would be licit to pray for the death of a heresiarch. No, it would not. It would, however, be licit to pray that he stopped his teaching…one way or another.

Similarly, with Bin Laden, it would be wrong to pray for his death. Pray that he stops…one way or another.

But, if it comes down to it, nobody can say killing him is not justified. Although you might make him a martyr, martyrs don’t have bank accounts, and “Free Bin Laden” doesn’t need to become a cause celebre.

 

[Shoshana]

She was the victim and if she wants to forgive that is her right. However, it would be another matter, I think, if I were to say I want to forgive her prison guard.

it is not her right but her duty, for we will forgiven as we forgive others. Whether we want to hear that or not, it is a fact.

 

[Valke2]

No, he only invented the gaseous form of it (if we’re talking about Zyklon-B; I don’t know who invented Sarin). The original substance, prussic acid, was discovered by an alchemist named Konrad Dippel in the 17th Century, who was once kicked out of a university for stealing cadavers in order to resurrect the dead (the true goal of Hermetic alchemy).

His full name was Konrad Dippel…von Frankenstein.

Stranger than fiction, my friends.

Ahem.

Someone up above said it would be licit to pray for the death of a heresiarch. No, it would not. It would, however, be licit to pray that he stopped his teaching…one way or another.

Similarly, with Bin Laden, it would be wrong to pray for his death. Pray that he stops…one way or another.

But, if it comes down to it, nobody can say killing him is not justified. Although you might make him a martyr, martyrs don’t have bank accounts, and “Free Bin Laden” doesn’t need to become a cause celebre.

I never heard any source saying Speer had anything to do with the development of Zyklon b. Where did you hear this? My quote saying that it would be licit to pray for the death of a heresiarch was from the Catholic Encyclopedia, so I am assuming that the Church does not prohibit such a prayer.

 

[Valke2]

it is not her right but her duty, for we will forgiven as we forgive others. Whether we want to hear that or not, it is a fact.

Whether it is her right or duty, it is certainly not my right or duty to forgive the people who tortured her. If someone enters your house and shoots your infant in the head or mutulates and murders your spouse, do I have the right to forgive that person?

Elie Wiesel who was a concentration camp victim, was once called into the deathbead of an SS colonel (not sure of the rank) who had regreted specific act he had undertaken, like setting fire to a house full of Jews and barricading the doors so they couldn’t get out. He sought forgivness from Wiesel, apparently because he was Jewsih. He did not give it. What right did he have to bestow forgiveness for the murder of others? The only ones who could do that were already dead.

 

[seekerz]

Whether it is her right or duty, it is certainly not my right or duty to forgive the people who tortured her. If someone enters your house and shoots your infant in the head or mutulates and murders your spouse, do I have the right to forgive that person?

Elie Wiesel who was a concentration camp victim, was once called into the deathbead of an SS colonel (not sure of the rank) who had regreted specific act he had undertaken, like setting fire to a house full of Jews and barricading the doors so they couldn’t get out. He sought forgivness from Wiesel, apparently because he was Jewsih. He did not give it. What right did he have to bestow forgiveness for the murder of others? The only ones who could do that were already dead.

To the extent that a harm done to someone else offends us (e.g. 911), we are in a position to offer the perpetrator forgiveness even if the actual victims are no longer alive.

By your reasoning society also should not punish someone who offends - since we were not personally hurt, we should leave retribution to the victims or their relatives. How can we have the right to punish a wrongdoer without the right to also forgive?

Ultimately, forgiveness comes from God. Since we are all indebted to Him by reason of our sinfulness, we dare not withhold forgiveness from those indebted to us by reason of their crimes.

Since God is without fault, He may choose to extend or withhold forgiveness as He sees fit - yet we know that all He demands is repentance.

 

[mdgspencer]

You are quite right. No one can forgive someone for what they have done to others who we do not know. But the fundamental matter is loving our enemies. Forgiveness though is something I will have to consider carefully. God forgives sinners, but what does this mean for us? In fact God forgives us, and perhaps often.

Whether it is her right or duty, it is certainly not my right or duty to forgive the people who tortured her. If someone enters your house and shoots your infant in the head or mutulates and murders your spouse, do I have the right to forgive that person?

Elie Wiesel who was a concentration camp victim, was once called into the deathbead of an SS colonel (not sure of the rank) who had regreted specific act he had undertaken, like setting fire to a house full of Jews and barricading the doors so they couldn’t get out. He sought forgivness from Wiesel, apparently because he was Jewsih. He did not give it. What right did he have to bestow forgiveness for the murder of others? The only ones who could do that were already dead.

 

[Valke2]

To the extent that a harm done to someone else offends us (e.g. 911), we are in a position to offer the perpetrator forgiveness even if the actual victims are no longer alive.

By your reasoning society also should not punish someone who offends - since we were not personally hurt, we should leave retribution to the victims or their relatives. How can we have the right to punish a wrongdoer without the right to also forgive?

Ultimately, forgiveness comes from God. Since we are all indebted to Him by reason of our sinfulness, we dare not withhold forgiveness from those indebted to us by reason of their crimes.

Since God is without fault, He may choose to extend or withhold forgiveness as He sees fit - yet we know that all He demands is repentance.

If God wants to forgive Bin Laden, that’s His business. If He is going to ask me to forgive Bin Laden, I’m going to decline. Punishment of the criminal by society is justice, not vengence. IMO, to forgive a wrongdoer who has murdered someone, for example, is to belittle the victim. If the sinner wants forgivness, they need to ask the ones they have wronged. There’s no obligation on the victims to forgive. I don’t recall even Jesus saying forgive those who wrong you. If he did, does that mean that not forgiving someone who has wronged you is a sin?

Does anyone here really forgive Bin Laden? Does anyone here really love Bin Laden? Are we so far off track on what is right that we are not discussing forgiving someone who is responsible for murdering thousands, when that person has not even asked us for forgiveness??

 

[Valke2]

You are quite right. No one can forgive someone for what they have done to others who we do not know. But the fundamental matter is loving our enemies. Forgiveness though is something I will have to consider caerefully. God forgives sinners, but what does this mean we should do?

We are, I agree, mixing up the two issues of forgiveness and love.

 

[Brendan]

If God wants to forgive Bin Laden, that’s His business. If He is going to ask me to forgive Bin Laden, I’m going to decline. Punishment of the criminal by society is justice, not vengence.

You are equating forgiveness with lack of punishment? The two are not the same.

It is not only possible, but a worthy goal, to see that someone you have forgiven ALSO perform just attonement. That is what God does to us in purgation.

The two are NOT contrary, but combined are a loving act.

 

[HM8404]

Does anyone here really forgive Bin Laden? Does anyone here really love Bin Laden?

I have forgiven Bin Laden; it has taken almost 5 years after the attacks but I did. However, as I stated before, I would not hesitate to carry out the appropriate action in the extremely unlikely event that I encounter him.

To forgive someone does not mean you do not punish them for their transgressions or in his case, the murder of innocent civilians.

Personally, I would rather him be captured because we do not need him getting martyr status; they would eat that up.

 

[Valke2]

BTW, I misspoke when I refered to Elie Weisel. It was Simon Weisenthal. He wrote a book called “Sunflower”. The first half is the story which I outlined. The second half is a response by various well know people on whether they believe he did the right thing.