Loving Bin Laden

[seekerz]

If God wants to forgive Bin Laden, that’s His business. If He is going to ask me to forgive Bin Laden, I’m going to decline. Punishment of the criminal by society is justice, not vengence. IMO, to forgive a wrongdoer who has murdered someone, for example, is to belittle the victim. If the sinner wants forgivness, they need to ask the ones they have wronged. There’s no obligation on the victims to forgive. I don’t recall even Jesus saying forgive those who wrong you. If he did, does that mean that not forgiving someone who has wronged you is a sin?

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Multiple times in Scripture (I could search for the exact quotes if you need them), Jesus commands us both to love and to forgive those who hurt us.

We are told to: love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, forgive as we want to be forgiven (see parable of the unforgiving servant), love our neighbor (see the parable of the Good Samaritan to understand who a neighbor is). Jesus wasn’t just talk, He gave us His own example: healing the servant whose ear Peter cut off in the garden, asking His Father to forgive those who crucified Him, forgiving sins of those who came to Him for physical healing, He also did not cut Peter off after his denial…

I could go on and on, but the point is when we refuse to forgive and to love, it perpetuates a cycle of negative emotions and actions that warp our lives and those of generations to come. Hate does nobody any good. Surely by now the sorry state of our world would have taught us this much.***

Does anyone here really forgive Bin Laden? Does anyone here really love Bin Laden? Are we so far off track on what is right that we are not discussing forgiving someone who is responsible for murdering thousands, when that person has not even asked us for forgiveness??

Sure, I have forgiven Bin Laden, because God demands no less from me and because refusal to do so would make me hate-filled and vengeful (qualities which unchecked, turn normal people into terrorists). When we hate, we eventually become that which we hate - the ultimate victory for those bent on our destruction.

P.S. That does not mean I don’t think BL should be brought to justice. If a friend/relative/even child of mine went out and shot even one person, I would hand them over to the authorities. Don’t interpret that to mean I would stop loving them, even for a second. Justice and love are not mutually exclusive, but together they give rise to this most wonderful of gifts called mercy.

 

[Shoshana]

Does anyone here really forgive Bin Laden? Does anyone here really love Bin Laden? Are we so far off track on what is right that we are not discussing forgiving someone who is responsible for murdering thousands, when that person has not even asked us for forgiveness??

If you cannot start your journey in forgiving OBL, then, you yourself cannot be forgiven. As is stated in the Lord’s Prayer…

 

[Valke2]

It is one thing to forgive YOUR enemies. Enemies who have injured you. I don’t know if I agree with this but that would seem to be what, from what I’ve read here, Jesus is talking about. It is another thing to forgive enemies for things they have done to others. I don’t see anything in the Lord’s Prayer that requires one to forgive those who sin against other people (as opposed to those who sin against me).

IMO, it would be a much greater sin for me to forgive Hitler than it would be for me to withhold such forgivness.

 

[seekerz]

It is never a sin to forgive. If I can’t forgive an offender who hurt someone else, by the same logic I can’t punish him either - after all the offender didn’t hurt me now, did he?

 

[Valke2]

It is never a sin to forgive. If I can’t forgive an offender who hurt someone else, by the same logic I can’t punish him either - after all the offender didn’t hurt me now, did he?

I don’t understand that logic. What does dispensing justice have to do with anything? Besides, how can you forgive and punish at the same time? This can only be done if we acknowledge that the morality of Justice is distinct from the morality of forgivness.

 

[fin]

That truly was a wonderful and awe-inspiring response from the Amish people. I know I’ll never forget it. That was really saintly behavior…

I agree. I really like some of the responses here.
Yes, we should pray for bin Laden’s conversion. That’s real love.

 

[seekerz]

I don’t understand that logic. What does dispensing justice have to do with anything? Besides, how can you forgive and punish at the same time? This can only be done if we acknowledge that the morality of Justice is distinct from the morality of forgivness.

I’m just using your logic. You claim it’s wrong for you to forgive someone who hurt another person because you were not the victim. How then can you punish that same offender when his act was not against you? Let the victim punish him!

 

[Valke2]

I’m just using your logic. You claim it’s wrong for you to forgive someone who hurt another person because you were not the victim. How then can you punish that same offender when his act was not against you? Let the victim punish him!

When I use the term punish, I am referring to justice. Not allowing someone to turn around and take the law into their own hands.

But I think we have stated our positions clearly and I don’t we don’t need to keep dancing round and round the same issue. If you haven’t read “Sunflower”, you might enjoy it. here’s a paragraph synopsis on Amazon.com

Author Simon Weisenthal recalls his demoralizing life in a concentration camp and his envy of the dead Germans who have sunflowers marking their graves. At the time he assumed his grave would be a mass one, unmarked and forgotten. Then, one day, a dying Nazi soldier asks Weisenthal for forgiveness for his crimes against the Jews. What would you do? This important book and the provocative question it poses is birthing debates, symposiums, and college courses. The Dalai Lama, Harry Wu, Primo Levi, and others who have witnessed genocide and human tyranny answer Wiesenthal’s ultimate question on forgiveness.

Interestingly, one of the people who write an response/essay to this question is Albert Speer. There are 53 responses from, among others:
Sven Alkalaj, Bosnian Ambassador to the U.S., Moshe Bejski, retired justice of the Supreme Court of Israel, Robert McAfee Brown, leading Protestant theologian, Robert Coles, Harvard professor of social ethics and author, The Dalai Lama, Eugene Fisher, National Conference of Catholic Bishops, Matthew Fox, author and leading Episcopalian theologian, Yossi Klein Halevi, Israeli journalist and son of a Holocaust survivor, Arthur Hertzberg, rabbi and author, Theodore Hesburgh, President Emeritus of the University of Notre Dame, Hans Konig, Cardinal of Vienna, Harold Kushner, rabbi and best-selling author, Primo Levi, Italian Holocaust survivor and author, Cynthia Ozick, novelist and essayist, Dennis Prager, author and conservative radio commentator, Dith Pran, photographer and subject of the film “The Killing Fields” about the Cambodian genocide, Albert Speer, German Nazi war criminal and author, Tzvetan Todorov, French literary critic, Harry Wu, Chinese human rights activist.

 

[firefly2k7]

I agree. I really like some of the responses here.
Yes, we should pray for bin Laden’s conversion. That’s real love.

Love does not always produce the same warm, tender, kissy-face feelings we have toward our family & friends. I believe when we have feelings of hatred toward someone but we still pray for their conversion and well being. That is good overcoming evil in our hearts–love overcoming hate–even if we still feel the hate without ever actually feeling any love. For a lack of a better way of saying, I call it invisible love.

 

[nilofc]

Valke…

In the end, there are only 2 kinds of people.

One who will go to heaven, who says…God, Thy will be done.

and the other kind whom God says, your will be done, have it your own way. And He will say, depart from me and into the enternal abyss of fire.

God called us to embrace and love our cross, carry it. God commanded us to love our enemies. If you can’t and won’t…then your will be done.

 

[Valke2]

Valke…

In the end, there are only 2 kinds of people.

One who will go to heaven, who says…God, Thy will be done.

and the other kind whom God says, your will be done, have it your own way. And He will say, depart from me and into the enternal abyss of fire.

God called us to embrace and love our cross, carry it. God commanded us to love our enemies. If you can’t and won’t…then your will be done.

I can quote plenty of passages where we are encouraged to hate our enemies. The Church itself allows hatred under certain circumstances according to the Catholic Encyclopedia. If God wants to send me to hell for hating Hitler and Bin Laden, then the afterlife is more unjust than this one.

 

[sheilaharris]

Since we were small children, we have been told to hate the sin but love the sinner. And sometimes that is hard to do.:grouphug:

 

[Valke2]

Since we were small children, we have been told to hate the sin but love the sinner. And sometimes that is hard to do.:grouphug:

Sometimes, it you want to stop the sin from being repeated, you have to hate the sinner. Or, if you prefer, it is necessary to prusue and destory the sinner and act in such a manner that crushes any chance have empathizing or sympathizing with the sinner.

 

[Shoshana]

Sometimes, it you want to stop the sin from being repeated, you have to hate the sinner. Or, if you prefer, it is necessary to prusue and destory the sinner and act in such a manner that crushes any chance have empathizing or sympathizing with the sinner.

OBL could be put in jail, fed and out of harm’s way. This can all be done in love.

 

[Valke2]

Love is an inadequate motivator when it comes to purusing justice. I believe we are perfectly capable of distinguishing righteous hatred from misplaced hatred.

 

[nilofc]

I can quote plenty of passages where we are encouraged to hate our enemies. The Church itself allows hatred under certain circumstances according to the Catholic Encyclopedia. If God wants to send me to hell for hating Hitler and Bin Laden, then the afterlife is more unjust than this one.

True. You can quote a lot of Old Testament passages about hating your fellow men, but at most, you’ll only take the context out of its meaning from those passages. The key to understanding the Old Testament scriptures is to tie it with the New Testament. As St. Agustine has said, the New is concealed in the Old, and the Old is revealed in the new.

You may also want to quote the passage where Jesus flipped tables at the table for having turned the temple into a marketplace, but let me just point out that there is such a thing as justified anger, as all emotions are good, they are God given. But don’t let that anger turn into hate.

Jesus could have easily hated those who have mocked him and challenged him to come down from the cross while He was hanging there dying for you. But instead he prayed forgiveness for those very people who has persecuted Him. (That’s me and you)

God Himself came down and gave us the summary of His commandments. And that is, to love God above all else and the second one is to love our neighbor.

God didn’t ask that you don’t have enemies, what He said is to love your enemies. If the world hated Him first, so will the world hate you. You will always have enemies, but you must recognize that the real enemy is not Bin Laden or Hitler. It is the devil.

As I said, it’s either you say to God…“Thy will be done”…or God says to you “your will be done”.

These are His 2 commandments: Love God, Love thy neighbor.

Pray for those who persecute you.

So it’s either your opinion or Jesus’ commandments. What will it be?

God Bless Brother! May the peace of Christ reign in your heart each day.

 

[nilofc]

I am a despicable sinner and I need my God so badly. I need my merciful Jesus to change my heart so that I may walk in His ways. I will never be able to tread the narrow path towards the heavenly gate if Mama Mary and Jesus will not take each of my hand and guide me there.

I think the key to loving our enemies is to refresh ourselves with the basic Catholic doctrine of Pain and Suffering.

I remember the scene in the “Passion of the Christ” when Jesus embraced the cross, the thief said, “Are you crazy? Why are you embracing your cross??”

That is an awesome scene. Makes me think, am I ready to take up and embrace my cross as God has commanded me to take up everyday? Am I ready to be a great saint by asking for sufferings? Am I ready to embrace that wheelchair? Am I ready to ask for that chemotherapy? Am I ready to stand in the grave of a loved one? Can anybody love God more than anything in this world?

Then I remember Job. Everything was taken from him. His family, his wealth and yes, his health. Then I remember, Mama Mary, whose sword pierced her heart seeing her only son dying for the very people who hates. Then I remember that a great multitude of great saints dying for Christ.

Then I ask myself this question…And this simple act of loving your enemy is too great of a burden for me?? Each time I think of the saints, I feel so small… but encouraged. So having to suffer for others becomes easy to me. To give love instead of hate is automatic…but only thorugh the grace of God. Coupled with the prayers of my elder brothers and sisters who are now in heaven cheering for me. The likes of Pio of Pietrelcina , Anthony of Padua, Bernadette Soubirous, Grignion de Montfort…

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” Mt. 7:6

Sufferings which is endowed by the sufferings of Christ will not be given to someone who does not see the value of it. Sufferings are pearls…great treasures. Treasures that will never fade…treasures that you can store up in heaven.

Give me a saint who never suffered and I’ll tell you will never find one.

Wanna be a great saint? Ask for sufferings.

Peace.

 

[MelanieAnne]

One definition of Love is wanting the best for the other person, the beloved. The posters who say they can pray for his conversion are expressing love.

For Bin Laden to see the error of his ways, to convert and come to the One True Church of Our Lord would involve Bin Laden coming to terms with all of his sins. If truly penitent, he would be absolved of his sins.

Besides praying for him, we all have to forgive him. One of the hardest things to do is to pray for enemies and forgive people who aren’t sorry for the harm they have done. But we are all called to forgive, because if we will not forgive others, then why should we expect God to forgive us? And we acknowledge this every Mass when we say the Our Father ~ “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. That word “as” is very important. We are forgiven the same way we forgive.

It should be noted that our forgiving him in no way impacts on what governments do to bring him to justice. There is a big difference.

Pray for the conversion of Bin Laden and if you cannot forgive him, then pray for the strength to forgive him.

 

[Shoshana]

I am a despicable sinner and I need my God so badly. I need my merciful Jesus to change my heart so that I may walk in His ways. I will never be able to tread the narrow path towards the heavenly gate if Mama Mary and Jesus will not take each of my hand and guide me there.

I think the key to loving our enemies is to refresh ourselves with the basic Catholic doctrine of Pain and Suffering.

I remember the scene in the “Passion of the Christ” when Jesus embraced the cross, the thief said, “Are you crazy? Why are you embracing your cross??”

That is an awesome scene. Makes me think, am I ready to take up and embrace my cross as God has commanded me to take up everyday? Am I ready to be a great saint by asking for sufferings? Am I ready to embrace that wheelchair? Am I ready to ask for that chemotherapy? Am I ready to stand in the grave of a loved one? Can anybody love God more than anything in this world?

Then I remember Job. Everything was taken from him. His family, his wealth and yes, his health. Then I remember, Mama Mary, whose sword pierced her heart seeing her only son dying for the very people who hates. Then I remember that a great multitude of great saints dying for Christ.

Then I ask myself this question…And this simple act of loving your enemy is too great of a burden for me?? Each time I think of the saints, I feel so small… but encouraged. So having to suffer for others becomes easy to me. To give love instead of hate is automatic…but only thorugh the grace of God. Coupled with the prayers of my elder brothers and sisters who are now in heaven cheering for me. The likes of Pio of Pietrelcina , Anthony of Padua, Bernadette Soubirous, Grignion de Montfort…

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” Mt. 7:6

Sufferings which is endowed by the sufferings of Christ will not be given to someone who does not see the value of it. Sufferings are pearls…great treasures. Treasures that will never fade…treasures that you can store up in heaven.

Give me a saint who never suffered and I’ll tell you will never find one.

Wanna be a great saint? Ask for sufferings.

Peace.

 

[Valke2]

I think it makes a mockery of Jesus to interpet his words as requiring you to love a Bin Laden. The person who mocks you, or cheats you out of some money, or slanders you in front of your friends – him you should love. Bin Laden, not so much.