Loving God in a Divided Church

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

It’s possible that it was my fault, but it’s also possible that they were not godly.

To be honest, you really do seem inclined to make judgements of the heart that you are not qualified to make.

Kendy:

As for thinking of how far I could have gone, I have no doubt that leaving the RCC was the best thing I need at that point.

That’s quite possible. Sometimes you have to leave in order to look at what you’re leaving objectively—or so it was with me.

Kendy:

I could easily say the same things to you. Don’t knock protestanism until you have tried it! .

Been there, done that…

Kendy:

Surely, even God understands the laws of incentives?

Not sure what you’re implying with “even God”…
Clearly God doesn’t use incentives as you understand them. Jesus promised humiliation and persecution for those that followed Him: guess He needs to have you explain those “laws” to Him, 'cause by your standard He’s done a lousy job, what with that whole cross-thing.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Kendy:

Perhaps, the RCC needs to sit down and figure out how they are failing to communicate this message to people.

That’s why I asked the question. Thank you jpete79 for answering. Yes, you do have a point that all of us at one time need to realize our own brokeness and sinfulness on a more personal level. The words are there in our prayers, (i.e. “I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned through my own fault…”…“Lord I am not worthy to recieve you but only say the word and I shall be healed”…) but if we merely say the words without reflecting on the meaning we might miss that point.

Kendy, a lot of us here on Catholic Answers Forums have tried Protestantism. I believe you when you say you have grown in your faith. My faith also grew when I was away from the Catholic Church. I am sorry that I ever stopped attending the Catholic Church, yet God knows how to bring good out of bad. He will never abandon anyone who truly seeks Him.

One of the reasons my Catholic faith is strong now is when I returned I was finally ready to submit to the authority of the Church. Many Catholic parishes are filled with people expecting the Church to change to what they want instead of finding out why the Church teaches what it does. You mentioned contraception in your original post–that’s a common one and I’ve been there too. Since returning to the Church my submission to Church teachings on that matter has quite literally brought me new life from the Lord and Giver of Life.

The people in the Church may need to change, and we could perhaps do a better job with the way we share the message of salvation, but the Church teachings should never change to meet demands of the lukewarm people in and out of the pews. The Church has the right teachings, but many Catholics just minimally go through the motions and merely recite words. And I’m sorry if that kind of witness drove you out of the Church. I hope you’ll give us another chance sometime to prove once again that we are all indeed sinners who need Christ.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

To be honest, you really do seem inclined to make judgements of the heart that you are not qualified to make.

That’s quite possible. Sometimes you have to leave in order to look at what you’re leaving objectively—or so it was with me.

Been there, done that…

Not sure what you’re implying with “even God”…
Clearly God doesn’t use incentives as you understand them. Jesus promised humiliation and persecution for those that followed Him: guess He needs to have you explain those “laws” to Him, 'cause by your standard He’s done a lousy job, what with that whole cross-thing.

I don’t know that I am any more judgemental than you are, but I would prefer not to talk you anymore since you are too invested in your views to listen to what I am saying. That doesn’t make for a fruitful conversation.

And it’s not that I have a problem with those who disagree. I realized I would run into disagreement, but I would like my ideas to seriously engaged with and for the most part that is what I found. You are not doing that.

Kendy

 

[Church_Militant]

Kendy:

Perhaps, the RCC needs to sit down and figure out how they are failing to communicate this message to people. I grew up in the church, but all the crucifixes failed to communicate a clear message to me, and I still thought that at the end of the day it all came down to how many “Hail Marys” you say. Or to be more specific, the message of John 3:16 never really resonated. Again, I know you believe that all the rituals have a purpose, but my experience was that it was just a lot of noise. Lots of repeat this five times, sit, stand, kneel, don’t eat fish on Friday. But it seemed so disconnected to the love of God.

Kendy

Did you know why you did the things that you did? That was my experience, but now I do and the more I learn the better I love it.

As for the church needing to “figure out…” You are talking to the very answer to that need. Catholics that know their faith and love the Lord and are all about sharing our faith with others. It’s taken time and the work of the Holy Spirit, but (Glory Be To God!) the harvest is starting to come in at last! Moreover…“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet” as the old rock song says. :bounce: This forum was dinky a year ago…now it’s growing like mad and so are the folks that are here with me.

You seem to have missed the same things that I did, but the truth is that I missed it because I was a fool and paid no attention to the very people who could have shown me to a deeper understanding and more living faith. My own stupidity…all the way…no excuses.
Hopefully you read my story , and if you have questions…feel free to PM me. I’ll be happy to help.
Pax tecum,

 

[Kendy]

gardenswithkids:

That’s why I asked the question. Thank you jpete79 for answering. Yes, you do have a point that all of us at one time need to realize our own brokeness and sinfulness on a more personal level. The words are there in our prayers, (i.e. “I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned through my own fault…”…“Lord I am not worthy to recieve you but only say the word and I shall be healed”…) but if we merely say the words without reflecting on the meaning we might miss that point.

Kendy, a lot of us here on Catholic Answers Forums have tried Protestantism. I believe you when you say you have grown in your faith. My faith also grew when I was away from the Catholic Church. I am sorry that I ever stopped attending the Catholic Church, yet God knows how to bring good out of bad. He will never abandon anyone who truly seeks Him.

One of the reasons my Catholic faith is strong now is when I returned I was finally ready to submit to the authority of the Church. Many Catholic parishes are filled with people expecting the Church to change to what they want instead of finding out why the Church teaches what it does. You mentioned contraception in your original post–that’s a common one and I’ve been there too. Since returning to the Church my submission to Church teachings on that matter has quite literally brought me new life from the Lord and Giver of Life.

The people in the Church may need to change, and we could perhaps do a better job with the way we share the message of salvation, but the Church teachings should never change to meet demands of the lukewarm people in and out of the pews. The Church has the right teachings, but many Catholics just minimally go through the motions and merely recite words. And I’m sorry if that kind of witness drove you out of the Church. I hope you’ll give us another chance sometime to prove once again that we are all indeed sinners who need Christ.

Thanks for your response. I agree that the church shouldn’t go around accommodating lukewarm Christians.

Now, as for giving the catholic church another try. I been reminded to do this over and over on this forum and I would like to respond. I am not sure why I should leave the church has brought me closer to God for the church that has not. I am particularly not sure why I should upset my very happy spiritual life, which is the point I was trying to make earlier about God offering us incentives. When I came to the Lord, I came because I was confronted with the emptiness of my life. I am not experiencing any such emptiness. Instead, I have experienced nothing but blessings. In the past couple months, God has blessed me with financial assistance after losing my job. I had a job that pays more than $60 per hour land on my lap without looking. Someone just offered it to me. When I sick and without health insurance, I called my pastor and requested prayer and my eye infection went away. I am enjoying daily readings of scripture and worship. I just don’t know why I should mess with a good thing.

Of course, you say, you can have a better thing in the catholic church, but a Mormon might tell me the same thing. As for communion, the catholic church is the only church that believes in transubstantiation but not the only church that believes that communion is more than a symbol so right now that doesn’t exactly motivate me either.

You say you havde truth, well, in my daily prayer life and reading scripture and study of theology, I seek for truth. I regularly ask God for wisdom. Perhaps, these seekings will lead me to the catholic church, but I see no reason to go looking for it.

The only reason I would consider it is because I am saddened that the church is so divided, but I would still be divided with other Christians outside of the church.

Right now, is it possible for you die-hard catholics (unlike any catholics I have ever met personally) to rejoice in the fact that I have accepted the Lord, and just keep the lines to communication open. We can’t be one unless we talk to each other.

With Love,
Kendy

 

[Kendy]

By the way, I don’t need to be reminded to learn more about the church. Despite what some of you may suspect, I am not interested in converting you. So, I wouldn’t be visting this site if I did not care to understand.

Right now joining the RCC is not something I could see myself doing since besides not so fond memories, there are a few things about the church that make uncomfortable, but I am very much interested in dialogue and understanding.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Church Militant:

Did you know why you did the things that you did? That was my experience, but now I do and the more I learn the better I love it.

As for the church needing to “figure out…” You are talking to the very answer to that need. Catholics that know their faith and love the Lord and are all about sharing our faith with others. It’s taken time and the work of the Holy Spirit, but (Glory Be To God!) the harvest is starting to come in at last! Moreover…“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet” as the old rock song says. :bounce: This forum was dinky a year ago…now it’s growing like mad and so are the folks that are here with me.

You seem to have missed the same things that I did, but the truth is that I missed it because I was a fool and paid no attention to the very people who could have shown me to a deeper understanding and more living faith. My own stupidity…all the way…no excuses.
Hopefully you read my story , and if you have questions…feel free to PM me. I’ll be happy to help.
Pax tecum,

I don’t know that I was a fool. If you go back to my old church, I think the parish priest will remember me and he will say now as he said that that I was inquistive. I did want to understand particular during the last few months in the church.

Kendy

 

[wpr]

Kendy:

I am probably going to get jumped on for this, but another thing that has baffled. There seems to be a lot of talk on this site about how people need to research the church fathers and study their catholic faith. I have no problem with research or study, but it is the privilege of the few— those who have the means, access, and the education. I think it would go to explain why so many people are leaving the church. Does the single mother have the time or energy to read the “City of God?” Is the peasant in Mexico in a position to research Vatican II?

Given these contraints, it is the responsibility of believers to reach out with the love of God and to tell the world that he is real and loves you in a very personal (not individualistic) way.

Faith in God should change you. Loving God should arouse passion. While I don’t think that’s all there is to Christian faith, I think if you don’t have that, there’s something wrong because God is wonderful and He is worth getting excited about. That I did not see this in the people around me growing up became increasingly disturbing as I began to take my own faith seriously.

CKH

Hello Kendy,

Their are books out their that are not expensive that cover the CHurch Fathers. One is topically indexed called “The Teachings of the Church Fathers” Willis, Ignatius Press. The other is “The Faith of the Early Fathers” Jurgens, The Liturgical Press.

You do not need to be a scholar to read and understand the writings. Plus, you can do it over a long period of time. Reading one Father at a time. They are unbeleivably fascinating.

I was so intrigued to read the writings of early Christians. It was awesome. Some are actually pretty funny (Tertullian is quite a character).

Actually, I think it is quite the opposite when it comes to formation (study). The more people are challenged to grow in faith, the less likely they are to leave the Catholic Church. We Catholics who are motivated need to get going and ask so good people such as yourself don 't leave us. We need you!

I have 4 kids and totally sympathize with your time constraint. (I give all praise to my wife actually)

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Right now, is it possible for you die-hard catholics (unlike any catholics I have ever met personally) to rejoice in the fact that I have accepted the Lord, and just keep the lines to communication open. We can’t be one unless we talk to each other.

With Love,
Kendy

Yes, it’s possible—may God bless you and keep you always! I’m glad you have found the Lord.

 

[Kendy]

wpr:

Hello Kendy,

Their are books out their that are not expensive that cover the CHurch Fathers. One is topically indexed called “The Teachings of the Church Fathers” Willis, Ignatius Press. The other is “The Faith of the Early Fathers” Jurgens, The Liturgical Press.

You do not need to be a scholar to read and understand the writings. Plus, you can do it over a long period of time. Reading one Father at a time. They are unbeleivably fascinating.

I was so intrigued to read the writings of early Christians. It was awesome. Some are actually pretty funny (Tertullian is quite a character).

Actually, I think it is quite the opposite when it comes to formation (study). The more people are challenged to grow in faith, the less likely they are to leave the Catholic Church. We Catholics who are motivated need to get going and ask so good people such as yourself don 't leave us. We need you!

I have 4 kids and totally sympathize with your time constraint. (I give all praise to my wife actually)

Thank You.That was sweet. By the way, I did enjoy reading “City of God” and I do look forward reading more.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Kendy:

Now, as for giving the catholic church another try. I been reminded to do this over and over on this forum and I would like to respond. I am not sure why I should leave the church has brought me closer to God for the church that has not. I am particularly not sure why I should upset my very happy spiritual life, which is the point I was trying to make earlier about God offering us incentives…You say you havde truth, well, in my daily prayer life and reading scripture and study of theology, I seek for truth. I regularly ask God for wisdom. Perhaps, these seekings will lead me to the catholic church, but I see no reason to go looking for it.

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you knew that you were welcome to come back. I’m glad to read you say you honestly seek truth; you probably already realize that truth won’t always make us feel happy in this world.

Kendy:

The only reason I would consider it is because I am saddened that the church is so divided, but I would still be divided with other Christians outside of the church.

Right now, is it possible for you die-hard catholics (unlike any catholics I have ever met personally) to rejoice in the fact that I have accepted the Lord, and just keep the lines to communication open. We can’t be one unless we talk to each other.

Yes, of course it is possible for us to rejoice that you accept the Lord. But please don’t mind us if we are saddened that you didn’t find Him in the Catholic Church. (Wouldn’t you be sad if someone from your current church told you that she couldn’t find Christ there and described the members of your church to be the way you describe Catholics you knew?)

Beside being gladdened that you have a relation with the Lord, I am gladdened that you have come to this forum in an attempt to open lines of communication and perhaps heal some of the divission in Christianity. We can’t always easily tell why former Catholics come here: sometimes it’s in an effort to convert us or knock the Church; sometimes they seek reconciliation with the Church; and in your case it appears to be a desire to open communication. Talking to each other is a good starting point in trying to be one as Jesus prayed we’d be.

 

[Kendy]

gardenswithkids:

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you knew that you were welcome to come back. I’m glad to read you say you honestly seek truth; you probably already realize that truth won’t always make us feel happy in this world.

Hi,

Thanks for your welcome. I have a question. I have noticed that people get very uneasy when I talk about Joy. Surely, I realize that sometimes, the truth can make me unhappy, but I have found that that is only the case when I am rebelling against it. Once I accept God’s truth, it brings peace and joy. Why this suspicious attitude? Is it related to what I noticed, that people in the church did not seem to enjoy their Christian faith? This can’t be a good thing? Right?

Kendy

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Hi,

Thanks for your welcome. I have a question. I have noticed that people get very uneasy when I talk about Joy. Surely, I realize that sometimes, the truth can make me unhappy, but I have found that that is only the case when I am rebelling against it. Once I accept God’s truth, it brings peace and joy. Why this suspicious attitude? Is it related to what I noticed, that people in the church did not seem to enjoy their Christian faith? This can’t be a good thing? Right?

Kendy

Could you perhaps give concrete examples of this uneasiness and suspicion? I haven’t noticed any myself, and am curious. One possibility might be that you are perceiving the distrust of emotions as a guide for determining truth, and assuming that this equals a distrust of Joy. If that’s the case, let me point out a few things that might help you understand: first, this is an apologetics forum. Apologetics involves being "prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in you " (Peter 3:15). The emotions are not always a good guide (for example, adultery might “feel” very good and exciting) and so are of less usefulness here, and so naturally you’re not going to see it written about as much on this particular forum. Perhaps you would be better off in the “Spirituality” forum.
Secondly, it is worth stressing that emotions are volatile. Have you ever read of the “dark night of the soul”? Are you aware that periods of spiritual dryness are often suffered by very holy people, and indeed are often a sign of an advanced prayer life? (It’s a bit like being in tip-top physical shape: you’re more aware of your body and thus are aware of even small fluctuations.) I would recommend a book by Fr. Dubay called “The Fire Within” that explores infused prayer and a deepening communion with God, using the spirituality of St. Therese of Avila and St. John of the Cross as guides. We’re going through this with our priest in our Carmelite prayer group. This is why a marriage analogy is useful: if one’s feelings are used as the only guide, then the marriage will be rocky at best. Love of God includes the mind and heart—both, not one or the other alone.
I can speak for myself: I have experienced tremendous outpourings of grace and joy.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Kendy:

Thanks for your welcome. I have a question. I have noticed that people get very uneasy when I talk about Joy. Surely, I realize that sometimes, the truth can make me unhappy, but I have found that that is only the case when I am rebelling against it. Once I accept God’s truth, it brings peace and joy. Why this suspicious attitude? Is it related to what I noticed, that people in the church did not seem to enjoy their Christian faith? This can’t be a good thing? Right?

I draw a distinction between the meaning of “joy” and “happy”. I used the word “happy” because you used it to describe your current life. Had you originally used the word “joy” I wouldn’t have wrote anything about it. Joy comes from the Lord. But “happy” can be a feeling that comes and goes with our moods. We can’t determine truth by merely if it makes us happy or not.

I remember a distinct point in my returning to the Catholic Church when I felt compelled to examine one of her “contraversial” teachings. I read what the Church said and then checked carefully every reference it provided in the Bible. (I believed the Bible would tell truth, but I wasn’t quite sure about the Catholic Church.) Well, as I read passage after passage I felt sicker and sicker. I didn’t find “happiness” in learning that truth; it literally turned my stomach. It meant that I needed to change. Up until that point, I didn’t even really realize that I had been rebelling from that truth.

As I look back, I realize that God provided me great graces at the moment. I knew what I had to do, and I knew it wouldn’t be easy. I’ve been tested on it numerous times since then, and He has continued to provide all the grace I need. It’s still not easy for me, and it doesn’t always make me “happy”, yet obediance to that truth has brought me some of the greatest joys of my life which will last into eternity.

You may not have any such experience as mine because perhaps you are less rebellious than I was. But I included the words that you describe as a “suspicious attitude” because of my own experience with the truth. If I had merely determined truth based on "happy’ feelings, I’d be missing far greater joys.

 

[MariaG]

Kendy:

Hi,

Thanks for your welcome. I have a question. I have noticed that people get very uneasy when I talk about Joy. Surely, I realize that sometimes, the truth can make me unhappy, but I have found that that is only the case when I am rebelling against it. Once I accept God’s truth, it brings peace and joy. Why this suspicious attitude? Is it related to what I noticed, that people in the church did not seem to enjoy their Christian faith? This can’t be a good thing? Right?

Kendy

As stated previously, we did not get uncomfortable with joy, but happiness. Happiness comes and go. Yet we can be joyful in the Lord and still be sad, upset etc.

People are concerned about basing your faith in God on happiness, a fleeting emotion. Even saying it is joy, thinking it is from the Lord, can sometimes not be a true reflection.

I posted this on another thread but it is a good example.

I had a good friend while in the Evangelical Church who attended with me. She was sure the Holy Spirit leading her. She said He was leading her to the Mormon Church. She felt such joy in the decision, she knew it was the right one. Currently she is a member of the Mormon Church, she still feels it was the right decision.

Emotions can be misleading. Truth does not always bring happiness. Happiness can sometimes be mistaken for the joy of the Lord.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Kikero]

Kendy

There’s much in this thread since my initial question to you. Much I’d love to respond to but it’s just too much for the time I’ve to spend here, so I’ll give a general response rather than a specific one.

What I see is a person genuinely interested in investigating the church and it’s teachings, as scripture demands of us. Personally I think some are being a bit unfair to you in that you are new here and they have been through this many times. Patience runs thin at times where perhaps it should not. I don’t doubt God and the Spirit are with you and I pray you find the answers you seek. It is not easy to overcome the misconceptions about the church planted by those outside the RCC.

I for one am also a convert from an independent protestant branch and I can tell you from experience there were many things outside of the church that lead me too it. Heck it was a televangelist that got me started down the road and introduced me to the spirit and I don’t doubt for an instant the moment I was seized. And once I began to discover that what I was told and made to believe of the RCC was in fact not only wrong but blatently and scandelously wrong the fire burned all the hotter. I fealt cheated and frankly the church is not blameless in this. The RCC did away with apologetics as a standard for it’s members for nearly 3 generations and that decision is comming back to bite it. It’s hard to keep members if teaching them why they should believe is neglected. If the laity have no other defense than “because I was raised this way” they can not overcome those forces outside that are trying to stip them away. Thankfully the trend is reversing and I believe we are in the beginning phase of a renewal within the church.

I wish you well friend and pray you find the answers you seek. Walk with God.

 

[Kendy]

Kikero:

Kendy

There’s much in this thread since my initial question to you. Much I’d love to respond to but it’s just too much for the time I’ve to spend here, so I’ll give a general response rather than a specific one.

What I see is a person genuinely interested in investigating the church and it’s teachings, as scripture demands of us. Personally I think some are being a bit unfair to you in that you are new here and they have been through this many times. Patience runs thin at times where perhaps it should not. I don’t doubt God and the Spirit are with you and I pray you find the answers you seek. It is not easy to overcome the misconceptions about the church planted by those outside the RCC.

I for one am also a convert from an independent protestant branch and I can tell you from experience there were many things outside of the church that lead me too it. Heck it was a televangelist that got me started down the road and introduced me to the spirit and I don’t doubt for an instant the moment I was seized. And once I began to discover that what I was told and made to believe of the RCC was in fact not only wrong but blatently and scandelously wrong the fire burned all the hotter. I fealt cheated and frankly the church is not blameless in this. The RCC did away with apologetics as a standard for it’s members for nearly 3 generations and that decision is comming back to bite it. It’s hard to keep members if teaching them why they should believe is neglected. If the laity have no other defense than “because I was raised this way” they can not overcome those forces outside that are trying to stip them away. Thankfully the trend is reversing and I believe we are in the beginning phase of a renewal within the church.

I wish you well friend and pray you find the answers you seek. Walk with God.

Thank You