Loving Mary...

[2ndGen]

Lutheran ISN’T protestant?!?! I think that is going be quite a big surprise to many catholics since it is a church that follows after Martin Luther’s ideas and beliefs.

Luther was a “Reformer”, not a Protestant. And hey! He loved Mary! He prayed to her, he venerated her, he even defended her Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity.

They are BAPTIST their name even shows they are not catholic. I guess the fact that they are so close to the catholic faith confuses you but this does happen. Even in protestant communities.

 

[lak611]

Luther was a “Reformer”, not a Protestant.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3211820:

When did the Catholic Church start considering Lutherans, Baptists, and Anglican to be anything but Protestant?

I think it was with a council during the 1960’s.

Here is a link where you can find out the teaching.

They may still be Protestant in name in the definition that they are not Catholics of The Roman Rite, but they are not Protestants in that they “protest” The Church such as anti-Catholics do.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

 

[2ndGen]

THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC

What does “catholic” mean?

830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310

All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.311

Each particular Church is “catholic”

832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament. . . . In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord’s Supper is celebrated. . . . In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted."312

833 The phrase “particular Church,” which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession.313 These particular Churches "are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists."314

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity."315 "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."316 Indeed, "from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."317

835 "Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world."318 The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches "unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church."319

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

 

[2ndGen]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[2ndGen]

The Reformation was the beginning of the Protestant churches. Lutherans are definitely Protestants. If they are not, why are they not allowed to receive Communion in a Catholic church?

Actually, their original attempt wasn’t to create new churches, but to reform the existing Church. They only formed new churches after their attempt to reform The Catholic Church failed.

The Protestants are a “result” of The Reformation attempt, but not the intent of the reformation.

They are not allowed to receive communion in The Roman Rite because they are not Latin Catholics. I believe they have their own communion.

 

[lak611]

lak611;3211840:

Actually, their original attempt wasn’t to create new churches, but to reform the existing Church. They only formed new churches after their attempt to reform The Catholic Church failed.

The Protestants are a “result” of The Reformation attempt, but not the intent of the reformation.

They are not allowed to receive communion in The Roman Rite because they are not Latin Catholics. I believe they have their own communion.

Lutherans are definitely considered to be Protestants. They are not Latin or Eastern Catholics, nor are they Eastern Orthodox. Any Christian who is not Latin or Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox is Protestant.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3211849:

Lutherans are definitely considered to be Protestants. They are not Latin or Eastern Catholics, nor are they Eastern Orthodox. Any Christian who is not Latin or Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox is Protestant.

Why don’t we let The Lutheran Church speak for itself:

xrysostom.blogspot.com/2005/10/lutheran-catholic-differences.html

By your question, I assume that you mean members of the Roman Catholic Church. True Lutherans realize that we are also catholic Christians; that is, we are members of the Una Sancta, the one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We disagree with the idea that the Roman Church holds the monopoly on being “catholic” and that “no salvation outside the Church” means “no salvation outside Roman Catholicism.” However, we teach that if you are not a “catholic” Christian, then you are of a sect or a cult.

 

[2ndGen]

Now compare what Lutherans believe to what Catholics accept as their doctrine:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

 

[lak611]

Now compare what Lutherans believe to what Catholics accept as their doctrine:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

So, do you believe that the Lutheran church professes the Catholic faith in its entirety?

 

[2ndGen]

So, do you believe that the Lutheran church professes the Catholic faith in its entirety?

Being that I posted Lutherans beliefs as being that "We disagree with the idea that the Roman Church holds the monopoly on being “catholic” and that “no salvation outside the Church” means “no salvation outside Roman Catholicism.” , for you to ask me that is kind of an insult to my intelligence.

 

[2ndGen]

So, do you believe that the Lutheran church professes the Catholic faith in its entirety?

It’s almost like you “didn’t” read the same quote that you responded to when it clearly stated:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to
the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian,
but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety…
Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized
are put in a certain, although imperfect,
communion with the Catholic Church.”

 

[Singinbeauty]

So I guess the question is, what do you consider protestant?

From the dictionary:

Main Entry: 1prot·es·tant
Pronunciation: \ˈprä-təs-tənt, 2 is also prə-ˈtes-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin protestant-, protestans, present participle of protestari
Date: 1539
1capitalized a: any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Spires in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement b: a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth; broadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church
2: one who makes or enters a protest

 

[lak611]

It’s almost like you “didn’t” read the same quote that you responded to when it clearly stated:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to
the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian,
but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety…
Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized
are put in a certain, although imperfect,
communion with the Catholic Church.”

I did read it. I do understand it. Technically, all human beings are part of the people of God, since God created them. Therefore, even an atheist or a pagan, has some connection to the Catholic Church as part of the people of God. Then there is a closer connection amongst those who are non-Catholic Christians. However, one still cannot say that Lutherans are not Protestant. Any Christian who belongs to an ecclesial community those arose out of the Reformation is a Protestant. But all people are part of the Church in an imperfect manner, just by virtue of God’s creation; Protestants of course, are closer than pagans, by virtue of their baptism.

From the Catechism:

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] “the first to hear the Word of God.”[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,[328] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”[332]

 

[lak611]

It’s almost like you “didn’t” read the same quote that you responded to when it clearly stated:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to
the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian,
but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety…
Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized
are put in a certain, although imperfect,
communion with the Catholic Church.”

So I guess the question is, what do you consider protestant?

From the dictionary:

Main Entry: 1prot·es·tant
Pronunciation: \ˈprä-təs-tənt, 2 is also prə-ˈtes-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin protestant-, protestans, present participle of protestari
Date: 1539
1capitalized a: any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Spires in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement b: a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth; broadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church
2: one who makes or enters a protest

Here is a new thread for discussion of who is considered to be a Protestant.

 

[2ndGen]

Here is a new thread for discussion of who is considered to be a Protestant.

I like to use the Dictionary.com definition which is a composite all the major Dictionaries with are also listed below Dictionary.com’s definition (American Heritage, Oxford, Webster’s, etc…).

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
Prot·es·tant
–noun

1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.
2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them.
3. (originally) any of the German princes who protested against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which had denounced the Reformation.
4. (lowercase) a person who protests.
   –adjective
5. belonging or pertaining to Protestants or their religion.
6. (lowercase) protesting.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
cath·o·lic
–adjective

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

 

[2ndGen]

I did read it. I do understand it. Technically, all human beings are part of the people of God, since God created them. Therefore, even an atheist or a pagan, has some connection to the Catholic Church as part of the people of God. Then there is a closer connection amongst those who are non-Catholic Christians. However, one still cannot say that Lutherans are not Protestant. Any Christian who belongs to an ecclesial community those arose out of the Reformation is a Protestant. But all people are part of the Church in an imperfect manner, just by virtue of God’s creation; Protestants of course, are closer than pagans, by virtue of their baptism.

From the Catechism:

Your including people “into” The Church by the definition of The Catechism is completely wrong.

All people are of God, but not all are of The Church. Because joining The Church is a voluntary action, your assertion is that The Catholic Church imposes membership without the persons (pagans, atheists, etc…) consent.

Now, we can rightfully say that all Christians that aren’t anti-Catholic Christians are members of The Body of Christ. That’s a biblical teaching (that anyone who is not against a Christian that calls themselves Christians are all members of one Body “in” Christ…The Church).

But you seemed to have drawn from the text of The Catechism that just being alive makes one a member of the Religious Institution known as The Church. With all due respect, your understanding of Catholic teaching is incorrect.

Your including pagans and atheists and whoever you wanted to outside of The Church based on their relationships to us as human beings in no way has anything to do with membership “in” The Church.

Being a human being in no way grants one membership in The Church.

Out of curiosity, could you point out “where” you see in The Catechism that techncially all human beings are automatically members of The Catholic Church (if I understood you correctly when you wrote “Technically, all human beings are part of the people of God, since God created them. Therefore, even an atheist or a pagan, has some connection to the Catholic Church as part of the people of God.”)

 

[Syele]

I said there weren’t any books on her? When?
{cut}
Really? They totally got by me. I’d love to see the Protestant devotional books to Mary. Plrease, tell me where are they (your post)?

here is the quote with Protestant (Protestant as defined by about 95% of the world) books about Mary:

Meditations on Mary by Kathleen Norris

Blessed Among Women: Encounters with Mary and Her Message by G. Scott Sparrow

Having a Mary Heart in a Martha World (volumes 1 and 2 I believe) by Joanna Weaver

Blessed is She: Living Lent with Mary By: Tim Perry

Mary for Evangelicals: Toward an Understanding of the Mother of Our Lord By: Tim Perry, William J. Abraham

Mary, Mother of God Edited By: Carl E. Braaten, Robert W. Jensen

There are others but I need to get offline and put my kid to bed.

As for churches, that’s true.
[/qoute]
no it isn’t true. And the souce I used in my previous post wass google, which I cited at the time.

You’ve got to be kidding me right? Anglicans and Episcopalians are catholic churches (small c). Not only that, Anglicans have a letter of agreement on Marian veneration.

 

[avonlise]

:clapping:

 

[2ndGen]

here is the quote with Protestant (Protestant as defined by about 95% of the world) books about Mary: