Loving Mary...

[2ndGen]

:clapping:

 

[Syele]

Syele;3214040:

Thank you. Like I said, it completely got by me. Sorry.

Now, know the difference between those books and Catholic and Muslim books? Those books are not church doctrine (for The Protestants), but personal expressions, whereas what Catholics and Muslims have written on Mary are “Doctrinal” have to be believed Dogma. As a matter of fact, Muslims have an entire book on Mary in their bible and mention her more than Christians do in The Holy Bible.

To my knowledge, no protestant churches have any additional books declared as Dogma. We don’t have a book of “Dogma” Titled “The Holy Trinity” either. That doesn’t prove we don’t love God.

But there is a huge difference between a book published by and inividual for commercial consumption and an edict of a governing religious body.

I don’t love people solely by edict of a governing body.

Yes there are “books” written by Protestants, but none by Protestant religions as Doctrine. My mistake in not clarifying what I was referring to.

Even those denominations that have written DOctrine don’t have “books” on each topic.

Ok, so every Anglican and Episcopalian who so proudly told me that they considers themselves “catholic Christians” and that they profess The Apostles Creed in which they proclaim their belief in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic church”, I guess their all wrong. All the congregations I’ve been involved with.

Why do you believe them? You don’t believe I love Mary. I profess The Apostles Creed as well. I don’t see anyone denying I’m protestant.

Protestant by definition of “not” being in The Catholic Church, but catholic by their affiliation with The Universal Christian Church. Ask them. As I said, I wasn’t speaking for them, but posted their own words from their own sites.

You are definately a “protestor” of The Catholic Church.

The AOG doesn’t have Apostolic Succession.

uh and Episcopalians do? You are contradicting yourself. According to you so far, I don’t love Mary cause I’m Protestant, but Episcopalians (I never renounced membership in the Episcopal Church BTW)are not Protestant, but I am definitely a protestant?

Whoever stated that they weren’t “protestants”?

you did.

Wow, that’s the third time that that name’s been thrown up…so tell me WHY none of you answer my questions regarding that particular church?

Beacause there are MANY churches names that not jsut the one singingbeauty posted up.

Here they are again (hopefully you’ll answer them for me):

That particular church [St. Mary’s Baptist Church]–>

*uses the Deuterocanonical Books “as” Scripture

There is no protestant edict that says a protestant church cannot recognize those books. I read them myself, though I do not consider them ‘inspired.’

*never “once” mentions The Virgin Mary in their entire website

they mention her name in the name of their church.

*pray to The Angels and The Saints for intercessions

*pray to The Archangel Rapael (who only Catholics believe in, not Protestants)

how does this prove they are not Protestant?

*practice “Catholic” practices (Holy Communion, retreats, have Deacons, etc…)

umm most protestant have Holy Communion, retreats, and Deacons. I have been to many retreats myself. how does this prove they are not protestant?

Now, after all of that, I ask;
Does Protestantism recognize these Christians that practice the same practices that were used as a justification for the original starting of their own religion(s)]

Protestants?

if they are not in communion with the Catholic Church they are Protestant. So, yes, I’d recognize them as Protestant.

Hopefully, you will be brave enough to respond to this difficult question.

Really wasn’t difficult.

According to their beliefs, they practice more “Catholic” (capitol C) practices in their church, than “Protestant” practices.

I think you are not too conversant on “Protestant Practices.”

So what does that make them?

:coffeeread:

still look protestant to me.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3214164:

Why do you believe them? You don’t believe I love Mary. I profess The Apostles Creed as well. I don’t see anyone denying I’m protestant.

I never stated that you “didn’t” love Mary, did I?

So, you believe in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” Church?

:clapping: And that’s sincere. Welcome to Christianity’s definition of The Catholic Church.

I never denied you were a non-Catholic Christian either (a “protestant”).

uh and Episcopalians do? You are contradicting yourself. According to you so far, I don’t love Mary cause I’m Protestant, but Episcopalians (I never renounced membership in the Episcopal Church BTW)are not Protestant, but I am definitely a protestant?

There you go again, misrepresenting me. I never said that you didn’t love Mary…just the Muslims love her more than your religious group does.

you did.

Show & prove: Where did I state that they weren’t protestants?

Beacause there are MANY churches names that not jsut the one singingbeauty posted up.

Maybe you missed it, but of the 3 churches used as supposed proofs, two of them were named after women members of their respective congregations and “not” after The Virgin Mary.

But you’re welcome to post 2 more examples to meet the standard 3 proofs to reasonably support what you proclaim. If there are so many, just post two (with citable sources of course so that I can either confirm or deny your proofs just as I did with singingbeauty’s).

There is no protestant edict that says a protestant church cannot recognize those books. I read them myself, though I do not consider them ‘inspired.’

Well, that’s not saying much as proof. The main core of Protestantism is that we can all decide for ourselves “what” to believe and that we dont’ need a teaching entity religiously to teach us (oh wait, so long as you accept The 5 Solas).

Show me 3 Protestant churches that consider them Scripture.

they mention her name in the name of their church.

I said “her” not just her name. They are like the protestants that “borrow” Mary for Christmas and Easter who accuse God of using Mary as simply a “mere” vessel, then abandoning her to the world after that without protecting her from sin (even though she protected His Son from death).

how does this prove they are not Protestant?

They are definately protestants, but I asked what “Protestants” thought about a church that practices “Catholic” practices.

Now, can you answer my question “without” a question?

umm most protestant have Holy Communion, retreats, and Deacons. I have been to many retreats myself. how does this prove they are not protestant?

These are “Catholic” practices…practices that we were criticized for by protestants. Now you guys are doing it to? So, where you wrong then or are you wrong now?

This is new to me. Really. I’ve never heard a protestant in my travels across this country refer to ever having practiced Holy Communion.

Do you pray to Saints and to Angels too?

I look forward to your “proofs” and to your answering the questions you missed from my last post to you that I re-pointed out to you.

 

[2ndGen]

John 13:34-35

"A new command I give you:

Love one another.

As I have loved you,

so you must love one another.

By this all men will know that you are my disciples,

if you love one another."

============================================

Now I ask every Protestant here
that doesn’t love Mary as much as Catholics (& Muslims)do…
…how did Jesus love His mother?

Then if you are His disciple, you’d love her the same.

 

[Lev23]

I never said that you didn’t love Mary…just the Muslims love her more than your religious group does.
.

Well, did you find out historically what most followers of Mohummad taught about apostates? You say I’m focusing on bad and you on the good. But lets get real here. Lets be honest to everyone involved, including Muslims. Do they love the same Mary you do? Do they love the same Mary in the gospels, the mother of Jesus Christ, who spoke in Luke 1:54-55-
**“He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.” **

We both know the promises were made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel), do the Muslims believe this? Mary was an Israelite. She praised God for fulfilling all he spoke of Israel.

Islam today is no friend of Israel. But you say they honor the one who praises God for being merciful to his servant Israel. But will Islam as a whole ever be merciful towards Israel?

Furthermore, it is proven there are those teachers in Islam that teach if a apostate that does not come back to Islam must be killed. Read up what happened when Arabs tried to leave Islam when Muhammad died.

How can Islam’s Mary be the Mary of scripture? How can Islam revere and love Mary more than those that love Jesus Christ as their Lord, Savior, Messiah, etc., when Islam itself does not hold to these beliefs? Actually, Islam denies Jesus is the son of God.

To believe in Jesus is to believe in Mary and all that was spoken of her in the scriptures.

So by saying any non-christian group that holds that Jesus is not the Messiah, the son of God, but claims to love Mary, moreso than those that do say they do believe all the truths of Jesus, is really not saying anything at all.

 

[SIA]

I made the statement that Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than Protestants do. For this, I was called presumtuous.

I’d like to give Protestants a format to defend themselves against my statement.

Now, I can’t speak for Muslims in detail, but I know that they love and revere Mary. They even have an entire book of the Koran devoted to her. I’ll hope that a Muslim can enlighten us all (and if neccessary, correct me if I’m wrong on what I believe they feel for her) on how their faith sees Mary, the mother of Jesus.

As for Catholics, I can’t speak for every last Catholic, but generally speaking, we love her. We have no issues with veneration of Mary. We see her as our mother (as Jesus is our brother through our common Father Who is God, The Father).

We ask her to pray for us.

We defend her when others belittle her or impune her reputation.

We are jealous for her image to the world and guard it against misrepresentations.

We praise her.

We mention her regularly.

We have always felt this way, since the beginning of Christianity.

Former Catholics who’d go on to be the church fathers of the Protestant Reformation also venerated Mary (Luther, Calvin, Zwigli, etc…).

The non-veneration of Mary was created post Reformation by anti-Catholic Protestants and is a relatively new practice having only been employed during the last 400 years.

But for 2,000 years, Christianity has loved and revered the woman who gave up her only born Son so that man would be saved.

We are grateful to her.

Jesus, Who is The Life, came through her womb, therefore, our eternal Salvation Who is Christ came through her womb…her womb gave us life…just like a mother does to any child born naturally.

Scripture calls anybody who follows Christ the children of the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ (Revelations 12:17).

So, we love her as Jesus Himself loved her…as our own mother.

Catholics, if you can add onto what I said or just want to offer your own words and/or corrections, by all means please do.

Non-Catholic Christians, the question is to you…am I wrong to assert that Catholics and Muslims love and revere and hold Mary in higher esteem than you do?

If so, I welcome your explanation & correction because I would love to be wrong about this one. I really would. I would really like to know that you consider Mary (as The Scriptures tell us) the mother of all Christians and that you love her even more than Muslims do.

Of course, we can all define for ourselves what love is and just so that there’s no confusion, I’ve listed what I believe Catholics feel for Mary as a common faith (and can be corrected by Catholics if need be).

Do Catholics and Muslims love Mary more than non-Catholic Christians?

The amazing thing here is that you a Christian I am assuming would spend all this time to drive home your point about Mary which is obviously vitally important to you but yet you fail to even recognize amongst this our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who alone saves us and who alone is everything past present and future and who alone deserves our deepest praise and worship.

 

[Syele]

I never stated that you “didn’t” love Mary, did I?

YOu do seem to be claiming you know HOW MUCH I love her. And frankly, I find that preposterous!

So, you believe in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” Church?

:clapping: And that’s sincere. Welcome to Christianity’s definition of The Catholic Church.

Been there most of my life. Shall we welcome everyone to things they’ve always been in?

I never denied you were a non-Catholic Christian either (a “protestant”).

You were going on about Anglicans and Episcopalians not being protestant. Am I no longer Episcopalian because you decided so?

There you go again, misrepresenting me. I never said that you didn’t love Mary…just the Muslims love her more than your religious group does.

Again, either way you seem to be claiming supernatural knowledge of how much I and my fellow protestants love someone.

Show & prove: Where did I state that they weren’t protestants?

2ndGen:

Quote Syele:
There are thousands Anglican and Episcopalian Churches named for Mary, A simple Google search would have told you that. (these ONLY cover the exact names in the quotes, skipping ones called something else that have her name in them)
You’ve got to be kidding me right? Anglicans and Episcopalians are catholic churches (small c). Not only that, Anglicans have a letter of agreement on Marian veneration.

No I wasn’t kidding. They are protestants.

Maybe you missed it, but of the 3 churches used as supposed proofs, two of them were named after women members of their respective congregations and “not” after The Virgin Mary.

Singing Beauty gave you three more. Didn’t you read her post?

But you’re welcome to post 2 more examples to meet the standard 3 proofs to reasonably support what you proclaim. If there are so many, just post two (with citable sources of course so that I can either confirm or deny your proofs just as I did with singingbeauty’s).

Well If I give three more, that would add up to 7 (subtracting the 2 you rejected as not being really the Blessed Mary). Will you be asking for 3 more besides that? It is you declaring protestants “Prove” we love Mary more then Muslims. Yet you cite no proof we don’t.

Well, that’s not saying much as proof. The main core of Protestantism is that we can all decide for ourselves “what” to believe and that we dont’ need a teaching entity religiously to teach us (oh wait, so long as you accept The 5 Solas).

You were proving to ME that protestant love Mary less than Muslims. I did not make up the silly argument about Protestant Books cited as Dogma. I dont’ accept the 5 solas either.

Show me 3 Protestant churches that consider them Scripture.

To what purpose? You found one already.

I said “her” not just her name. They are like the protestants that “borrow” Mary for Christmas and Easter who accuse God of using Mary as simply a “mere” vessel, then abandoning her to the world after that without protecting her from sin (even though she protected His Son from death).

A minute ago you were trying to claim they aren’t protestant and therefore love Mary more than average. Make up your mind.

They are definately protestants, but I asked what “Protestants” thought about a church that practices “Catholic” practices.

Probably the same thing we think of Episcopalians and Anglicans, they are our Brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, can you answer my question “without” a question?

you ask questions too. I did not answer only with another question. Why are you allowed to ask questions and no one else? (You can take that as a no.)

These are “Catholic” practices…practices that we were criticized for by protestants. Now you guys are doing it to? So, where you wrong then or are you wrong now?

Deacons & Communion… Baptists have always had them. This is not a new practice.

Retreats… When did Protestants Criticize Catholics for having Retreats?

Can you please cite some sources for these?

This is new to me. Really. I’ve never heard a protestant in my travels across this country refer to ever having practiced Holy Communion.

Do you pray to Saints and to Angels too?

If one appears to me I will talk to them and ask many things. So far that hasn’t occurred. Please state what it has to do with the topic.

 

[2ndGen]

Well, did you find out historically what most followers of Mohummad taught about apostates?

 

[2ndGen]

Lev23…

The questions I didn’t answer were off topic.

I’d be happy to engage you on those points,
but start another thread.

Let’s not mix up why Muslims and Catholics love Mary more than Protestants with why Muslims aren’t Christians.

 

[planten]

Lev23…

The questions I didn’t answer were off topic.

Yes, good advice. And good questions about the way of protestants loving Mary the mother. I hope they do it, as do the Muslims.

 

[2ndGen]

The amazing thing here is that you a Christian I am assuming would spend all this time to drive home your point about Mary which is obviously vitally important to you but yet you fail to even recognize amongst this our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who alone saves us and who alone is everything past present and future and who alone deserves our deepest praise and worship.

Considering that this thread isn’t about salvation,
you shouldn’t be amazed.

For you to accuse me of failing to recognize Jesus’ role in salvation is extremely rude and pressumtuous of you. You shouldn’t assume.

As for your comment on praise, Scripture teaches us that any man that pleases God is worthy of “praise”, so who’s wrong there? You or The Holy Bible?

Was Gabriel wrong to “praise” Mary in Luke 1?

Why don’t you start two threads…one on “praise” and one on “salvation”.

You’ll probably get not responses there because Catholics were the ones who revealed the Doctrine of Salvation to humanity.

As for the topic of praise, well, Scripture easily answers that:

Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence
and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

 

[2ndGen]

Yes, good advice. And good questions about the way of protestants loving Mary the mother. I hope they do it, as do the Muslims.

Assalam Alaikim Planten.

Thank you.

Thank you for speaking on the subject.

I’ve been here defending Islam’s reverence and honor for Maryam. Alone.

I hope that you can persuade some of your Islamic brethren to comment on this thread and that together, we can show that love knows no denominational definition or restriction.

Jesus never taught that we had to be of one religious denomination to be good to and respectful of each other.

In fact, He taught us to love our enemies, so how much more could we love those that loved His Blessed Mother?

If I was wrong in anything I’ve posted about how Muslims view Maryam, by all means, correct me and I will accept this correction.

Pax.

 

[fbl9]

sorry 2ndGen i can’t be of any help to you because i never knew that Muslisms even considered anything that had to do with Jesus. Mosttly what i knew of the Muslim faith came from evangalics so we know how loving that would be.

 

[2ndGen]

Y

Ou do seem to be claiming you know HOW MUCH I love her. And frankly, I find that preposterous!

 

[2ndGen]

sorry 2ndGen i can’t be of any help to you because i never knew that Muslisms even considered anything that had to do with Jesus. Mosttly what i knew of the Muslim faith came from evangalics so we know how loving that would be.

Oh, this thread pretty much writes itself!

LOL!

 

[Singinbeauty]

Contadictions, contradictions, contradictions…

2ndGen, you are a bit too confused my friend. Either that or just a little over zealous. Take a breath and read what you have written so far. You first start off the thread by throwing your protestant (whomever you consider them to be) brothers and sisters under the bus and praising muslims. Your loyalty to family is appalling.

You remind me of an over zealous protestant who races in with half baked facts and ignorant knowledge of what they believe catholics are about. You reverse the roles and you are a shining example of this.

First you assert that one of the best examples that muslims love her more is that they even have a mosque named for her. I show you several (not counting the two that came up short) but you discount them and say Episcipals and Lutherans and even the Baptist church I named are not protestant, in fact they are in deed catholic so in your mind my proof is just examples of what you are stating. Then you go and say they are in fact protestants and have no idea where we got the idea that they weren’t.

BTW, I really do love how Syele quoted one of your posts to show your contradiction and then you don’t even address it. Kind of hard when someone shows you where you were wrong, isn’t it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

Show & prove: Where did I state that they weren’t protestants?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syele:

There are thousands Anglican and Episcopalian Churches named for Mary, A simple Google search would have told you that. (these ONLY cover the exact names in the quotes, skipping ones called something else that have her name in them)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGen:

You’ve got to be kidding me right? Anglicans and Episcopalians are catholic churches (small c). Not only that, Anglicans have a letter of agreement on Marian veneration.

I understand that you don’t know much about who or what protestants are. If you have any questions, let me know. I will try to answer them as truthfully and informative as I can.

In the meantime, how about spending more time building up the relationship between catholics and protestants than tearing it down. You might learn something.

 

[Syele]

You said, “Muslims love Mary more than Protestants.”

If you have forgotten you said this, reread the thread. I do believe you said it more than once.

I love Mary very much. Muslims don’t even think she is the Mother of God. I am Protestant. I know she is the mother of Jesus who is fully man and fully God. Maybe a few Muslims love her more than I do, I can doubt it since they don’t even know she is the mother of God, But how can I know they all love her more than me and people like me? Only God knows this. Not you or I or anyone else. This is why there are no books and websites proclaiming, “PROTESTANTS LOVE MARY MORE THAN MUSLIMS” We aren’t so presumptuous as to say we know the hearts of all the Muslims. We do not claim to be God.

As for you claims I’m putting words in your mouth you have gone and said it again:

Wait, singingbeauty provided 3 “catholic” churches. Not “Protestant” churches. Now I remember.

Are they Protestant or NOT?? make up your mind. those were a Baptist Church and two Lutheran. You are honestly telling me *Lutherans *are not protestants?!? They are named after Luther!
You can’t just change all the definitions of words to suit what you want to believe.

But that’s just a minority. The overwhelming majority non-catholic Christian churches just see Mary as a “mere” human with no special recognition due t her.

Prove it.

 

[2ndGen]

You first start off the thread by throwing your protestant (whomever you consider them to be) brothers and sisters under the bus and praising muslims. Your loyalty to family is appalling.

 

[Syele]

**2ndGen,

**Please stop talking in circles and answer these questions straight:

What is a Protestant?

How can you prove one group does or doesn’t love someone more than the other without being all knowing?

 

[2ndGen]

I love Mary very much.

Enough to venerate her as Islam does?

Muslims don’t even think she is the Mother of God.

Guess what…neither do most Protestants. Plus, the debate isn’t what they believe, but what they feel.

I am Protestant. I know she is the mother of Jesus who is fully man and fully God. Maybe a few Muslims love her more than I do, I can doubt it since they don’t even know she is the mother of God, But how can I know they all love her more than me and people like me?

Easy, see the videos I posted by them. Let them tell you how they feel about her. These where Imams and Islamic teachers that were expressing their love for her and in a way that Protestants never have.

Only God knows this.

Amen! He does now that Muslims love Mary more than Protestants.

Not you or I or anyone else.

Speak for yourself. I grew up around Protestants (having 5 pastors in my family) and have spent the last 20 years knowing Muslims and I’ve traveled across the US from coast to coast. My experiences are not limited to a 20 mile radius and consistantly, I’ve seen Muslims light up when I tell them that I’m Catholic and immediately, they bring up Mary and speak about her with so much love and with reverence.

This is why there are no books and websites proclaiming, “PROTESTANTS LOVE MARY MORE THAN MUSLIMS” We aren’t so presumptuous as to say we know the hearts of all the Muslims. We do not claim to be God.

It’s obvious. The obvious isn’t debated over. The world knows that Muslims love Mary more than Protestants do.

They’ve told me personally how disgusted they are with Protestant attacks on Mary by completer churches as a united group of Christians. They cannot understand how they can have so much hatred and animosity towards her and why they spend so much time putting up websites devoted to one thing…belittleing her and impuning her reputation.

As for you claims I’m putting words in your mouth you have gone and said it again: