Low birth rates

[john_ennis]

Well, I have 7 kids and I’m far from a millionaire.

In general each extra kids has cost me maybe an extra 400-800 per YEAR. You don’t have to buy a new wardrobe for each kid. We have storage bins of clothes by size. We are lucky that all our kids were born in winter so sizes and seasons match between each kid. We also have people who are happy to give us their kids clothes. Until about 4, most kids outgrow their clothes quicker than the clothes wear out.

Baby food? Mother’s milk is essentially free and even when on solids it’s maybe $10 -20 per month until they are teens.

Child care, school education, books, uniforms? Zero cost. We home school and use the library. We spend maybe $200 per year for new materials, our local “free” public school has about $100/year/kid for “book fees” to use 10 year old text books. Child care would cost us more than my wife would make so she simply doesn’t work outside the home.

Obviously cost of living in different parts of the world will very, but I think most people grossly over estimate the cost of multiple kids. I always say the first one is the most expensive and then they get cheaper to raise as numbers go up.

So so true. You do what you have to do, and if you waited till you were sure you had the financial and emotional resources for kids, most us wouldn’t have a single child ever.
Instead you take a leap of faith and end up with seven kids (we do too), hardly understanding how you can possibly make it work, but somehow you do it.
Not to assume, of course, that we know others’ situations, or that they may not have good reason for restricting their family size.
But the culture sure does teach fear about the whole thing (a convenient excuse to act selfishly). Teaching in high school, I know kids are repeatedly warned about how many hundred thousand dollars it takes to raise two or three kids. And I love the lesson we teach them as,acrossthe country, we send these teens home with mechanical babies to keep them awake all weekend and teach them that the most significant thing about caring for babies is how annoying they are.

 

[rainereli_rod]

What a beautiful examples !!. God bless their families

washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/13-kids-13-college-educations-not-rich-retiring-early/2016/08/08/3abe7cec-38b4-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html

catholicmatch.com/institute/2016/08/an-online-meeting-turns-into-a-family-of-twelve/

I hope someday myself bring childrens to God like those men.

Psalm 127:3-5

3 Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him. 4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one’s youth. 5 Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their opponents in court.

 

[Usige]

But the culture sure does teach fear about the whole thing (a convenient excuse to act selfishly). Teaching in high school, I know kids are repeatedly warned about how many hundred thousand dollars it takes to raise two or three kids. And I love the lesson we teach them as,acrossthe country, we send these teens home with mechanical babies to keep them awake all weekend and teach them that the most significant thing about caring for babies is how annoying they are.

True. It seems they use this scare tactic to reduce teen pregnancy, but unfortunately it follows people into their marraiges. The mechanical babies (we only had sacks of flour when I was in school) never turn into kids that cuddle in your lap and tell you they love you. They don’t give you a heart melting smile when you pick them up after they fall down and scrape their knee. They reinforce children as nothing but hard work and misery. It doesn’t just reduce teen pregnancy, but likely also reduces (or atleast delays) adult pregnancies.

 

[rainereli_rod]

True. It seems they use this scare tactic to reduce teen pregnancy, but unfortunately it follows people into their marraiges. The mechanical babies (we only had sacks of flour when I was in school) never turn into kids that cuddle in your lap and tell you they love you. They don’t give you a heart melting smile when you pick them up after they fall down and scrape their knee. They reinforce children as nothing but hard work and misery. It doesn’t just reduce teen pregnancy, but likely also reduces (or atleast delays) adult pregnancies.

Amen brother. Thanks for your thoughs

 

[ThePCWife]

I’m sorry for your experience. I appreciate your posts. May God bless your family. There are many families like ours in the US, and our experiences are true and valid. I’m sorry so many feel threatened by your witness.

nobody feels “threatened”, but conditions are different now than when the large-family posters here started their families and acknowledging those massive changes is kinder than acting like it’s forever 1985 or 1995 or even 2005. as i said, married women are having bigger families, so obviously people are getting more and more open to life. but as someone who listened to people who gave the kind of advice the large-family posters have in this thread and was broken by it failing over and over again, i’d love for others to avoid that pitfall and start out on better footing, no matter what their incomes when they marry and begin trying to have children.

 

[Sarcelle]

So so true. You do what you have to do, and if you waited till you were sure you had the financial and emotional resources for kids, most us wouldn’t have a single child ever.
Instead you take a leap of faith and end up with seven kids (we do too), hardly understanding how you can possibly make it work, but somehow you do it.
Not to assume, of course, that we know others’ situations, or that they may not have good reason for restricting their family size.
But the culture sure does teach fear about the whole thing (a convenient excuse to act selfishly). Teaching in high school, I know kids are repeatedly warned about how many hundred thousand dollars it takes to raise two or three kids. And I love the lesson we teach them as,acrossthe country, we send these teens home with mechanical babies to keep them awake all weekend and teach them that the most significant thing about caring for babies is how annoying they are.

Children are hard work. They are challenging and force you to think beyond yourself. I don’t see why we have to sugarcoat the truth.

That much is true.

However having children does not automatically cure selfishness. Selfish people become selfish parents.

I would rather that people have no kids than have kids and not bother to take care of them properly.

 

[Usige]

Children are hard work. They are challenging and force you to think beyond yourself. I don’t see why we have to sugarcoat the truth.

That much is true.

However having children does not automatically cure selfishness. Selfish people become selfish parents.

I would rather that people have no kids than have kids and not bother to take care of them properly.

It’s not an issue of telling people that kids can be hard work, but rather there is a tendency to a one sided portrayal of having children. It is the utter lack of balance in the message that I find sad.

 

[Xantippe]

Children are hard work. They are challenging and force you to think beyond yourself. I don’t see why we have to sugarcoat the truth.

That much is true.

However having children does not automatically cure selfishness. Selfish people become selfish parents.

Ain’t that the truth.

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s not an issue of telling people that kids can be hard work, but rather there is a tendency to a one sided portrayal of having children. It is the utter lack of balance in the message that I find sad.

Well, to be fair these negative messages that we were talking about are aimed at teens right? Well being a teen-aged single mother who has not yet graduated from high school is hard. The intent of these messages is to discourage single teen motherhood. What is wrong with that?

As for your other point, about people taking these messages too seriously even when well established and married, how about a mentorship program in church for newlyweds or even for singles who are discerning marriage? Since you have a large happy family, who could be a better witness and mentor than you?

 

[Xantippe]

Well, to be fair these negative messages that we were talking about are aimed at teens right? Well being a teen-aged single mother who has not yet graduated from high school is hard. The intent of these messages is to discourage single teen motherhood. What is wrong with that?

As for your other point, about people taking these messages too seriously even when well established and married, how about a mentorship program in church for newlyweds or even for singles who are discerning marriage? Since you have a large happy family, who could be a better witness and mentor than you?

Also, the median age of mothers in the US when they have their first child is 25. (The age at first marriage is something like 27–a bit of a problem, that.) I’m not finding a solid cite for the age gap between children in the typical two-child family, but the number 2.5 keeps coming up.

US women are not starting families terribly late–at least not on average. If they stop having children fairly soon after that, it’s not because they carried around a sack of flour in high school–it’s because they have real children of their own and some life experience, and they can see how hard or easy it is for them.

Usige, I think you’re underestimating the influence of conservative religious large family propaganda on people in that milieu. When I was a young bride, that was one of the big things shaping my views on the subject–big families are cheap! Big families are fun! Small families are selfish! Homeschooling is fun and easy! Everybody ought to have a big homeschooling family!

I totally expected to be a homeschooling mother of 4-6, just like all the cool kids. And I was a pretty awesome mother of one. But, even just being pregnant with the second one, life got suddenly really hard, and it wasn’t fun anymore–and I wasn’t an awesome mom anymore. I was just a really sleepy mom who kept forgetting that it was time to change the toddler and kept melting down when talking to her husband…

What I’ve discovered since then is that it really isn’t ever the case that large numbers of people just willy nilly do stuff for long periods of time without there being fairly powerful motives–be that having a two child family, sending a child to preschool, not wanting to homeschool, or whatever.

Being that I’ve been doing this mom thing for the last 14 years, I know a lot of parents of 2-4 children. I don’t see anybody drinking champagne and jetting off to Paris–I see people like me who are tired (and often broke), but trying to do the best for their kids. I was just spending the morning with a mom friend and her two kids. Her husband is more than a wee bit unemployed, and she’s doing food service for $7 an hour, and she’s got her oldest child heading off to college (hopefully) in three years, and she’s worried how to pay for it and trying to figure out how she can bring in more money. None of this is motivated by selfishness.

 

[pensmama87]

Well, to be fair these negative messages that we were talking about are aimed at teens right? Well being a teen-aged single mother who has not yet graduated from high school is hard. The intent of these messages is to discourage single teen motherhood. What is wrong with that?

As for your other point, about people taking these messages too seriously even when well established and married, how about a mentorship program in church for newlyweds or even for singles who are discerning marriage? Since you have a large happy family, who could be a better witness and mentor than you?

Our parish is actually starting exactly this as part of baptism prep for new parents, and I think it’s awesome. I’m brainstorming how we can build it into something to really invite people in and teach them the kind of stuff my husband and I had to hobble around and figure out ourselves. Right now we give a presentation on bringing your family to Mass and practicing the faith at home.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Well, to be fair these negative messages that we were talking about are aimed at teens right? Well being a teen-aged single mother who has not yet graduated from high school is hard. The intent of these messages is to discourage single teen motherhood. What is wrong with that?

Unintended consequences. The reasons addressed to teens still exist in adulthood. A few feet even bigger. The move from teen to adult is a transition that includes determining what lessons taught to you are still true and relevant to your situation.

 

[AClaire11]

Also, the median age of mothers in the US when they have their first child is 25. (The age at first marriage is something like 27–a bit of a problem, that.) I’m not finding a solid cite for the age gap between children in the typical two-child family, but the number 2.5 keeps coming up.

US women are not starting families terribly late–at least not on average. If they stop having children fairly soon after that, it’s not because they carried around a sack of flour in high school–it’s because they have real children of their own and some life experience, and they can see how hard or easy it is for them.

Usige, I think you’re underestimating the influence of conservative religious large family propaganda on people in that milieu. When I was a young bride, that was one of the big things shaping my views on the subject–big families are cheap! Big families are fun! Small families are selfish! Homeschooling is fun and easy! Everybody ought to have a big homeschooling family!

I totally expected to be a homeschooling mother of 4-6, just like all the cool kids. And I was a pretty awesome mother of one. But, even just being pregnant with the second one, life got suddenly really hard, and it wasn’t fun anymore–and I wasn’t an awesome mom anymore. I was just a really sleepy mom who kept forgetting that it was time to change the toddler and kept melting down when talking to her husband…

What I’ve discovered since then is that it really isn’t ever the case that large numbers of people just willy nilly do stuff for long periods of time without there being fairly powerful motives–be that having a two child family, sending a child to preschool, not wanting to homeschool, or whatever.

Being that I’ve been doing this mom thing for the last 14 years, I know a lot of parents of 2-4 children. I don’t see anybody drinking champagne and jetting off to Paris–I see people like me who are tired (and often broke), but trying to do the best for their kids. I was just spending the morning with a mom friend and her two kids. Her husband is more than a wee bit unemployed, and she’s doing food service for $7 an hour, and she’s got her oldest child heading off to college (hopefully) in three years, and she’s worried how to pay for it and trying to figure out how she can bring in more money. None of this is motivated by selfishness.

Yes. I spent half of my pregnancy bedridden because I was so exhausted. And we couldn’t afford the anti-nausea medication, which wasn’t covered by our insurance, so I had to just suffer through it. I would love to homeschool, but I’m having more and more doubts about it, especially with almost all of the groups in the area being self-proclaimed “secular” groups, and the others appearing to be coops where your child takes actual classes. We absolutely can’t afford our parish school’s high tuition ($7.5k for the first child, $6k for each additional), and I’m not sure how much aid they’d offer, if any. So we may end up having to move to a neighborhood with a good school district, which is much more expensive. God bless those who can manage to homeschool a huge family and/or live on a shoestring to provide for them. This thread has really made me think and I’ve realized I value more of a balance.

 

[Sarcelle]

Unintended consequences. The reasons addressed to teens still exist in adulthood. A few feet even bigger. The move from teen to adult is a transition that includes determining what lessons taught to you are still true and relevant to your situation.

Did you read my entire post?

In the second paragraph I addressed the unintended consequences and how to counteract that. I think it is a lot more proactive approach than sitting around complaining why people have less kids.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Did you read my entire post?

In the second paragraph I addressed the unintended consequences and how to counteract that. I think it is a lot more proactive approach than sitting around complaining why people have less kids.

My apologies. I think I accidentally cut off part of my earlier reply.

Basically, I am honestly wondering if the vast majority of people want several kids any more even if it wouldn’t break the bank (in their opinion). Thinking of quite a few people I know that flat out don’t want kids. Some due to required lifestyle changes, some feel they just lack motherly/fatherly instinct or desire, and a number of them just “don’t like kids”. One friend went so far as to get a vasectomy even though he has no children or gf/wife.

Basically, like marriage I wonder if children is on it’s way to being a hard sell.

 

[Sarcelle]

My apologies. I think I accidentally cut off part of my earlier reply.

Basically, I am honestly wondering if the vast majority of people want several kids any more even if it wouldn’t break the bank (in their opinion). Thinking of quite a few people I know that flat out don’t want kids. Some due to required lifestyle changes, some feel they just lack motherly/fatherly instinct or desire, and a number of them just “don’t like kids”. One friend went so far as to get a vasectomy even though he has no children or gf/wife.

Basically, like marriage I wonder if children is on it’s way to being a hard sell.

I am one of those that lack the motherly instinct. I never get along well with kids even as a child myself. I preferred the company of adults and teens to children when I was a child myself.

But then, I am not married.

 

[Rau]

Most military families I know have 3+ kids…We are expecting #9 and still won’t be the largest family just in my husband’s unit. One family has 10, two have 11, and one has14. People who truly want large families find the way to make it work regardless.

How do you account for such a high concentration of families (all in a single military unit) wanting such a relatively large number of children?

 

[Rau]

…We cook 3 meals a day, every single day. We never feel hunger. My teens especially eat A LOT, and our grocery bill has never exceeded $500 a month (about $17 a day). And that’s with a family of 10 big eaters.

30 meals for $17; 3 meals for $1.70; $0.57c per meal - that is impressive.

 

[bitterhope]

How do you account for such a high concentration of families (all in a single military unit) wanting such a relatively large number of children?

Several things go into it. It’s not all that uncommon for military families to have 4+ kids. Many go into the Army for the benefits because it allows for many kids. Part of it is that they have multiple deployments–that ALWAYS brings babies. Another reason is his unit has several immigrants in it. My husband and two others from Mexico, his platoon sgt is from Ghana, a spc fro Nepal, several from Guam and other pacific islands, one from Nigeria, and I don’t even know how many from Puerto Rico. Many of the native born US citizens are from southern states where more large families exist. Most are evangelical or fundamentalist Christians. Another thing that contributes is several soldiers have multiple women as the mothers of their children. Several have children out of wedlock. Others have been married multiple times. The largest family though is a long time married, white Catholic couple with just one mom and one dad. Now there are also gay married couples with kids, several of which are combined families as well. Another contributing factor is we are stuck in the “black hole of the Army,” meaning many people get stationed at this post and do 12-20 years without a single move, especially those with a family member in the EFMP program (Kids or spouses with health, behavioral, developmental, mental, or other issues). Often the services offered here are not found at other posts, or they aren’t as good, so the Army kind of keeps us here instead. This has been our longest assignment due to cardiology services my kids get here. It’s really impossible to p(name removed by moderator)oint one specific reason, but this post has several 5 bedroom homes (and building more) which are hard to come by at most posts, as well as being one of only two stateside Army posts with PreK-12 grade schools on post as well. I have a feeling the military lumps us here for their own reasons. It is a post that tends to have a constant deployment cycle and the hospitals both on and off post deliver a combined 100 babies a month on a slow month. Babies boom right before AND right after units return. Im sure all of it contributes and I’m sure there are other reasons as well. Large families are not anything that receives a second look on post because there are many of us.

 

[bitterhope]

30 meals for $17; 3 meals for $1.70; $0.57c per meal - that is impressive.

Thank you. Tonight is black eyed peas with onions, tomatoes, jalapeños and bacon, corn tortillas, and baked potatoes since we’re out of rice but usually we have rice with this meal. We start each dinner with salad and that helps fill up tummies, keep fights at a minimum, stretch the main meal, and makes sure they get their vegetables.